FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Guest on August 04, 2004, 12:16:42 PM
-
Doing some research into the Ministry of Defence Fire Services
Can anyone help me?
I understand that the Defence Fire Service is part of the MoD Fire Services and is a civillian briagde very much like any other local authority brigade etc.
Can anyone tell me if they respond to incidents outside their own perimeter fence? ie do hey provide firecover to local villages
The RAF and Navy both have their own proffesional firefighting trades / services but why are defence fireman sometimes found covering airbases instead of RAF firefighters for example?
Is the Cheif fire foficer of the Defence fire service also CFO of the military fire services?
Thanks for your help - its for a magazine article.
-
yes they do
-
yes they do
some are
there is not enough to go around
cfo tend to be either
-
The Defence Fire Service is the MoD Fire Service. RAF and RN Fire Services are a small part of the Defence Fire Service comprising serving members of HM Forces. The civilian wing of the Service were once autonomous groups called the Air Force Department (AFDFS) and Army Fire Service. The air bases to which you refer have always been staffed by civillian members of the AFDFS (Lucars, Lossiemouth, Leeming etc.) The MOD reorganised in the late 1980's (stand to corrected on date) and formed the Defence Fire Service which ineffect sounded the death nell of the RAF Fire Service which up until at least 1987 had it's own training establishment at RAF Catterick. Command and control of the forces element of the DFS has always been under civillian command, the RAF Fire Service was administered first by the RAF Regiment, it has only ever had four serving commissioned officers all of whom were commissioned into the RAF Reg: The career structure therefore for an RAF Firefighter stopped at Warrant Officer. Historically there has been animosity between service men and civillian DFS because the former always got the crap whilst the latter did better and got more money, I think that has subsided somewhat in recent years because of intigration of training, postings and the shrinking Air Force. Naval personnel got an even rougher deal, but hey, if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined.
-
Should have said that you can get the history of the MoD Fire Services from the Central Fire Training Establishment at RAF Manston
-
I think you will find that the DFS was formed in the early '90s, probably 1991.
-
Right thanks for the repolies so far please do keep them coming
So to recap then :-
1) Defence Fire Stations do respond to incidents in the local communties
2) Air Bases have always been covered by civilian fire crews - Ive been told that some raf bases only have RAF fireman
3) The whole umbrella of the defence fire service is commanded by a civilian cheif fire officer
4) Some defence fire cover is provided by contractors who remain under the general term "defence fire service"
-
Just wanted to correct a few inaccuracies in respect of points made by others on this subject
The Defence Fire Service is part of the MOD Fire Services. The MoD Fire Service comprises Military Fire Services too under the general heading of the MoD Fire Service.
Basically this is how it works
1) The defence fire service is the civilian wing of the MoD fire service. The confusing part is that it has three command sections – one for the army , one for the RAF one for the Navy. They do all come under the control of one Chief officer but its normally Divisonal Commanders who are in charge of each command section.
2) In addition to the above you also have the military fire services. The army fire service no longer really exists - there is no trade for firefighting in the army. However the Navy and the RAF do have their own ‘professional’ or ‘trade’ fire services. Again they come under the general umbrella of the MoD Fire Services. Royal Air force firefighters normally protect RAF bases where there are specialist risks such as planes carrying heavy weaponry, however defence firefighters are also trained in how to disarm weapons on aircraft. Basically speaking its cheaper to employ civilians than airmen so some airbases are protected by defence firefighters. The same goes for navy installations.
3) Defence fire service will if requested respond to incidents outside the perimeter fence in the local communities , however its normal practice for the local fire and civil defence authority to request their assistance. In some very rare cases an arrangement has been set up whereby the DFS will respond automatically to incidents in the local community.
4) The MoD Fire Services (ie the defence fire service, the military fire services) are under the control of one civilian Chief Fire Officer. That is to say then that chief fire officer of the MoD fire service and the chief officer of the defence fire service is one and the same person!
