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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: 999ianh on October 10, 2007, 09:18:26 PM
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If you think its time for the Government to give a national recognised light or sign to help other road users to give way to the retained when tiring to get though queues of traffic then please follow link this to the Downing Street Web Site and sign this petition, who knows it might get the ball rolling.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/fireresponse/
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It is hard me to know if this is a good idea. Would the public be expected to move forward through a red light for retained? Would retained drive faster or take greater risks? Would be good if the petition made this clear.
Do you think a petition is the best way? Can people not lobby their MP, could the CFOA not campaign or the union. What if we disagree, is there a petition for them not to have such lights......
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This is a GR8 idea but there are issues with it that need to be considered
Say for instance you are in a 2 pump area or larger and you are trying to reach your station as the 1st pump is trying to respond out YOU will cause "Confusion and Delay" as the road may well be all over the place from an unmarked vehicle shooting trough traffic one way and then a big red fire lorry coming back the other
I have seen these signs on Lifeboat crew vehicles but they are usually only going one way to the lifeboat house and the lifeboat does not travel back along the road
Worth discussing further before it goes to mp's
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Not good idea. The thought of 20 maniacs driving through the town at speed sends shivers up the back of my neck. Practically all fires are property fires only ie. no life risk, so whats the hurry?
I feel that many supporting this are only looking at it from the testosterone viewpoint.
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I'd sign a petition to stop retained getting blue lights or signs! What about the cost, training implications etc. Like nearlythere said, the thought of 20 maniacs driving to the same place at the same time, trying to beat each other is a very scary thought.
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We have had this discussion before check out http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=1480
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Only our friends in the retained service can answer this question. Is it a big issue? In my brigade the Area Command team tend to be informed of occurrences when an appliance failed to mobilise within 5 mins. I don`t see may of these. Is it that much different elsewhere?
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Whilst I don't deny you do get some retained personnel rushing to the station most that Ive worked with stick to the speed limit dont honk their horns or flash their lights
Why do they need a sign then other than to signify to others "Hey, look at me. I'm a firefighter dashing to the station. Don't I look great?"
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Nearlythere,
I don't know if its intended or not, but i am getting the feeling that you are not too keen on the RDS.
For the record, we are not maniacs nor are we posers who want people to know who we are and what we are doing. Like yourself ( i am assuming you are wholetime), we are firefighters responding to an emergency call. When i do this my first thought isn't:
'Jeez, look at me! aren't i a hero!'
My thought is to get to the station safely and form part of the crew that will be responding to the incident, whether it be a persons reported fire, or a bin alight.
For the record, i am against some form of light or siren for RDS personnel. Basically because i can imagine there are some people who will abuse it.
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No. I have the greatest of respect for many of my Rtd colleagues, including you, as I do for many of my WT colleagues. However, there are many who I do not. Thats life.
Certainly your thought is to get to the station safety and the best way to do this is to drive normally. No need for horns and lights then.
Yes, there are some people who will abuse it, without doubt.
I still can't get the the maniacal posing driver, not you of course, out of my mind though.
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Whilst I don't deny you do get some retained personnel rushing to the station most that Ive worked with stick to the speed limit dont honk their horns or flash their lights
Why do they need a sign then other than to signify to others "Hey, look at me. I'm a firefighter dashing to the station. Don't I look great?"
Yes well there are whole time as well as retained that like to pose suggest you read the original thread above for sensible discussion
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Yep. Read the original thread.
Most people seem to agree with me. Bad idea.
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This debate has been around the houses before and parallels a similar petition to Government from ambulance service first responders* to have green lights** to make progress to incidents.
Governments view is 'never'. Ministers have stated they don't want a saturation of blue light or green light users as this will diminish their effectiveness even more than it has already been by modern traffic conditions and drivers. In fact they are legislating to tighten up their use with mandatory minimum training standards on the way (too many blue light crashes & deaths already), thus making it very unlikely a brigade could afford to meet the burden of the impending requirements, & the retained may struggle to find the time to do the courses.
