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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: messy on April 06, 2007, 12:16:17 AM
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With prices of FRAs being anywhere between £hundreds to £thousands, how is it possible for a punter to know whether they are being ripped off?
I had a telephone call last week from the RP of a small(ish) industrial workshop/warehouse that I had previously audited
(A modern 'standard' warehouse unit, about 30x20m -two floors , - with mainly non combstible storage and workshop on G fl and admin on 1st fl half mezzanine - low risk and about 9 employed ). The chap had received a series of quotes for a FRA with a range of over £2,600 between them. He was lost and angry and wanted advice on which was the accurate price.
As an IO, I am not supposed to advise him of who (if any) are taking the p, and frankly I couldn't if I tried as the range was so huge
For the Consultants here, I realise that you will not want to be too specific, but how do you estimate your fee? Is it based on area (m2)? Type of occupancy? or what?
Is there a £/m2 price or is there a range (like community charge bands) where if your properties size falls into band A, you pay the price for that Band?
It's too late for me to help this bemused business owner now, but some insight may help me unravel this puzzle and help identify potential cowboys in the future
Come on be brave.......!
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He should have also asked to see evidence of previous similar reports and he would have then been able to see what he was getting for his money. There is a huge variation in the quality and content of a report, the depth of the survey and the competence of assessors.
Compare also the quality of the guidance given where action needs to be taken- whether the assessor takes the time and trouble to make specific recommendations and to suggest cost effective solutions or simply points out deficiencies as many of them do.
And any company worth their salt will volunteer a package of information, methods statements, summary CVs, insurance, clients lists for references and exmples of previous work. Most clients cant be bothered to ask and so are prey to the cowboys out for a fast buck.
We dont advertise ( except a little on google) we are 150% stretched and all our work is through recommendation. One of the major insurance companies has seen what we do and much work comes from their recommendations.
Some work in bands, others by floor area. I work by estimating the time taken to do the job x company hourly rate plus travel. If I give an estimate it will build in a couple of hours buffer, but if possible we will visit and give a quitation first
Time on site depends on nature of building, age, nature of business, whether sprinklered or not (sprinklered buildings always take a fair bit longer as invariably the nature of the risk is out of step with the hazard classification, contents or storage modes) and process. For every hour on site it takes two hours to produce, print and check the report. Then it is delivered to site and explained to the RP.
I quoted and didnt get a job in a building similar size to the one described recently but with basement- we were too expensive at £850. In a normal building of this size I would have expected the fee to have been less than this but on visiting to give the quote I had noticed a few problems - a bricked up exit wih signs still in place and excessive travel distance, steelwork supporting the upper floors was unprotected, chemical mixing and drum filling plant unbunded and gas space heater adjacent, and an area potentially subject to zone classification (DSEAR and ATEX).
Another very much larger distribution centre job I recently quoted for and didnt get because my quote of £1500 too expensive for them - so they appointed someone who quoted a couple of hundred less who did not comment that their mode of storage and contents were way outside the capabilities of some of their 23 sprinkler systems and that their uncaged aerosol storage was a problem.
The building you describe would probably come out at around £450 - £550 in my area for an in depth report, though several competitors can get away with charging three times this figure by employing glossy publicity, smart suited salesmen, a postal address (mailbox) in London, pictures of the Sydney opera house and low overheads employing off duty fire officers on a part time fiddle at £250 per job. All front and no substance.
Yes theres a few of those about.
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The price can vary based upon the expertise of the firm you're using. If you go to a fire engineering firm, their daily rate will be higher because they will employ qualified engineers.
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I price mine based on previous assessments and the time taken on a standard day rate plus travel / accommodation
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I agree with your valuations Kurnal.
One of the problems I am coming across a lot at the moment is the 'retired fire officer' scenario where his/her fee is so low that it makes you wonder how they are earning a living. You then find out that it is a supplementary income to the pension, they have no PI and very little experience because they have come from the 'sharp end' of the fire officer ranks rather than the legislative side. I just wish that people asking for assessments to be done would look deeper and ask for all the thins that you mentioned Kurnal i.e PI, Experience, references, method statements etc etc.
Now I will pinch myself and wake up! Ouch we are living in the reel world and 80% of people will look at one thing, cost.
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So the prices vary. What's the big deal? We live in a free market. I'd be more worried if he got three quotes the same. The same situation arises all the time when one wants a quote for building projects, consultantcy services or the purchase of a car/house/fridge/computer.
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If I were you, I would be very careful indeed about discussing any aspect of prices on this forum. The Competition authorities take a very dim view of competitors discussing pricing structures. Not sure how the relevant law applies to on-line forums, but better safe than sorry, I'd suggest?
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Only trying to help someone make sense of a confused market fishy. I believe to have a discussion in such a transparent and open way would be of no concern. The competition authorities are more concerned over the type of price fixing discussions and conspiracies that take place behind closed doors.
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It would also be good if as an FSO I could give a punter a rough idea of how much they might expect to pay.
Then again it would also be nice to be able to explain to a punter how they could guarantee they get a competent risk assessor for the price, but that's a whole different thread...
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As Kurnal has already pointed out a comptetent assessor should be able to provide examples of his previous works, hopefully some of which have been audited by an enforcing authority, and for all but the simplest of buildings the assessor should have a relevant qualification.
And just to stir things I don't believe riding a red lorry and squirting water for 30 years counts as a relevant qualification.
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I attended a small seminar, where a well established risk assessor speaker, pilloried a consultant member of the audience for not charging enough (who had stated in a discussion their daily charge ) has they were destroying a market ! No mention of quality or standards etc. In line with the discussions on 'on line' RA's this industry had better beware because someone is going to come a cropper, hopefully not at the expense of someones life.
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I agree with AFD, I think it is disgusting that people sell online fire risk assessments, it's just not right. What does the average person know about the complexities of fire safety when filling in a tick list
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I agree Jasper but cut out the "when filling in a tick list"!!
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Only trying to help someone make sense of a confused market fishy. I believe to have a discussion in such a transparent and open way would be of no concern. The competition authorities are more concerned over the type of price fixing discussions and conspiracies that take place behind closed doors.
Up to you guys if you want to carry on the discussion... no skin off my nose!
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I would say the type of discussion here is nothing more than the type of issues discussed in 'A Clients Guide to Engaging an Architect'.
see http://www.architecture.com/go/Architecture/Using/Fees_304.html
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Hi there guys, hope I am not going to bore you but my question is similar if not the same as Messy, the originator of this thread.
I am a former Brigade IO officer and have just retired. I am in the process of starting my own consultancy. I have been approached by a tennant of 2 public houses requesting that I carry out his Fire risk assessments for him. What is a reasonable hourly rate to charge him?
I can supply my email address as I appreciate that this is not the appropriate place to discuss costs in depth.
Thanks
Shaker
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As a serving IO I can fully understand the problems facing responsible persons when trying to choose a risk assessor who is cost effective and competent. Would it be advisable to recommend that responsible persons ask potential assessors which methodology (DCLG guide, BS 8800, PAS 79) they will be using? It might help them differentiate betwwen the professionals and the less professional.