5) The Defence Fire Service personnel train in exactly the same way as Local authority fire and civil defence brigades. RAF personnel tend to specialise in Aircraft Firefighting and crash rescue. The Navy arm deal mainly with fires on ships/vessels. Defence fire service personnel train on all aspects, ships, aircraft and domestic fires etc etc. Their rank structure and equipment is exactly the same as used in LA Brigades
If there were more Defence firefighters employed in the UK they would probably be tasked to provide temporary fire cover were there ever another national fire strike. Unfortunately the defence fire service has cut back its numbers over the past few years and there isn’t nearly enough defence firefighters to replace Local authority firefighters. Therefore elements of the Military side of the MoD Fire Services were drafted in along soldiers from the army who are given basic training. I have to say I think they did a fantastic job during the last strike. The RAF and RN provided BA and Specialist Rescue teams. The Army mainly provided the firefighting aspect of the operations.
-
Just wanted to correct a few inaccuracies in respect of points made by others on this subject
The Defence Fire Service is part of the MOD Fire Services. The MoD Fire Service comprises Military Fire Services too under the general heading of the MoD Fire Service.
Basically this is how it works
1) The defence fire service is the civilian wing of the MoD fire service. The confusing part is that it has three command sections – one for the army , one for the RAF one for the Navy. They do all come under the control of one Chief officer but its normally Divisonal Commanders who are in charge of each command section.
2) In addition to the above you also have the military fire services. The army fire service no longer really exists - there is no trade for firefighting in the army. However the Navy and the RAF do have their own ‘professional’ or ‘trade’ fire services. Again they come under the general umbrella of the MoD Fire Services. Royal Air force firefighters normally protect RAF bases where there are specialist risks such as planes carrying heavy weaponry, however defence firefighters are also trained in how to disarm weapons on aircraft. Basically speaking its cheaper to employ civilians than airmen so some airbases are protected by defence firefighters. The same goes for navy installations.
3) Defence fire service will if requested respond to incidents outside the perimeter fence in the local communities , however its normal practice for the local fire and civil defence authority to request their assistance. In some very rare cases an arrangement has been set up whereby the DFS will respond automatically to incidents in the local community.
4) The MoD Fire Services (ie the defence fire service, the military fire services) are under the control of one civilian Chief Fire Officer. That is to say then that chief fire officer of the MoD fire service and the chief officer of the defence fire service is one and the same person!
5) The Defence Fire Service personnel train in exactly the same way as Local authority fire and civil defence brigades. RAF personnel tend to specialise in Aircraft Firefighting and crash rescue. The Navy arm deal mainly with fires on ships/vessels. Defence fire service personnel train on all aspects, ships, aircraft and domestic fires etc etc. Their rank structure and equipment is exactly the same as used in LA Brigades
If there were more Defence firefighters employed in the UK they would probably be tasked to provide temporary fire cover were there ever another national fire strike. Unfortunately the defence fire service has cut back its numbers over the past few years and there isn’t nearly enough defence firefighters to replace Local authority firefighters. Therefore elements of the Military side of the MoD Fire Services were drafted in along soldiers from the army who are given basic training. I have to say I think they did a fantastic job during the last strike. The RAF and RN provided BA and Specialist Rescue teams. The Army mainly provided the firefighting aspect of the operations.
-
Just Browsing,
Yes and no,
1) Yes but only on request or special arrangement (the RAF Firefighters at Wittering for example will turn out to RTA's on the A1 in a reciprocal arrangement with Cambs F&R)
2) Didn't say that, some airfields Lucas, Lossie, Leeming have always been staffed by AFDFS (or civvies), other units Brize Norton, Kinloss, Honnington etc are staffed by RAF Firefighters. RAF Firefighters specialise in aircraft only because of their location on airfields (as do CAA firefighters and local authority bods at airports Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester) but their training encompasses all fire fighting techniques. Some military airfields have a locally employed civillian element on crew working alongside the RAF Firefighters, Akrotiri, RAF G (thats about it nowadays) etc.
3) Yes
4) Yes (Cranwell for example)
The firefighters on board RN vessels are not full time trade firefighters, each ship has a fire party on watch commanded by the officer of the watch. Aircraft handlers on the other hand are fully trained firefighters whose sideline is aircraft turn around, RHAG maintenance, these guys provide fire cover at Naval Air Stations using RIV's and Major Foam Tenders. There has never been a Fire Fighter trade in the Army, the Army Fire Service always comprised of civilians employed locally by the Army, Catterick, Halton, Aldershot etc.
There are over 22,000 LA Fire Fighters in this country, the full time millitary fire fighters never had the strength to cover all these posts, the RAF have always provided specialist BA teams during FBU action, go back to the 1973 Glasgow strike and before.
