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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: bolt on June 14, 2007, 07:29:34 PM
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I can’t write too much at the moment as the FRS is involved but it doesn’t look good for my case. I live in a large house converted to 5 flats of 3 stories which converted and handed over in June 2006. It’s not an HMO. The structure and layout of the building "looks" to comply to App Doc B 2000 spec with 1hour flat fire doors, 30 mins internal, upgraded main staircase, ceilings and partitoning plus sound proofing appears in order. Flats have 1 hour’s fire doors and suitable internal lobbies etc.
This is a long story that’s just plagued with non compliant issues so much so I can’t list them all without writing a book but the FAP is positioned in the electric meter cupboard serving the flats under the main stairs. Also the electrician has wired 2 flats to one zone which I think is totally unacceptable. The flats have ionizations detectors fitted in the kitchens which have been false alarming for 12 months now even so couple occupants have taken ALL of them down. The main panel is serving an optical in each flat lobby even though the FRS said they should be heat. I’m happy with optical for this use except one of the flats for reasons I can never explain has the FAP optical fitted inside the living room and not the lobby. A fire alarm engineer came out said the system is so bad he refused to work on it. Building Control believes building is up to Ap Doc B and doesn’t need any more then flats LD2. The FSO I called out to look knew absolutely nothing technical and despite 2 zones in fault he thinks the system is lovely and left. The building planning permission drawings done by an architect shows smoke detectors in all room flats, kitchens and down stairs main entrance hallway and 2 up floor landing. Clearly the electrician fitted most of it verbatim from those drawings except the upper landing dets are not there. I have made official complaint to the FRS under the RRO because there is no risk assement for this building but they now believe that this is App Doc B 2000 compliant but he wants the staircase protected thus we call on the main FAP again and I contested and said this is non compliant positioning of FAP and zoning. I reminded the FRS of EN54 control and positioning and part 1 zoning but it appears following verbal discussions they will allow this to stay as is. The FRS has instigated notice to get the ions changed to heats in all the flat kitchens but I’m in total shock about the FAP non compliance. To me the case is simple, either its approved to App doc B and thus no stair or flat escape detection is required and if so take the flippin FAP out altogether or its needed for an escape hybrid L2 system and needs to be made compliant including rezoning and moving into the visible safe area. Of course for my safety I much rather have escape protection.
What do you think guys? If the FRS says they are happy with a none compliant FAP install and zoning what are my options?
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Hi bolt
It sounds like you know what you are talking about. Your summary is correct assuming the compartmentation is there between all flats. With conversions of old buildings though it can be nigh on impossible to upgrade the floors to a one hour standard, or to provide the ventilation of the staircases and for this reason often the "stay put" evacuation strategy cannot work safely.
If this is the case then the Building Control Officer would push for improvements to be made as far as reasonably practicable and issue a completion certificate on that basis, but a full evacuation would be necessary in the event of a fire in a flat. Hence the heat detectors in the lobby and smoke detectors in the staircase.
Who is the Responsible Person? Who has control over the common areas? They should carry out a fire risk assessment and determine what needs to be done. The fire authority should be enforcing the fire risk assessment, not getting involved in a technical discussion over whether an alarm system complies and whether it should be approved. The Risk assessment identifies what is needed, the engineer provides and certifies this and the fire service should audit it.
oh and by the way- when it comes to fire many architects havn't got a clue.
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"The building planning permission drawings done by an achitect shows smoke detectors in all room flats, kitchens and down stairs main entrance hallway and 2 up floor landing."
I don't know why architects place detectors and bells on drawings.
The electrician (if he was compitant) should have designed, installed and commisioned the system, and produced the relevant certificates to back him up. The system should comform to BS 5839 Part6 2004, the exact catigory should have been specified by the Architect/purchaser at the planning stage.
You should never put smoke detectors in kitchens, and it's better to have heat detectors in the hallways outside kitchens if the tennants insist on carrying out late night half pi**ed fryups with the door wedged open.
Either way, it is the designer's responsibility for minimising the risk of false alarms.
Ideally, you would have a seperate zone for each flat, but if you had 2 flats on the same level for instance, they could share a zone and be within the BS
The FAP should really be within view as you come through the entrance to the building.
(hope I know what i'm talking about)
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Surely the IO of the FRS is not required to be an expert on fire alarms all he requires is a basic knowledge. On completion he should view the certificate that’s tells him the system is compliant the responsibility lies with the installer. Is this not what third party certification is about?
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That's if the fire alarm engineer/company is third party certificated - which I doubt!
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Edited thread due to sensitive nature.
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"Hence the heat detectors in the lobby and smoke detectors in the staircase."
I personally dont like the use of heats in lobbies. It basically means the flat is an inferno before the alarm is raised and there is a risk of smoke sippage already to common areas. Whenever possible i always push for opticals in lobbies. It also means a flat maybe saved from total distruction if the occupants are out if others in the building can raise the FRS call.
Decent ones can be switched set quite low sensitivity anyway while maintaining a degree of smoke detection without false alarms. For example if you been in Travel Inn or Travel Lodge they are all identical. Everyone of them has an optical vertical mount above the door to provide the L2 protection.
Maybe someone seen something in Ap. Doc B now that states if this is still acceptable or not?
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Hi Bolt
Yes your point about the heat detector in the lobby and in hotel rooms has been exercised in great depth on this forum over the last couple of months.
I agree- multi criteria sensors are now available cheaply and for the ultimate solution install a dual chamber optical with rate of rise and maybe a CO sensor like the Gent SQuad and you have it covered from all angles.
Strikes me though that you didnt need a deal of help from us on the forum to sort out that place you live in. :)
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well im a bit out of touch im not active in the game anymore but did this for over 15 years. I met our Mr C. S. Todd a couple times but im not going to blow my cover:)