FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Guest on July 24, 2004, 08:16:27 AM
-
colin, sorry i havent replied and thanked you sooner but i reckon you know why ive been busy!
the help with the presentation was much appreciated and the feedback from h&s reps showed just how little training they recieve specifically on fire safety issues. we're hoping to put a 'pack' together for all h&s reps to be given by the tuc tutors during the stage 1 and stage 2 courses.
also, i attended a 'round table discussion' last week - no not headed by king arthur (scargill - now theres a fine fella!) - headed by cfoa and drc - on disabled egress from buildings. seemed quite useful, theres a follow up being hosted by west yorks fire service in october(ish) - if anyone wants to attend then contact them ( i dont get paid for advertising - it is far too capitalist!)
seems like salford university are doing some research work. general gist was there is a lot of time spent on access for disabled but little time given considering egress. issues discussed were allowing use of lifts, refuges, evac chairs, signage, notification of alarms etc etc.
dave bev
-
Davey, Good to hear from you!!! I was getting worried about you. I thought that right wing capitalist, Anthony B had had you incarcerated in some sort of torture chamber, such as a joint control where you could squirm in agony as you watch the wee girls competently handling calls from a gigantic area with no problem, contrary to what that nice Scottish gentleman from the FBU said on Newsnight. ( I can only assume he is a lowlander and has never been to see the Highlands and Islands control in Inverness, where not only are the wee girls the friendliest in the country, but the view from their window is to God's own country, and they handle calls from the largest fire brigade area in Europe.) Anyhow, to the point. I have a great interest in disabled fire safety as I think you know. I am seriously concerned about the implications of the new AD M nevertheless. I would be very interested in more info on the conference you mentioned, as would, I am sure, many users of the bulletin board. Could you give us more info. Up the revolution. Andrew for PM! President Ruth for Minister for the English language! Hang people who only implement fire precautions where necessary! Let Glyn be the offical executioner!
-
When did I become a right wing capitalist??????
And as for regional & joint controls, nothing to do with me!
I would agree that far to many buildings are concentrating on giving mobility impaired persons access to a building without thinking how they will be kept safe and evacuated in an emergency though
-
Sorry Anthony i forgot about your name. I meant anthony blair. Davey understood!
-
colin, details are - thursday 7th october 2004 at the royal armouries museum leeds. for info email - alec.martin@westyorksfirefire.gov.uk
01274 655833
seminar - fire safety for disabled people - £125
hope the info is useful
i am pleased to see that you recognise the benefits of keeping the lasses (and lads) of the northern lands in their own backyards and of the immense talents and skills they posess, a skill which is replicated across all emergency fire controls across the uk, and i can only concur with your new found political leanings and recognition of the talents of mr evans.
im putting together a report for the ec from last weeks round table and would be happy to share the non political comments when i get chance to do them!!
anthony b, im sure no offence was meant by mr todd of todd hall, he was of course referring to mr anthony bliar, a politician of some note, i am led to believe!
-
Sorry Anthony i forgot about your name. I meant anthony blair. Davey understood!
Phew, thought my secret was out there!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Davey, Many thanks for this. I know Alec. Like all the best people he is Scottish. Alas, I will be doing a fire risk assessment course for the neighbouring brigade at the time in question, so would be interested in your round table stuff. ( I see the committee didn't take a lot of note of what Mr Evans had to say, so they will be the first to the gallows come the revolution I expect.)
-
I was at an organised chat on this subject last Thursday at the Building Centre in London. Apparently research has been commissioned by the ODPM and events of this nature are being held to inform the researchers of the knowledge and opinions of others. The thoughts that seemed to emerge included: lack of attention to emergency egress when compared with access; lack of knowledge by management and those in control of premises as to their duties for the evacuation of disabled persons; difficulties with many existing buildings; insufficiency of siting a few evacuation chairs on landings and hoping this will be enough; the view of many wheel-chair users that they would rather bump themselves down stairs than await someone to get them out in an evacuation chair; the value of evacuation lifts and the inadequacy of BS5588-8. It was reported that a more user-friendly code of practice (hopefully not another BS one) is being considered to explain all to duty holders and present a range of options to be considered with some measure of hierarchy of approach.
For Colin's benefit, I am of immediate Scottish descent despite living at the opposite end of the UK.