The military fire fighter has always done well on these occasions, and will in the future, it's part of the job.
-
Again
1) Yep as I mentioned Mil and DFS personnel will turn out if requested by the Local Fire and Civil Defence Crews
2) Again there was an army fire service manned by civilians but that as i mentioned no longer exists it used to be what is now covered by elements of the Defence Fire Service
3) There is a team of fulltime firefighters within the royal navy in fact colin you already answered your own question there - its the aircraft handling teams who also provide fire cover on RN Bases where DFS personell arent utilised
4) Naturally there arent enough military or civilian defence staff to cover a complete my piont related to the work of the DFS who are trained in exactly the same way as LA Firefighters and are therefore possibly best placed to be able to walk straight in and dothe job as it were
5) Again i did point out that RAF and RN specialise in certain areas, they do also take basic training in domestic firefighting as do CAA fire firefighters, UKEA firefighters, Industrial Firefighters etc etc however it is not as intense as the course undertaken by the defence fire service. The m,ilitary brigades train moire in their specialist areas whilst DFS and LA firefighters get a general smattering of almost everything
-
I used to work at Elgin Fire station as a w/t local authority firebod back in the early-mid 90s where we were close too, sometimes worked alongside and just ocassionally socialised with the Fire sections at both RAF Lossiemouth (5 miles distant) and Kinloss (10 miles distant).
My understanding was that Kinloss were RAF and Lossie DFS due to the nuclear capability of the Nimrods stationed Kinloss, although at that time Lossie flew Bucanneers which in the 60s and 70s were nuclear capable but which no longer fulfilled a nuclear role at Lossie.
I was also informed of another reason in that Kinloss was 24 hour and 365 operational and acted as a civilian diversionary airfield whereas Lossie was only a 24 hr base during heightened operations during night flying exercises which were few and far between.
Lossie now however is the largest fast jet base in the UK which has seen an increase in air field activity and to my knowledge is still DFS whilst Kinloss i believe is still RAF.
Why therefore is the busier of the 2 DFS?
-
not sure i understand your question there my friend.
RAF Firefighters are normally stationed at areas where aircraft with nuclaer capability land.
Defence Fire Service personel could also undertake this role. However sometimes at high security bases it is better to employ military personell rather than civilian due to security reasons.
In terms of your question Kinloss being open 24hours doesnt mean to say that the RAF were busier than the defence firecrews.
Remember that the Defence Fire Service comes under the Fire Services Act 1947 and therefore is like any other public service brigade.
In a nutshell Defence Fire Crews can respond to accidents outside their base. RAF firecrew can also however trying to get them insured for domestic work is harder. Plus its rare these days to find a RAF fire appliance in the required Red colour with high viz markings as traffic regs dictate.
So thats possibly why DFS satff were more busier.
Id like to point out that this is not a criticism of the RAF fire crews - they are just as capable as any other crew.
They just deal witgh slightly different policies and procedures that is all.
-
During the recent periods of industrial unrest DFS firefighters trained a lot of military personnel to carry out duties "on the streets" either as Green Goddess crews or BA rescue Teams.
Another DFS task was to "backfill" the RAF fire crews who were removed from their bases and sent for strike duty on the streets.
Why didn't the DFS go on the streets instead of the RAF?
Because the DFS are civilians who are also members of the TGWU and therefore the need to avoid a big stink at the TUC arises.
-
Not strictly true although I agree it wouold have caused unrest.
The truth is that there just isn't enough Defence Firefighters available to man large areas or communities.
-
An accurate description of the Defence Fire Services for you.
The Local Authorities under the 1947 and 1959 Fire Service Acts provide fire Services in the United Kingdom. The principal responsibilities of the Local Authority Fire Service (LAFS) is to provide within its area of responsibility a fire brigade, necessary equipment and trained personnel to meet all normal requirements. Ministry of Defence Fire Services (MOD FS) are established to cover special risks where local authorities do not have the specialist equipment, where time is a critical factor in saving life or where time losses due to fire would have a significant effect upon the operational role of the armed forces, therefore, MOD FS can be provided on both flying and non-flying establishments throughout the UK or theatres overseas. Fire Service personnel can either be Military, civilian or locally employed civilians overseas.