Car stickers and window panels are widely used, but with a few exceptions you won't see blues & twos spreading through RDS & CFR
* volunteers from local communities working for the ambulance service to respond to life threatening emergencies in their local area with oxygen, defibrillators, etc
** green lights are currently restricted to use only by registered medical doctors, and they afford no exemptions - no speeding, going through red lights, etc
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The crusty dinosaurs, like me, who had to do the stautory promotion exams will be aware that the vehicle construction and use (Lighting) regulations specifically prohibit the red lights being fitted to the front of a vehicle and white lights being fitted to the rear. This means another law will need to be ammended.
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Heres a better idea. Have all the personel on the station with the machines, then they can turn out in under a minute, and save all this rushing about.
It might even provide a better service to the public. ;)
Imagine that? See i'm not just a pretty face, full of good ideas. Does anyone think the Government would see it in the same light?
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Only problem with that is that the government couldn't afford all those Snooker Tables that would be required! :rolleyes:
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Nor all the comfy chairs that you're not allowed to sleep in
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This is unlikely to happen when most fire authorities have have within their IRMPs the aim of "reducing the number of blue light journeys". If they are trying to cut the number of journeys that appliances have to make under "blues and twos" they are not going to start sending 20 members of a RDS unit out under them.
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if the government could afford the comfy chairs & snooker tables you could go W/T ,job done !!!! p.s no axe to grind here im W/T & RDS in my village, two RDS lads just got W/T posts but have left RDS due to having to re locate ,so we are short again!!!
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As part of a busy Retained station, and seeing how some of my colleagues drive, I say NO NO NO NO NO NO!
We once turned out to an AFA, only to be passed by the station in the patch next to us on the way into our area, to extricate one of our probies, who had managed to flip his Modeo 3 times and being brought to a halt by a rather old tree that was a favourite of local old people. Doing no more than 30. Apparently.
I run to work. Real man *poses*. I don't half get some funny looks when I leave my shopping trolley in the middle of Morrisons and run at full pelt out the door.
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All part the fun though innit? The bit I especially enjoy is knowing everyone is looking at the wife wondering what the hell she's just said to me to make me run like that!!
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The worst bit is the new alerters we have been given. Especially 2 in the morning. It's loud. DSX loud. It wakes my neighbours up.
When you consider my next door neighbour used to be retained too... he's half way out the door before he realises its not his job anymore.
I suppose you could give retained guys (and gals!) blue lights or whatever, but they would have to receive blue light training, and no brigade is going to stretch to that.
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i had to make a special alarm to wake me up when my alerter goes off - I managed to sleep through the alerter once - theyre very quiet - perghaps I should swap mine with yours toby14483
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No chance. I slept through my old one. Not a pleasent experience when it gets to the morning and the sub is ringing....
Back on topic, You can get car window stickers and bumper stickers that say "Firefighter on Call" on then. Money goes to the Ben Fund when you buy them I think.
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Window stickers just like the one I saw displayed in the window of the 4X4 parked opposite me on the campsite I stayed at this year.
It looked lovely and was complimented by a nice red/white striped bumber just like a pump ...... and a similar coloured body too ...... I could even tell who the proud owner was as he was wearing what looked like most of his uniform too ......
I have to say that if I saw a car approaching me with such a sticker I would immediately get out the way ...... Yeah, Right.
Personally I don't agree with them. I spent 8 years as a retained firefighter and managed just fine responding without a sticker or blue light. Just because you are on call, it doesn't mean you are exempt from the law and can force your way through traffic at goodness knows what speed.
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No, you may not be bopthered, but in local communities where many people do know the retained firefighters, some people might give a little bit of way. Sometimes you can wait literally minutes for an opening in a junction. Especially rush hour. Every little helps. All it takes is one nice fellow to let you out, and you are there. Or can be at least.
Anyway, I don't have a driving licence, but I know how annoying it is to wait 11 minutes for your LF or 4th man to turn up so you can ride for 30 seconds to an AFA over the road...
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Window stickers just like the one I saw displayed in the window of the 4X4 parked opposite me on the campsite I stayed at this year.
