FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: toby14483 on March 27, 2007, 02:03:44 AM
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This might be more at home in the control section... not sure. I guess I'll find out.
We have recently been having a bit of a set-to with our Sub over use of Tactical Modes (Oscar Offensive - Delta Defensive) during stop messages.
Our AL/FF put back a False Alarm Good Intent stop message but failed to mention that we were Offensive... Upon hearing this the Sub was less than pleased.
AL/FF promptly checked the message logs for quite a few other FA-good intent incidents, and only 1 or 2 out of 20 or 30 included it.
Anyone got any clues to who uis right/closest to the mark or ammunition to hurl at the big bad sub?
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Doesnt a stop for false alarm good intent mean that you are not in any firefighting mode at all- there is no fire and there is no firefighting to be done? Dynamic risk assessment at work. Sounds like the Watch manager trying to put someone down for the sake of it.
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Got to agree with Kurnal, Stop FAGI means there is no work being done therefore no need for a Tactical Mode!.
Stop FAGI crews at work making up equipment in Oscar Offence mode may be applicable I suppose??.
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Well news that came from the top, says tactical mode should be put back in all Informative messages, but the sub claims it should be put back in stop messages too.... I always thought a stop mean we were...errrrmmmm stopping....
Nice to have views on it though.
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How eould you know if you were offensive or defensive if you werent doing anything?
Perhaps you should say - inactive???
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Toby
I thought that a Stop Message meant that no further resources were required and the fire is under control but not necessarily out.
With reference to a tactical mode for an AFA, it's all about justification - In Strathclyde they are taught to put back a tactical mode with each informative at all working incidents. The dilemma is that do you perceive an AFA as a working incident?
Well if the AFA has actuated because of a fire, as soon as you enter the building you are technically in a hazardous area and therefore in Offensive mode.
You could also say that you are not at a working incident if you are only looking for a fault and there is no sign of fire. I suppose that it would depend on the guidance given from each Fire and Rescue Service as to whether a tactical mode should be declared at AFA's.
Personally, I could always justify declaring an offensive mode at AFA's as I have known of a "FF's investigating" message to be sent back and the incident quickly escalated to 22 pumps and ended up a car park!
Brian - you cannot have an 'inactive mode' as a lot of my friends would declare this in relation to certain individuals at all incidents and this would cause confusion.
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We pass the tactical mode in all messages, informatives and stops. It has to be int he stop as well as not every incident has an informative and the tactical mode may change. Also to Toby the Stop is EXACTLY as toidi says - it means simply we require nomore resources - stop any other resources coming, being the derivation. It DOES NOT mean we are stopping.
As toidi says there is no 'inactive'. The tactical mode is a declaration of the operational mode being used, and is there as a means of recording the risk assessement that the IC has made. In an false alram situation there is no operational mode in use, the risk assessment being that for an operational incident, on identifying that there is no fire no risk controls are required and so no operational mode. So FA messages shouldn't require declaration of tactical mode. It may be that the FRS is making the mode required for all messages as part of familiarising people with their use, but it seems that adopting them when there is no mode in use like at a FA) is likely to confuse. Difficult enough making peopel aware of what transitional means, or when offensive applies when not in the building, let alone why they are using the mode declaration when none is actually being operated.
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Aaaah.... of course. I remember the Radio Message structure diagram I was given early in training now. There was a double underlined bold capitalised bit after STOP MESSAGE saying that informative, or assistance messages can still be used after this if circumstances change. My mistake on that one. Never thought about it since the initial tests and never used it so forgot.
Thanks for reminding me guys.
So what we seem to be saying is, the theory in using tactical mode in all messages is sound, but not needed in certain types of Stop....
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If the message is a "False Alarm Good Intent" I still don't see why you would need to send a tactical mode with the stop message because you are effectively inactive. There is no need to send a tactical mode because you aren't offensive mode or defensive.
Lots of brigades use stop codes these days so they don't need to repeat everything anyway.
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Kaiser
I might be wrong but before you know it is a false alarm, good intent you have already committed crews into a potentially hazardous area to find that out!
so before you put back a false alarm, good intent message, you are in offensive mode as you believe an AFA has actuated because of a fire?
I do agree that a stop code would solve the problem but it would not resolve the reason for sending back a tactical mode and that is to satisfy the management of Health and safety regs that a risk assessment has been carried out and a record has been taken of the outcome!
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This might be more at home in the control section... not sure. I guess I'll find out.
We have recently been having a bit of a set-to with our Sub over use of Tactical Modes (Oscar Offensive - Delta Defensive) during stop messages.
Our AL/FF put back a False Alarm Good Intent stop message but failed to mention that we were Offensive... Upon hearing this the Sub was less than pleased.
AL/FF promptly checked the message logs for quite a few other FA-good intent incidents, and only 1 or 2 out of 20 or 30 included it.