-
Whilst we can all have an opinion on the needs of the Disabled and as competent managers and fully paid up members of the human race the majority of whom care indiscriminately about one another regardles of ability or disability. It would really help in the debate if we could have some objective data on the subject... I still believe we perceive a problem that does not exist in Fire Safety terms. How many times have disabled building Occupants been trapped by a Fire? Why do we think the likelyhood is greater now than ever and requires our urgent priority? Is this not Worse Scenario planning and not at all based on Risk assessment? In respect to discrimination are we not positively discriminating the able bodied by pouring resources into escape systems that accept the likelyhood of Fire and against the prevention, early detection,automatic supression and containment for the benefit of every one. Why not identify a real problem not imaginary ones.. If they are not imaginary lets have the Data to base our judgement on.
-
well said Jim. We will soon have premises that are over provided with control measures based on what might happen. All that is required is a fire management plan that makes effective arrangements for the evacuation and safety of less able people based on the actual assessed significant risks.
The first step of a fire risk assessment is to consider the occupancy as I thought we all knew.
-
Your in danger of getting into the reality of risk assessment here. From a stats point of veiw there is no justification in providing any means of escape provisions for disabled people. Simply there arent many fires and there arnet that many people who need special provisions for escape.
Around 4% of the population are disabled but only a fraction of these cannot use a stairway.
The big problem is not the fire risk, which is very small, but the fact that the responsible person for a building is expected to have some kind of procedure to assist evacuation. Its a big solution for a little problem. :?
-
I do not think we should dismiss the problem too lightly Jimbo. We all complain about stable door legislation, so we cannot base our fire protection strategy on the number of people who died in fires. Happily there arent enough fatalitites to make meaningful data. On that basis, we could virtually dismiss many fire precautions in retail premises since there have only been 3 multiple fatality fires in such premises in the past half century. (But hang on, didnt one of those involve a disabled gentleman in a wheelchair. So, if you want to play with data, one in three mutilple fatality fires in department stores involves a disabled fatality.) Next, we have a new risk created by the DDA. As fire safety speialists we should be responsive to new risks, not reactive to fatalities. Finally, there remain many buildings with no coherent disabled evacuation strategy-it is the next fire disaster waiting to happen. So, even if it is all simple and easy, it is not done (whatever IT is). Finally, ADM brings with it all sorts of new issues for design of fire precautions, most of which are totally cloud cuckoo. So what do we do, ignore it and hope that it will go away or debate it in fora like this?
-
If we accept that something needs doing the next question is what.
Lots of people are uncomfortable with the use of refuges. The idea that some member of staff will assist a disabled colleague sounds good but in practice volunteers can be hard to find.
Once you get to large buildings there is a firefighting lift so things arenet quite so bad. Its the medium rise buildings.
Do we use evac lifts (more expense) or is it reasonable to allow the use of a conventional lift if the management of the building think its safe?
PS does anybody have an idea as to the difference in cost between an evac lift and a conventional passenger lift?
-
It is absolutely essential that we consider the risk..but in context and yes I too complain bitterly about stable doors but that is my whole point we are putting so much effort into shutting the one without a horse that we have no time or resource left to shut the others. I could not believe that one Devon College has a tender document circulating for £14,000 worth of braille safety and escape signs Its crazy out there on this subject.
-
I know of nowhere where the fire emergency plans anticipates that a non-evacuation lift can be use in case of fire. Quite apart from the fact that I do not believe that you can practicably risk assess the chance of power failure in case of fire, you have the possibility of the lift shaft being/becoming threatened by the fire and smoke. I have also heard reports that smoke will trip the infrared beam anti-finger trapping mechanism, so the doors won't close. Management 'thinking' it is safe doesn't make it so.
Richard Whittaker
-
Our population is becoming increasingly elderly and disabled as people live longer, survive injury and illness due to medical advances, etc. Our working population will increasingly contain more disabled persons as it reflects society and responds to the duties of the DDA. Where once many disabled people were confined to Ground floors in some buildings they will increasingly be found in greater numbers throughout newer and modernised buildings. Basically the trend is for more disabled people throughout public buildings, schools, etc, etc. Rather than resting on the fact that the issue hasn't been much of a problem in the past, we should be planning for the future with emergency egress being given as much forethought as access in building design and management.
On converting standard lifts to evacuation lifts, I have just received a quote for about £3,000 + VAT for a small lift serving 2 storeys - but this already had an isolated power supply.