It looked lovely and was complimented by a nice red/white striped bumber just like a pump ...... and a similar coloured body too ...... I could even tell who the proud owner was as he was wearing what looked like most of his uniform too ......
I have to say that if I saw a car approaching me with such a sticker I would immediately get out the way ...... Yeah, Right.
Personally I don't agree with them. I spent 8 years as a retained firefighter and managed just fine responding without a sticker or blue light. Just because you are on call, it doesn't mean you are exempt from the law and can force your way through traffic at goodness knows what speed.
It's been explained time and time again in this thread that we dont want any exemptions from traffic law or to break the law or to pose.
But as toby points out some turn out areas get very busy and getting to station in time can be problematic.
Alot of people have said " if the firefighters can no longer reach station in time they shouldnt do the job anymore" thats easier said than done due to geographic demographic financial and recruitment issues associated with getting someone to take their place.
Yes there are posers in all walks of life especially the fire service.
Yes we all know theyre pratts and some just want the pose value associated with blue flashy lights or daft large stickers saying " Hey look at me Im a fire man arent I brilliant"
But we dont want extra privalledges or blue flashy lights
We dont want big signs
We want constructive discussion on this issue on how to combat the problem of things like increased traffic on the roads slowing down our response.
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Window stickers just like the one I saw displayed in the window of the 4X4 parked opposite me on the campsite I stayed at this year.
It looked lovely and was complimented by a nice red/white striped bumber just like a pump ...... and a similar coloured body too ...... I could even tell who the proud owner was as he was wearing what looked like most of his uniform too ......
I have to say that if I saw a car approaching me with such a sticker I would immediately get out the way ...... Yeah, Right.
Personally I don't agree with them. I spent 8 years as a retained firefighter and managed just fine responding without a sticker or blue light. Just because you are on call, it doesn't mean you are exempt from the law and can force your way through traffic at goodness knows what speed.
It's been explained time and time again in this thread that we dont want any exemptions from traffic law or to break the law or to pose.
But as toby points out some turn out areas get very busy and getting to station in time can be problematic.
Alot of people have said " if the firefighters can no longer reach station in time they shouldnt do the job anymore" thats easier said than done due to geographic demographic financial and recruitment issues associated with getting someone to take their place.
Yes there are posers in all walks of life especially the fire service.
Yes we all know theyre pratts and some just want the pose value associated with blue flashy lights or daft large stickers saying " Hey look at me Im a fire man arent I brilliant"
But we dont want extra privalledges or blue flashy lights
We dont want big signs
We want constructive discussion on this issue on how to combat the problem of things like increased traffic on the roads slowing down our response.
This should really be a consideration under IRMP. If a Retd station is usually late in turning out due to traffic problems encountered by responding personnel then the Board must look at day or variable manning and not blues and twos for private cars.
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Quite agree. Good idea.
But why do we keep mentioning blues and twos?
I never have advocated that ret'd cars should have flashy lights or sirens Ive gone out of my way to say specifically and categorically blues are a no no.
Anyway back to the sisue in hand what will the IRMP come up with?
The brigades concerned wont be able to relocate stations due to financial reasons. Close them down then? what is the answer?
Thats what im driving at Im not sure what the IRMP would establish other than to say "yes we have a problem"
Did I mention I DO NOT Advocate the use of FLASH LIGHTS of ANY COLOUR for retained personnel nor any audible devices either lol.
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Quite agree. Good idea.
But why do we keep mentioning blues and twos?
I never have advocated that ret'd cars should have flashy lights or sirens Ive gone out of my way to say specifically and categorically blues are a no no.
Anyway back to the sisue in hand what will the IRMP come up with?
The brigades concerned wont be able to relocate stations due to financial reasons. Close them down then? what is the answer?
Thats what im driving at Im not sure what the IRMP would establish other than to say "yes we have a problem"
Did I mention I DO NOT Advocate the use of FLASH LIGHTS of ANY COLOUR for retained personnel nor any audible devices either lol.
Many would like blues and twos MR but you seem a sensible sort. Signs may be of some assistance but a few courteous drivers would not be an IRMP factor.