Anyone got any clues to who uis right/closest to the mark or ammunition to hurl at the big bad sub?
Could this be one of those examples of rules being enforced by someone who doesn't really understand the purpose of them? (Knowledge without wisdom)
Peter Kay puts it like this: Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in the fruit salad.
:)=)
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Another way of looking at it ,if your brigade insists on a mode.( we dont use mode on afd.just "no sign of fire investigating" then either a stop code or its a fire)
If you are actively searching out a possible fire,by virtue of an afd you are being offensive.like searching a smoke filled building..-being silly about it ,if you stood outside waiting for keyholder that may be defensive till you get in.As you know mode can change during an incident subject to DRA
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Kaiser
I might be wrong but before you know it is a false alarm, good intent you have already committed crews into a potentially hazardous area to find that out!
so before you put back a false alarm, good intent message, you are in offensive mode as you believe an AFA has actuated because of a fire?
I do agree that a stop code would solve the problem but it would not resolve the reason for sending back a tactical mode and that is to satisfy the management of Health and safety regs that a risk assessment has been carried out and a record has been taken of the outcome!
I hear what you are saying but I personally wouldn't send a stop message until I knew for definate that it was a false alarm good intent for definate. I would send a tactical mode as part of my informative message, possibly as part of a stop message for an ongoing incident which is coming to a conclusion, but if I am sending a stop for a FAGI, then I have already determined that their is NO incident, therefore I can't be in offensive mode.
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Kaiser
How's about attending an AFA and putting back a message " no sign of Fire FF investigating, we are in Oscar Offensive mode"
You have carried out a risk assesssment and logged it with control, which basically time-stamps it!
It is then discovered to be a false alarm so you put back the appropriate code and everyone is happy!
You're right Kaiser with what you are saying and we need to keep it simple- we have enough people trying to make the job what it isn't without us helping them!
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Kaiser
How's about attending an AFA and putting back a message " no sign of Fire FF investigating, we are in Oscar Offensive mode"
You have carried out a risk assesssment and logged it with control, which basically time-stamps it!
It is then discovered to be a false alarm so you put back the appropriate code and everyone is happy!
You're right Kaiser with what you are saying and we need to keep it simple- we have enough people trying to make the job what it isn't without us helping them!
You are proving my point for me, the message is exactly the type of thing I would send, but that is an informative message is it not. The original point of this thread was to all about sending tactical mode on a stop message for a FAGI and not during the investigative phase, if you are still investigating you should definately not send back any message stating it is a false alarm.
When I have 100% ascertained that it is a false alarm good intent and only then would I send a stop message stating "FAGI" but as soon as I have sent the FAGI stop message I dispose of the necessity for a tactical mode as there is nobody inside the building doing anything offensively or defensively.
Tactical mode attached to a FAGI stop message is silly, not necessary and a waste of radio air time. In metropolitan brigades at busy periods, you would probably be ridiculed for wasting the air time on the radio if you sent "Offensive Mode" as part of a stop message for a False Alarm Good Intent
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Are you not in "offensive mode" to enter the building to deal with the situation. When the FAGI is ascertained then it is "defensive mode" as no action will be taken. The incident is then closed when the stop is put back so therefore there is "no mode".
The WC must have nothing else to do when he picks on this one. Can you not get him/her a colouring in book?
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In an earlier message Toidi said :
I thought that a Stop Message meant that no further resources were required and the fire is under control but not necessarily out.
With reference to a tactical mode for an AFA, it's all about justification - In Strathclyde they are taught to put back a tactical mode with each informative at all working incidents. The dilemma is that do you perceive an AFA as a working incident?
Well if the AFA has actuated because of a fire, as soon as you enter the building you are technically in a hazardous area and therefore in Offensive mode.
You could also say that you are not at a working incident if you are only looking for a fault and there is no sign of fire. I suppose that it would depend on the guidance given from each Fire and Rescue Service as to whether a tactical mode should be declared at AFA's.
Personally, I could always justify declaring an offensive mode at AFA's as I have known of a "FF's investigating" message to be sent back and the incident quickly escalated to 22 pumps and ended up a car park!
Brian - you cannot have an 'inactive mode' as a lot of my friends would declare this in relation to certain individuals at all incidents and this would cause confusion.
In Strathclyde they actaully pass a tactical mode in all messages, even AFAs, the basic pretence is that if you are the building investigating an AFA you're in the risk area where a firefighter could get injured, including simple things like falling on stairs etc and therefore you're DRA should suggest that you are in "offensive mode".
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Isn't strange how so much debate can be generated by what we all think is such a simple process. Does this mean that we all have a different take on DRA, the purpose of recording Tactical mode on incident logs and potentially the purpose of a 'stop' message?
Does this widespread opinion represent an erosion of knowledge and experience?
