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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Chris Houston on September 05, 2007, 02:34:23 PM
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I do property surveys for clients. I always check that there is a supply of water for fire fighting nearby. I occassionally see that the nearest public hydrant is not marked up - i.e. it has no marking plate.
When I see this, I consider that while the local brigade might know where the hydrant is, a brigade that were called in might not, likewise would the military if a fire occued while fire fighters were striking.
I always ask for my client to request that the brigade mark up the hydrant.
My question is, do brigades also check these things? Are they likely to possitivly respond to my clients when they ask the FRS to mark up a hydrant? In reality how often are hydrants inspected by the fire service?
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Chris,
Working from past experience which may be out of date but doubtless we'll be told. It comes down to money again, fire hydrants are provided at he request of the Fire Service and they have to pay for them. At the end of a water main the WA fits a flushing valve, which is a hydrant under a differnet name, if the FS marks it they accept it and have to pay. Hence flushing valves are not marked.
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In my area the servicing etc is carried out by technicians enmployed by the Fire service.Firefighters no longer carry out the routine maintenance,and therefore don't get to know their hydrants so well.this has been going on for the last 10 years,and even before then it was a 4 year testing cycle,which had been trimmed down from an annual one.Once it went to 4 yearly you could hardly argue that the FF were getting to see many of them(hydrants split between 4 watches,therefore only see a quarter of them every four years,even less again on two pump stations etc.) so why have them check them at all?(Brigades view)-so employ the technicians to do it(cheaper and FF can go and fit SD's.)
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Do hydrants in public areas not belong to the relevant water authority?
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Do hydrants in public areas not belong to the relevant water authority?
No nearlythere, they are mainained by Fire Authority. My brigade similar situation to Pip
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Thanks for the comments so far.
Do people think that a request from a business to properly mark up a fire hydrant would be successful?
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It should be-it is in everybody's interest,and may be that the Fire authority are unaware that the sign is missing/obscure etc.
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I find the cities are the worst for missing plates but its less critical where there there are so many hydrants. I very often add such a clause to a fire risk assessment- in view of a lack of hydrants or access problems that clients should contact the local brigade in order to formulate their operational plan. Not many follow it up though.
Newhall Street Birmingham this afternoon counted 9 hydrant lids within 200 m of the block I was visiting bit only one plate on a lamp post outside no 144 fixed with plastic tie wraps and facing the wrong direction
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You tend to find most Metropolitan brigades now have information about nearest hydrant locations to any incident they attend on the turn out sheet.
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Chris,
Recent story in my locality. I noticed a number of new and refurbished hydrant signs around the area I live in. Included replacement of a couple of missing signs, change to metric dimensions on a cast sign attached to a (wooden) shop-front and the addition of reference numbers to the top of the plates.
But the hydrant in my cul-de-sac was untouched - cast plate on concrete post still with Imperial units and very tatty paintwork. So I rang up the local FRS and was put through to the lady handling the records of hydrant inspections at HQ. In response to my inquiry I was told that yes, the hydrant was checked on 31st May and "We no longer paint hydrant signs." No explanation as to why they had stopped doing this or why they hadn't fitted a new enamelled sign to replace the old cast one to make the hydrant stand out a bit more.
By the way, the flushing valves refered to by Mike Buckley are usually fitted with a lid saying 'WO' which I understand means 'Water Outlet'. The local water company recently relaid a bit of mains near me and two of these, identical to screw-down hydrants were fitted; but the lids were clearly marked with WO when the road surface was reinstated. So I think that if the lid says 'FH' and there's no H-plate then the local FRS should be told.
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I think 'WO' stands for 'Wash out' as it is usually the last outlet in the main and thus used for flushing purposes.It is not unusual to find hydrant covers marked 'WO' and vice versa-maybe just depends on what the water board had on the back of the truck at the time!
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The ones I remember were marked SFV. I assume it means something like Service Flush Valve.
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As we all like to refer to British Standards when discussing "fire safety" issues i.e. If something is "installed, tested & maintained to the BS then it will be ok" perhaps we should refer to the BS for hydrants - BS650 - which recommends that hydrants are inspected on a six-monthly basis!
I suspect that the vast majority of Brigades look at hydrants no more than once a year but the trend is definately going towards longer timescales.
Perhaps this is because the appliances that turn up to premises are now more modern & the crews can use less water (high pressure hosereels rather then 1" main jets) to extinguish fires and are, consequently, less reliant on the hydrants?
Brigades also have the locations of their hydrants logged on the GIS mapping systems and can, literally, talk a crew towards the nearest (hopefully) available hydrant.
Regarding the painting of posts - the Brigade has probably ended up spraying somebodies wall / car as well as a post in the past and had to pay for the damage!