The purpose of the IRMP is to consider all the relevant factors to deliver an effective F&R Service. If a station has difficulty meeting its attendance times due to heavy traffic, albeit only at certain times of the day, then that is a relevant factor.
A fire engine can deal with heavy traffic much better than a private car.
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I think we keep mentioning blues and twos because thats what started this thread.
As far as the IRMP goes then the first thing it will come up with is yes there is a problem, then exactly what the problem is, when it occurs etc. Once the problem has been established then possible solutions can be explored. it does not immediately mean closing stations or moving stations.
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Hi Mike
You are totally right
Im just wondering what those solutions might be. Sorry I know that is a daft question, but Im trying to do a little research to pass onto my Watch Commander.
Anyone got any suggestions with say a station not meeting turn out times due to traffic.
(No problem with fire engine getting through once turning out - more issue of responders in private cars getting to the station)
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The first stage is to ask what is the problem from the Authority's point of view. Questions that need to be answered are the old how, why, what, where and when.
How does this affect the response time for the brigade? Can they still get an appliance to an incident in an acceptable time?
Why does it affect the response time? Wider issue here if they can't get an appliance to an incident in a reasonable time what happens if the station is committed to another job?
Where? Which stations are affected by this and how does this affect the brigade?
When? Is it just specific times ie "rush hour" or is it generally during the working day?
Once you have found out what the problem is from an overall view, then look for solution. For instance if it is a real problem at specific times then maybe move a wholetime appliance to a standby location so that the area has adequate cover over the relevant time.
Remember you may look at the problem from the point of view of your station, however the decisions will be made from the point of view of the whole brigade.
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That fair comment Mike
Agree with you about viewpoint of Brigade and not just the station.
Problem generally only during rush hour and weekends.
Watch Commander is jitery that station might close!.
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But why do we keep mentioning blues and twos?
I think there is a clue in the title of the thread!!
Anyway, back to the discussion .....
I agree with Mike's points. Just because the private car drivers can't get to the station in time, it doesn't mean it will close. (Although some Authorities do use it and IRMP as a catalyst to do so)
IRMP is about identifying risk ion the Authority area and ensuring that there are adequate resources in the right locations to deal with an incident at those risks.
There are other means available .... mobilising wholetime appliances for example, providing cover at certain times etc etc.
Has no-one considered that when the station first opened the volume of traffic was no where near what it was today? Yours is not the only station to be experiencing the same difficulties.
Employers attitudes have changed too. They can't afford to have half the workforce disappear when an alerter goes off, they have profit to think about! Also companies have moved out of small towns to industrial estates further afield.
There are so many other factors that contribute and yet some of the most fundamental ones have been missed.
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OK The problem is during the rush hour and at weekends. Have a look at your calls and find out what percentage happen during these periods. This will give you a good idea of the problem.
Yes your watch commander may have the jitters about the future of the station however again the problem may not only be the callouts, what is the state of the building for instance? I remember one station that was closed mainly because it was built as an AFS fire station and to bring it up to date needed a full rebuild.
About the only thing you can do is improve yourselves. Make sure you know everything you need to know,keep the kit in top condition, make sure everyone knows the drills and they are good at them and morale is high and enthusiastic. It is easier to close a inefficient station where the crews seem to treat it as a social club rather than a real job. I once had to suggest that one retained station where I attended their drill night should be taken off the run as their drill was so bad they were more of a danger on the fire ground than a help.
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But why do we keep mentioning blues and twos?
I think there is a clue in the title of the thread!!
Anyway, back to the discussion .....
I agree with Mike's points. Just because the private car drivers can't get to the station in time, it doesn't mean it will close. (Although some Authorities do use it and IRMP as a catalyst to do so)
IRMP is about identifying risk ion the Authority area and ensuring that there are adequate resources in the right locations to deal with an incident at those risks.
There are other means available .... mobilising wholetime appliances for example, providing cover at certain times etc etc.
Has no-one considered that when the station first opened the volume of traffic was no where near what it was today? Yours is not the only station to be experiencing the same difficulties.