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Old Legend
You are a bad person!
Most already know the answer but the ones who totally disagree with your comments will be the most vocal.
What was the old Shakespeare phrase "Methinks thou dost protest too much"
Mark my words!
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In Strathclyde they actaully pass a tactical mode in all messages, even AFAs, the basic pretence is that if you are the building investigating an AFA you're in the risk area where a firefighter could get injured, including simple things like falling on stairs etc and therefore you're DRA should suggest that you are in "offensive mode".
If this is the way to go I might send messages in future stating "Getting off the appliance OFFENSIVE MODE" since there is a chance a might slip or trip getting down that big step on to the hard dangerous ground, especially if if the hard ground is wet and slippy.
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Kaiser
The Management of Health and safety regs 1999 states that you must carry out a suitable and sufficient risk assessment at your place of work and the results must be logged.
Strathclyde Fire and Rescue are just trying to ensure that their crews are complying with the law as this is a legal requirement.
NO TACTICAL MODE= NO RISK ASSESSMENT=NO COMPLIANCE= NO DEFENCE!
When you are mobilised to an AFA, that becomes your place of work - it really is that simple and whether you agree or disagree, your organisation would find it almost impossible to defend you in a court of law if you never complied with Health and Safety legislation and anyone got injured.
I hope you now understand why crews in Strathclyde are putting tactical modes back at AFA's and it really is quite easy to say "crews in Oscar Offensive mode" at the end of the message.
The hardest thing we find is trying to change the culture which is the same for all Fire Services.
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Why say Oscar Offensive? Oscar is used as the phonetic for the letter O, a shortening of Offensive, as Delta for Defensive. So why say both??
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Why say Oscar Offensive? Oscar is used as the phonetic for the letter O, a shortening of Offensive, as Delta for Defensive. So why say both??
I would assume that at some stage offensive and defensive has been mis heard over a radio
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Fireftrm
When the procedure was issued, it said to declare the appropriate tactical mode and as we are all aware Offensive and Defensive can sound similar, so to confirm the correct one we prefix it with Oscar or Delta.
Very simple, easy to understand with no chance of confusion and I think our radio channels will cope with an extra word in an informative message as compared to other services, don't you?
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I agree using the phonetic abbreviation stops the confusion, same reason we use Oscar, Delta and Tango, but why then say the other word too?? Sure, the radio channels will cope with the words, but why use two when one will do? I suspect a lack of common sense.
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Fireftrm
So you suspect a lack of common sense, do you?
Well we will do it our way and you can do it yours- We're happy, your happy, everyone's happy!
I am glad you are still focused on the important things in life like whether Strathclyde actually use the tactical mode instead of a phonetic abbreviation for the tactical mode and feel strongly enough to accuse the service of lacking common sense!
WHO REALLY CARES WHETHER IT IS AN ABBREVIATION OR THE ACTUAL TACTICAL MODE BECAUSE IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS IT IS NOT IMPORTANT! ( I mean it is not important to me but obviously it means a lot to you)
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Can you just read back and see if you lot sound pathetic or it's just me?, why is it so many of the sensible, valuable discussions on this site get over run with such nonsense?
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Now now Andy, no need to be Oscar! :lol:
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Hi Andy
fair comment-I totally agree, that's why I tried to explain the reason for the tactical mode and also the issues relating to the culture.
I did not want to be 'Oscar'(nice one Lawman) but sometimes you can't change other peoples pre-conceptions so the best thing to do is let other people see them for what they are.
if you want to be totally pedantic you would stress the point that declaring 'Oscar' mode is not really satisfying the Management of Health and Safety regs as Oscar is not any of the Modes used in the Incident Command System. 'Offensive mode' on the other hand is, and to avoid confusion, some services prefix it with the phonetic meaning for 'o' which is Oscar- and therefore say 'Oscar, Offensive' and ' Delta, Defensive'
'Oscar mode' personally makes me think of a Victorian era, Irish playwright
and poet who I believe was imprisoned for gross indecency! (but I suspect I just lack common sense!)
Slainge!
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Can't even believe I am entering into this but.....
We always use a prefix and the word itself ie Oscar Offensive as opposed to just the prefix ie oscar
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I had no intention of starting an argument, or any personal attacks. However, I still can't see why an FRS that uses Oscar, Delta and Tango hadn't seen that these took the place of the full word and so that saying that too wasn't necessary. I do think that a slight lack of common sense is shown in those who came up with the message. Also there is no legal requirement to use a tactical mode. A RA is required in any work done, but tactical mode declaration would not be a RA. What has happened is that FRS have taken the view that declaring the mode in a message is a record that an RA has taken place. This is only partly the case as any record of an RA would need to include the hazards, risks and control measures. Tactical mode declaration is an indication, no more and something of a fudge of the 'recording' that the law would require evidence of in any investigation.