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see link for interesting cooments on hydrants at the Newquay fire:
http://www.fbu.org.uk/newspress/ebulletin/113.php
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As we all like to refer to British Standards when discussing "fire safety" issues i.e. If something is "installed, tested & maintained to the BS then it will be ok" perhaps we should refer to the BS for hydrants - BS650 - which recommends that hydrants are inspected on a six-monthly basis!
I thought it was BS 750 every recruit had to make a list of 10 features of a hydrant and its chamber. Has it now changed?
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As we all like to refer to British Standards when discussing "fire safety" issues i.e. If something is "installed, tested & maintained to the BS then it will be ok" perhaps we should refer to the BS for hydrants - BS650 - which recommends that hydrants are inspected on a six-monthly basis!
I thought it was BS 750 every recruit had to make a list of 10 features of a hydrant and its chamber. Has it now changed?
get real you old dinosaur! :-) don't learn stuff like that nowadays, or flow of water around a pump etc-too many lectures on diversity and fluffy bunnies to fit that in.
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Perhaps this is because the appliances that turn up to premises are now more modern & the crews can use less water (high pressure hosereels rather then 1" main jets) to extinguish fires and are, consequently, less reliant on the hydrants?
Brigades also have the locations of their hydrants logged on the GIS mapping systems and can, literally, talk a crew towards the nearest (hopefully) available hydrant.
Are green godesses fitted with this same technology?
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I believe that Fire and Rescue services stopped hyrant inspections to free up time for fire prevention work, i.e. putting up detectors'
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Detectors don't prevent fires.
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Are green godesses fitted with this same technology?
I think they have all been sold off.
Your right Pip, all those old values gone, we`ve just recieved a 'firefighter under development' who had no idea how long a tank full of water (1800 litres) would last with one main jet working, and therefore not knowing the importance of of finding a hydrant. They don`t have time to teach that on a 4 week recruit course.
Chris, we still need those hydrants my brigades procedures require a covering jet to be placed at the entrance of a building in case of backdraughts.
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Detectors don't prevent fires.
ok if you want to be picky!!! I believe that Fire and Rescue services stopped hyrant inspections to free up time for fire prevention work, i.e. Carrying our youth engagement and working with vulnerable adults by targeting community safety education to these high risk members of the community by carrying out home safety checks which includes 'putting up detectors'!!!
(Personally that is all encompased within the term Fire Prevention)!!!
Disappointing from forum admin!
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Are green godesses fitted with this same technology?
I think they have all been sold off.
Sorry for going off topic........
If fire fighters went on strike, would the army use the FRS equipment? Are they trained to use it?
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The last I heard was that 'Red Godesses' were the replacement, i.e. ex LA & ex lease hire engines from the 80's & 90's, in fatc a few appeared during the last strike. These would provide a more rapid response & better pump & tank capacity, however I don't know about RTC kit & BA as I think it wasn't a kit shortage that was the issue but the lack of BA wearers in the military, only a few trades receive it as standard
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I may be corrected on this, but I think the AFS Green Monsters, (let's not grace them with the 'Goddess' nickname applied by the AFS) were in fact fitted with a 400 gallon tank, which compares very well with the modern appliance. As for a better pump I seem to recall the Green Monster was capable of 1000 gallons per minute through normal deliveries or through the 6" input / output connections (shades of the New Dimension HVP capability). However, the comment about a more rapid response is very valid. The Green Monster drank petrol (in gallons) but never converted the power into forward speed with any enthusiasm.
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Hang on don't dis the Green Goddess, they were never meant for peacetime fire fighting. They were designed for the aftermath of a nuclear attack following the experiences of WW2. Yes they drank petrol but given the era they were built in so did everything, they were slow but they were crosscountry vehicles and they had monster pumps for pump relay work (remember that?).
As a by I remember one hot summer my brigade hired a couple of GGs for grass fire work, we were able to get them in and out of places that would have wrecked a standard fire appliance.
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Despite what BS tests are recommended hydrants are not, to my knowledge, TESTED anymore as a matter of routine because of the problems with contaminating the public water supply. Not with chemicals but with silt. Water pipes will have a degree of settled silt lying in them and this remains relatively static with the normal movement of water through the main. Whenever a hydrant is opened the movement of water is much increased. This, coupled with the effects of water hammer, can disturb the silt which ends up coming through the taps. Complaints had been received from house holder and the practice was stopped.
Hyrants are now usually checked to ensure the pit is not filled with rubbish, that the stand pipe screws in properly and the post and plate is OK.
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Despite what BS tests are recommended hydrants are not, to my knowledge, TESTED anymore as a matter of routine because of the problems with contaminating the public water supply. Not with chemicals but with silt. Water pipes will have a degree of settled silt lying in them and this remains relatively static with the normal movement of water through the main. Whenever a hydrant is opened the movement of water is much increased. This, coupled with the effects of water hammer, can disturb the silt which ends up coming through the taps. Complaints had been received from house holder and the practice was stopped.