Employers attitudes have changed too. They can't afford to have half the workforce disappear when an alerter goes off, they have profit to think about! Also companies have moved out of small towns to industrial estates further afield.
There are so many other factors that contribute and yet some of the most fundamental ones have been missed.
Lights and signs was the name of the thread.
The points you raised are correct and I don't argue with any of them.
And Im not saying our station is the only one with this problem.
The station first opened in the 1940's since then the town has grown, I doubt todays traffic volumes would have been considered then.
Not enough money in the pot to relocate / rebuild it somewhere more suitable.
They won't post wholetime appliance to tthe area because frankly theyre pretty much at full stretch themselves.
What other fundamentals have we not talked about?
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I think they've all been covered at some point!!
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By far the best way to keep a station open is to have the local population -taxpayers- on side.
I know of a station... a very small community was due to close and the local population got wind of it. As the old station was knocked down they went mental, raised some of the funds themselves, and paid for the station to be rebuilt as a "Community Fire Station" where lots of community events take place.
So now, this sub 50 shout a year station, cannot be closed. No matter how much the big-wigs want it to be. Which they do.
May not be the exact story, but it's how it was told to me.
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Most new stations are designated "Community Fire and Rescue Stations" and provide a facility such as a room which is available to local community groups for meetings etc.
It makes use of a public building and breaks down barriers as ost people have never been in a fire station before.
It's a good way of ensuring it gets used and stays open.
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So let me get this right....the local fire authority close a retained station and then fundraisers within the community stump up the funds to re-open it....are we falling into a trap here of the local authorities discharging their responsibility of providing fire cover, whilst still raking in the Fire Protection element of the council tax.....what next, close the schools and rely on local mums and dads to educate the village kids......its just a thought!!!!
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No they're already doing that with schools, closing down the local school and bussing the pupils miles to a mega school. I'm waiting to be told I have to wheel my wheely bin full of rubbish and load it into the bin lorry ( I hope I'm joking)
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Mike
Dont forget to pay the driver before you tip that bin in the truck. Some areas are already on a trial scheme to put bar codes on bins and scan them for additional land fill tax charges to be levied.
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Kurnal, sorry mate I have to raise you on that one. Near us they are trying a scheme where they take a sample of bins away to see what people are chucking. Just waiting for the new uniforms for our bin callectors balck uniforms with jack boots.
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By far the best way to keep a station open is to have the local population -taxpayers- on side.
I know of a station... a very small community was due to close and the local population got wind of it. As the old station was knocked down they went mental, raised some of the funds themselves, and paid for the station to be rebuilt as a "Community Fire Station" where lots of community events take place.
So now, this sub 50 shout a year station, cannot be closed. No matter how much the big-wigs want it to be. Which they do.
May not be the exact story, but it's how it was told to me.
I can find no evidence of this and find that your last line is the most telling? By the way if a local community wanted their own 'Community Fire Station' and were able to raise the £250k+, that it would cost to build, then let them. As to providing an appliance and employing staff to keep it on the run, well now who says that has to be done by the FRA? So maybe the station, as a building, could not be closed, but it would just be a large community multi-use building with a very big garage - unless the FRA wanted to use it.
PS just as well that local community, if they aren't an apocrophyl myth, were so on the ball and keen to maintain an FRS presence. If it were my local station I wouldn't be waiting until they had knocked it down to act, after all it takes over a year to get a decent commercial building up from scratch, planning permission and fundraising not included, so they had no station for a long, long time................ Never mind as the whole story is so full of holes it is following the Titanic.
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i think its just an ego boost really isnt it ?
in the village i live in, you know there is a turnout, its like a racetrack, speed limits are ignored, headlights on fullbeam and horns beeped, and members of the public mouthed foul language at for holding them up....
i think this is a sickening display, even more so our local counceller has gotten involved through villagers complaints, but as usual nothing will be done, until one of them hits a car or member of the public and it makes the news!!!
i myself have been about 6 inches from knocked off of my bike by a retained firefighter responding to a shout....
and when i went to the station to complain, they said basically, they are above the law and do as they please, the exact words were "if it was your house on fire with your family in it, you would want us to get there as soon as possible"
i think that is totally sickening !!!
what do you all think?