Pre Defence Fire Service
The origins of the MOD FS can be traced back to Navy Dockyard Fire Brigades that were first set up in 1958 and, Army Fire Brigades at Aldershot that were established in 1864, following disastrous fires in timber hutted single service sleeping accommodation of that era. For further information of individual services see case files provided.
Headquarters Defence Fire Services / MOD Fire Services
The DFS is part of the MOD Defence System, with its headquarters located in London. The organisation is civilian manned headed by a Chief Fire Officer (CFO). It has a management structure, which is based on the LAFS this has a direct influence on the ranks at which different functions are undertaken. The CFO has overall responsibility for the Royal Navy, Army, RAF Fire Services and the MOD Procurement Executive Fire Service and for Locally Employed Civilians (LACs) and Service fire personnel within the DFS. The current organisation evolved on the 1st April 1990 from the unification of the each of the aforementioned Services into the DFS. In 1994 there was further re-structuring and the Directorate MOD Fire Services was formed to provide the policy for the civilian Defence Fire Service, the Military Royal Naval Aviation and the Royal Air Force Fire Services. The most recent change took place in September 1998, when the Directorate of Safety, Environment and Fire Policy (DSEF Pol) was created by merging the Directorates of these separate disciplines. This major change provided MOD with health, environment, fire and safety under one roof currently housed in London. With regards to safety, all departments are answerable to the Chief Environment and Safety Officer MOD who reports to the Assistant Under Secretary (Security and Support).
The Service has a Fire Service Trials Officer who is responsible for all new items of equipment and the update of current stocks of both major and minor fire fighting equipment and personal protective equipment. The MOD also sponsor the Central Training Establishment based at Manston. This training venue is responsible to provide MOD with appropriate Fire training for Military, Civilians and contractorised Firefighters under any circumstances. This training must not be put at risk despite a annual reviews, optimism in the service’s ability to deliver remains steadfast. The risks we cover are immense and extremely diverse, and as the MOD underwrites its own fire losses, therefore, the service must provide a continued and competent service.
Command Structure
Each management structure of the Service is organised on a Command basis; the Navy is based in Bath, the Army are based in Middle Wallop, RAF Benson and Procurement Executive (DPA) Bristol. Stations within the Commands are manned either by civilian or Service personnel, with elements in Germany (LECs), Cyprus (DFS Officer’s and LECs), Gibraltar (LECs), Ascension Island (LECs), Bosnia (DFS Officer’s and Men plus RAF Firefighters) and finally the Falklands (RAF Firefighters). DFS Officer’s undertake the responsibilities for command and control in those location having civilian responsibilities, the Navy and RAF have their own Service structure.
The Command function is determined by the operational role, property type and monetary value and is equipped with specialist appliances according to the range and extent of the hazard to be protected. The management support role of the DFS Officer has increased with the unification of all three Services, which must be taken into account. Under the new Budgetary Management arrangements, all DFS Officer’s are required to submit proposals and operate within fiscal controls dealing with operating and manpower cost etc.
DFS Responsibilities
The responsibilities of the DFS include not only an excessive ever changing population within MOD but also a modern Fire Service Training School, Petroleum Depots, Armament Storage Areas, Major Airports plus many airfields at home and overseas with some of the largest storage depots in the country including those in the civil estate. On the Fire Safety front the situation is constantly changing as comprehensive fire related legislation is being introduced and the workload for Command Staff increase ensuring the new requirements are complied with. The diversity and scope of the Fire Safety Inspections (e.g. from shops to the largest commercial and industrial premises) has necessitated a structural and uniform approach to Fire Safety Legislation. From the 1st Apr 90 MOD untied from the Property Service agency and therefore, the responsibilities for fire safety measure in new buildings and adaptation schemes is now with the DFS. In practice this means all plans and only the MOD Fire Specialists now see proposals.
The DFS Officer now has the supervising responsibility at the building or adoption stage to ensure all works are carried out to specification is in accordance with final building plans. Like his AFS counterpart, the DFS Officer has an undertaking to oversee all initial inspections of plans and buildings with the specific need to ensure that premises are brought into line with legislative requirements.
All training within the DFS is now carried out at the Central Training Establishment at Manston except specialist courses that maintain parity with the LAFS. The structural sequence of training of the DFS for its Officer’s and men plays a significant part in their promotional development.
