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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: GB on May 17, 2007, 09:32:59 AM
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I am looking for guidance / CoP for fire safety measures in basement car park under 4 storeys of domestic accommodation. Looked in ADB & 9999 with no significant success.
Can anyone assist in pointing me in right direction?
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GB
Try looking through editions of FSE.
Conqueror
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There's a Petroleum Inspectors Association (can't remember their proper name & can't find it on Google) who have a CoP on their website. I won't have access to my copy until Tuesday
It deals with separation, ventilation and other issues.
Was it something specific you were after??
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Try Post war building studies No 28 at http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/DataBase/References/defaultOther.htm it may be a little dated :)
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The site I was after is:
http://www.apea.org.uk/
The Association of Petroleum and Explosive Administration
The APEA is a UK based organisation, drawing membership from all quarters of the petroleum industry, including Regulators from National and Local Government Authorities, Oil Companies, Equipment Manufacturers and Suppliers, Service and Installation Organisations, Training Establishments and many others. It is seen to be unique in representing all sides of the industry and in providing a forum for debate and the generation of technical guidance.
They have published a guide in 1994 on the design and use of car parks. It aint the most comprehensive document in the world, but it's better than nothing
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There is a section on basement car parks in the Approved Document B Volume 2, Buildings other than Dwelling Houses, 2006 edition.
The document can be downloaded from the Communities and Local Govermnet Web site
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It is widely acknowledged that there is little information available relating to fires in car parks- especially up-to-date knowledge of how modern cars react to fire/fire spread between cars etc. The BRE is currently undertaking a research project into this very topic, and a chat with their project leader might prove fruitful.
http://www.redbooklive.com/newsdetails.jsp?id=46
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Peter gives excellent advice. Also, check out what happened in Bristol in December last year!
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Thank you for the pointer Ian. It's a sobering picture. Whilst it seems that the fire started in an undercroft car park as a result of arson, does anyone have further information relating to the spread of the fire?
Paul
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According to reports on the BBC website the car park was sprinklered as well. But the reports say someone has been charged with arson with intent to endanger life so perhaps its not yet time to write off the design solutions in approved document B 2007 and to await the outcome of the BRE study?
And already I am having a forthright discussion with a local authority BCO who is telling me that a design I have submitted in accordance with the ADB is flawed as a result of a recent occurrence. I have replied that it complies with the latest National Guidance published on April 6 2007 and am awaiting his response.
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Kurnal, I believe that the car park was NOT sprinklered - hence the concerns of Avon Fire & Rescue and CLG - and, of course, the fire sprinkler industry.
And are you suggesting that a BCO is applying 'risk assessment' to a project and not simply following a code???
I believe ADB is seriously out of date in relation to basement car parks especially.
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I am sure you are right Ian and we all await the outcome of the BRE study- its long overdue.
But if you are erecting a building today that incorporates basement car parks and the client has only finite funding its very difficult to suggest that a design which in every respect complies with the approved document published by the government 8 weeks ago is an unsatisfactory design.
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The joys of 'risk assessment' and national guidance eh? However, you should also be aware of the number of serious fires in car parks in the rest of Europe - France and Austria in particular (deaths of 5 firefighters due to collapsing structure comes to mind). I understand the French are considering mandatory sprinkler protection of even some mult-storey car parks.
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Had anyone spotted that the ADB has dropped a very pertinent note...
ADB 2002 - 12.2 - 'Note: Because of the above (fire load well defined and not particularly high and well ventilated), car parks are not normally expected to be sprinklered'. This was a significant statement in support of unsprinklered car parks.
This note does not appear in ADB 2006!
Perhaps we'll end up going the Aussie way - install sprinklers in car parks and reduce down fire separation rating of the floors.
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From my Inner-London days, I still recall boarded-up smoke-stained basement car parks beneath residential blocks - no longer accessible to cars. Presumably an issue that still needs 'tightening up'.
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Jon
Gone? I dont think so. Still alive and kicking in para 18.13 on page 116.
And I am relying on this for a current Job just going in for building regs so hope it doesn't evaporate!
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GB, have you looked at ventilation options, as in use jet/impulse fans to provide normal ventilation for CO emmissions, which can be linked up to smoke detectors. These systems typically achieve 6 air changes per hour for normal venting and double up for a fire situation. The idea is that the buoyant smoke is guided to fresh air to allow for escape and give the fire service a clear approach. These systems are in wide use and are proven. Regarding sprinklers in car parks, has everyone forgotten that cars have roofs and the sprinklered water cannot be guided through the windows or under the bonnet. I can offer more info if you wish to email me.
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Well spotted Kurnal!
But why did they remove this note from section 11?!
On a live project, Building Control, and particularly the Fire Brigade, are fighting hard to get sprinklers introduced into basement car park areas on the back of the BRE research that has recently been initiated due to concerns about the fire load presented by modern vehicles and recent car park fires.
Sprinklers would be effective in controlling fire in car parks - remember the reason for employing sprinkler is to contain the fire (that's why we use a fire size for sprinklered fires i.e. we don't expect them to be put out just contained). Why sprinklers would be helpful in a car park is that they would prevent fire spread to adjacent vehicles - this is the critical issue. Dealing with a fire involving only one fire is the objective therefore the fact that cars are designed to prevent the entry of water is irrelevant.
There are test videos available that show fire spread from one vehicle to the next, although due to the spacing of vehicles (and good ventilation) fire spread would be fairly slow (as identified in european test data). News stories tend to sensationalise car park fire stories and don't present all the facts - i.e. fires involving garages below ground with high levels of compbustibles (over and above the car itself) have been reported as 'car park' fires when they shouldn't be lumped together.