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i think its just an ego boost really isnt it ?
in the village i live in, you know there is a turnout, its like a racetrack, speed limits are ignored, headlights on fullbeam and horns beeped, and members of the public mouthed foul language at for holding them up....
i think this is a sickening display, even more so our local counceller has gotten involved through villagers complaints, but as usual nothing will be done, until one of them hits a car or member of the public and it makes the news!!!
i myself have been about 6 inches from knocked off of my bike by a retained firefighter responding to a shout....
and when i went to the station to complain, they said basically, they are above the law and do as they please, the exact words were "if it was your house on fire with your family in it, you would want us to get there as soon as possible"
i think that is totally sickening !!!
what do you all think?
You should have reported the matter to the police.
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Exactly what nearlythere says, report it to the police and/or send a complaint to your county fire service HQ. Any firefigher breaking the law, especially speed limits to get on that appliance is doing so for their own benefit and not thinking about the public.
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agree with nearlythere not a good idea, i done 15 years in the retained, on a busy 2 pump station,but still say NO, there were enough accidents without blue lights,dont vote for this please
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HEP
Done over five years and live 300 yards from station, and nearly been run over by redmist drivers whilst running down top of stn. I know of one time someone got a lift with another lad 85-90 through a 40 during the day. Happens all the time i suspect across our little island. Dont know what the answer is tho.
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Theres lots of answers- its a matter of analysis as to why its happening, taking steps to reduce that percieved need to rush, education of the crews as to the risks and the possible consequences- legal, financial, moral for themselves and for the service.
In my experience its something you have do do well and repeat every couple of years. Its usually down to either enthusiastic youngsters keen to ride the pump or too much competition for places. For the latter a roster system can help.
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This is the link to the response to the petition .
http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page14177.asp
With regards to your last post Kurnal about a roster system the station i work on has had a roster in place for over 40 years which has always worked well, so well in fact the the brigade has taken it on board and have introduced it across all retained stations along with removing the paid per turn out and replaced with a salary which is better for all concerned.
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The Government's response is no surprise to me, indeed the very same arguments that I have given in response to this thread and others of a similar vein, here and in the other fire service forum. Perhaps the proponents of this ridiculous idea can now begin to listen to reason?
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I work full-time in airport fire services but in my spare time I am and have been retained for 12 years, so I feel I can comment from an informed perspective.
I know that as the town where I serve as retained, everything is growing and developing and with it the roads, the amount of traffic on them and traffic infrastructure such as roundabouts, new routes and traffic lights. All of this has resulted in a slower response time without a doubt.
Do I agree with amending this by permitting myself and my collagues to behave like the Dukes of Hazard, absolutely not.
The implications are frightening and I have worked with a number of retained over the years and a fair percentage drive recklessly already (without visual/audible aids) and are even worse when they get behind the wheel of an appliance. The amount of near misses, agitated drivers and poor image in the public caused by racing attitudes I couldn't list there's been so many. How we've got so far without a major incident is pure luck, regardless to say a few wing mirrors and other minor clouts have been reported. The worse thing is that many of these have been executed on route to regular AFA's and other non-life critical incidents.
The only reasonable argument I can support is response times to RTC's and persons reported fires, but even there I would suggest finding another way of managing response times other than jazzing up retained cars with lights and horns.
However the brigade are guilty of promoting some of it because as the town has changed the brigade hasn't and periodically we get negative feedback from Ops Support regarding booking out and in attendance times.
In my opinion there is no excuse for rushing heavy trucks around busy streets at the limits of both it and the drivers ability, never mind personal vehicles.
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Been retained 11 years and dont think its a good idea, dont think your car insurer would either.
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A suggestion for those Stations that are having a problem with speeding members? Do as we did, invite a friendly local copper around to explain just how wrong these people are, that they have no 'special rights'. And have him/her put them on notice that they WILL be booked when caught. It hasn't made all of our people wake up, but hopefully the newer/younger ones have. It helped that the local copper we invited also happens to be a volunteer firie - he knows all about it from both sides of the fence.