Special Services are playing a large part in the DFS working environment they fall into two main categories; the first is rescue or tasks aimed at limiting the danger of suffering to humans and secondly emergencies where the service is likely to encounter a multiplicity of situations from Road Traffic Accidents, fire , bomb and explosion damage, gas explosion, major aircraft disasters and finally salvage operation for the majority of the above scenarios. It is pleasing to note that our brigades through local agreements with some LAFS are attending more incidents outside their perimeter fence.
The Officer’s and men of the Defence Fire Service are a highly trained and committed body, which forms an important and integral part of the Service organisation. This provides the MOD with the full flexibility required in support of all operations and exercises. DFS play a full part in supporting operations including the very important task of station recuperation. For this reason it has been found necessary to seek approval for DFS personnel to be classed as “essential civilians” so that all can receive formal training in Individual Personal Equipment (IPE) / Nuclear Biological and Chemical (NBC). They are also called upon to carry out detached duties at very short notice and because of their training they are able to act as a conduit between their Service and LAFS colleagues at any location without any difficulty.
-
Having read all of the comments i have to say i disagree with alot. The DFS receive more training than the RAF? Are you sure? In fact both receive the same and specialise in the same area. Both are trained at the same training school and they can be trained on the same courses!
Somebody mentioned that the DFS did not provide strike cover because they were undermanned and more imortantly in the same union. So to help out they covered the RAF Stations so that the RAF firefighters could cover the streets!! Thanks to the DFS for that. However, nobody mentioned the amount of overtime the DFS were earning whilst the LA were fighting their corner! Maybe these people could enlighten us on this? Did you break even, or did you earn enough to cover your fuel costs? The RAF and Navy Fire Services deploy both home and abroud at the drop of a hat and are as professional as any Fire Service in the world, as was proved during the recent strikes. Whether they agreed with the actions or not of the LA they remained profesional throughout and carried out and excellant job. Whilst i realise that this may sound like sour grapes, it is far from it. The RAF firefighters do a job and do it well, it is not all about money lads!!!
The above represents my thoughts only.
-
Just like to clear up some information on this thread that is inaccurate.
There is absolutely no difference in the way DFS and RAF firefighters are trained. In fact they attend joint Basic, Potential LF, Potential Sub O and Potential Stn O courses. They sit the same exams, which conform to home office specifications and are accredited by the IFE.
RAF Firefighters tend to be more experienced because they are deployed to trouble spots around the world (Falklands, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq) and are the 'first in' on Fire Strikes in the UK, many of them are also Retained Firefighters. At all of their locations they attend structural fires, special services and aircraft incidents a like.
DFS (Army) are also deployed to some trouble spots, but DFS (Air Force) are not.
DFS Officers were deployed on the Fire Strikes to act as advisors for non-specialist Navy, Army, and RAF personnel riding on the GG's.
The RAF Fire Service has its own command structure which is totally separate to the DFS.
DFS firefighters deployed to RAF Stations as cover for RAF firefighters during the Fire Strikes did not earn 'the same as they normally do'. They earned well in excess of their normal pay. They also would not stay in service accommodation and had to be put up in hotels. The ones deployed to the Falklands and Cyprus were earning well in excess of £4,000 per month.
There are many reasons why the DFS firefighters were not deployed on the streets during the Fire Strikes (membership of the FBU and other union’s for one) but the main reasons were these.
1. As they are Civil Servants they would have to have been put up in hotels which must be 'en-suite', have a telephone, TV and tea/coffee making facilities. Unlike RAF firefighters who were kipping on TA Barracks floors.
2. The cost of employing them on extended shift patterns would have been phenomenal. RAF firefighters did not get any extra money for this as they 'are paid 24 hours a day'.
I don't understand the statement that they 'couldn’t be deployed because there wasn’t enough of them'. This can't be true as there are more of them than there are RAF Firefighters.
You may think that I sound bitter, that is not the case, I just thought I would highlight a few inconsistencies.
Dave.
-
The original question has now been aswered, the insulting posts that followed have been deleted. Sorry to those who posted sensible comments, but deleting half a conversation makes it impossible to follow, so I deleted them all.
In future, please note that insulting posts will be deleted and are unwelcome on this forum