Hyrants are now usually checked to ensure the pit is not filled with rubbish, that the stand pipe screws in properly and the post and plate is OK.
Co-incidently, there is an article about this in Private Eye this week related to the Newquay fire.
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Mike, I wasn't dissing the Green Monster, I remember them very well, with a mixture or fondness, admiration and some hostility. My first posted station had a 6 bay engine room (for the 'regular' fire brigade) and a 6 bay AFS Station which opened into the drill yard. This AFS Station had Green Monsters permanently attached and these Monsters were always brought into use when we broke the red ones. (years before Brigade Reserve Appliances were thought of).
We would put our 'full time' kit aboard the Monster (which in fact meant squeezing it all in wherever it would fit) and it was then 'on the run' as a full time appliance. No radio, no blue lights and a ding -a -ling bell. Turnouts involving uphill runs were timed with a calendar. Getting around roundabouts was a challenge of powerless steering over powerless brakes!
But we never, ever broke a Monster. We'd use them, put them back and get them out again when the red engine needed attention.
Your comment about the Green Monsters being for post nuclear attack were spot on. They were designed for this purpose, not for first response urban firefighting.
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Your comment about the Green Monsters being for post nuclear attack were spot on. They were designed for this purpose, not for first response urban firefighting.
Surely not, the ones that I`ve seen have been disabled by a pothole or speedhump.
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Ah but Dave,
all the pot holes and speed bumps would have been erased by the bucket of instant sunshine. The Monsters would then have rolled along miraculously debris free roads (which remained intact despite the efforts of the Bomb), in their mobile columns bringing relief to population of the big cities waiting patiently under the mushroom cloud for assistance. (Performing to design)
Actually I recall the intended purpose of the 6" through delivery was more to do with supplying drinking water than firefighting water.
In the 60's when we used them 'on the run' there were no speed bumps, and pot holes were funny caves full of funny people who occasionally needed rescuing (happliy there were no such potholes in our little corner of the UK). Nowadays of course potholes have risen to surface of the Earth where they apparently lie in wait for errant Green Monsters.
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Some of the issue relating to Hydrant maintenance falls on the fact that to carry out work in the highway, there is a protocol to follow in terms of putting up signs, personnel wearing hi-viz clothing and using appropriately marked vehicles. Unfortunately, parking the pump in the middle of the road with the blues on to protect the crew doesn't quite cut it ..... unless it's an emergency!
There is the matter of cost as the Fire Authority pay for the hydrants and maintenance of them in rural areas.
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Addtional comment to my post #10 and Pip's following post. Found water off this afternoon and noted workmen at the end of the road had dug up the pavement. Strolled down and found they were taking out a WO valve - which they confirmed stood for 'Washout'. Close examination showed it to be a 'ball' hydrant which they were replacing with a BS 750 hydrant. The old WO was fitted in early 1960s when the street was built. Neither of the two contractors had come across one of these before in their 20 years of water works. And guess what - the lid they left behind for their brickie colleagues to fit to the new pit is marked 'FH'!
They did ask me if I'd like to take the old ball hydrant away - I declined the offer.
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They did ask me if I'd like to take the old ball hydrant away - I declined the offer
Well!! and I had you down as an anorak!!!
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Anoraks are comfortable to wear and keep the worst of the British weather off my aging bones.....;)
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I do property surveys for clients. I always check that there is a supply of water for fire fighting nearby. I occassionally see that the nearest public hydrant is not marked up - i.e. it has no marking plate.
When I see this, I consider that while the local brigade might know where the hydrant is, a brigade that were called in might not, likewise would the military if a fire occued while fire fighters were striking.
I always ask for my client to request that the brigade mark up the hydrant.
My question is, do brigades also check these things? Are they likely to possitivly respond to my clients when they ask the FRS to mark up a hydrant? In reality how often are hydrants inspected by the fire service?
i have served operationally for 10 years, in london the hydrants are checked each year. each station has a list of all hydrants split into 4, one list for each watch, which are all tested in the summer months. when a new hydrant(not one being replaced) is installed the water authority inform us it is then added to the list. if we find one that is removed we remove it from the list.
we report the condition of every hydrant in different grades. for example, either usable, defective but usable (ie hydrant plate missing) or unusable,
the local water authority is responsible for maintenance and repair, and as far as i am aware alos the cost as it is part of their network.
if a hydrant is on private land it is their reponsibility to test and maintain
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Do you city guys check the plate as part of your inspections? They seem to be very few and far between in many of the bigger cities
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yes we do check the plate as part of our inspection program. we always report them, thats not to say they always get done. in my experience they're pretty good in london.