I have a lot of traffic at certain times of the day, no chance at all of getting to the shed quickly. So I just get there when I can - missed the first truck? Too bad. A pity of it all is that some of our longer serving members are amongst the worst. They should have learned by now how to control the adrenalin rush...
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Being a Retained firefighter i know the importance of getting to the station quickly, but safely. I'll admit, on occasion i may push it slighty when traffic is heavy but i've still not managed to control the adrenaline lol. But i do think allowing Retained guys and gals to have 'blues and twos' would be very dodgey. I know i'd abuse it if given the chance and reckon most of the guys i know from my station and other stations near by would certainly abuse it. Although, some of the guys at our station have amber lights on the cars/vans due to their other jobs and when responding to the station put these on,simply as a way of letting people know their there. I personally have an amber dash light and have a FIRE sign on both visors, this seems to do the trick and since our town is fairly close knit, most people know that i am in a rush, and for a good reason too. But i was shocked to realise that certain RNLI or Coastguard crews are permitted to use 'blues and twos' on their personal vehicles?? Surely you cant distinguish between the two, both ultimately safe life. Fair enough this is not an everyday occurance but both dont know this until they get to the station.
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A strange quirk of law, due to a mistake (I assume) int he drafting of the Road Safety Act, which came into force last April, is that RNLI and Coastguard, along with Airport Fire Services, Mountain Rescue and more, have no legal exemptions at all. Only Police, Ambulance and Fire and Rescue Authorities may leaglly use blues and twos.
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A strange quirk of law, due to a mistake (I assume) int he drafting of the Road Safety Act, which came into force last April, is that RNLI and Coastguard, along with Airport Fire Services, Mountain Rescue and more, have no legal exemptions at all. Only Police, Ambulance and Fire and Rescue Authorities may leaglly use blues and twos.
I know, and its causing us no end of hassle!
Moral dilemma, do you drive under blues to an incident where they may be a life risk but know that you have no exemption whatsoever and know that the police can rightfully pull you over and report you (unlikely i know, but it puts it in perspective).
Or protect yourself by sticking to the RSA and live with outcome when you arrive??
To be honest, i don't even know if it was a mistake. It appears we didn't even cross their minds in the first place!
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The Road Safety Act only removed the right for the speed exemption from non Local Authority Fire Services, etc. It did not affect the existing legislation for other exemptions such as red lights becoming stop & give way signs, ignoring keep left bollards, etc.
And although Police, Ambulance & LA Fire Authorities still retain the speed exemption they are now compelled to provide drivers with specialist training (the minimum acceptable standard still awaiting clarification in a subordinate Order to be issued by the Secretary of State) in high speed driving in order to do so - before this no training was required (although most organisations did).
So already disjointed legislation becomes more so (as a result of a knee jerk quick fix due to press about several high speed police crashes over recent years).We now have:
- One set of rules and definitions for who can have a siren
- Another set of rules and different definitions for who can have blue lights
- A set of rules and yet again different definitions for who can excercise certain exemptions such as red lights, keep left signs etc
- And another new set of rules with- you guessed - different definitions regarding exemptions of speed limits
No wonder there are so many arguements!
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Yikes! This hoary old chestnut keeps popping back up to the top of the list every so often. I thought we'd put this one to bed long ago.
I'd just written loads but then I realised it was just reiterating what has already been said over the previous 4 pages so I won't bother you with it.
I am firmly of the opinion that it should not happen, lights and sirens that is. I also firmly believe that the brigades have a duty to review their IRMP and increase the manning where such stations are having difficulties in getting a crew let alone meeting turn-out times, supplementing the RDS with WTS. It's what Joe Public pays for and is entitled to receive.
Yes, it will cost money, but doesn't everything?
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If my opinions offend, you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a hoot!
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EXACTLY, Pugh
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The Road Safety Act only removed the right for the speed exemption from non Local Authority Fire Services, etc. It did not affect the existing legislation for other exemptions such as red lights becoming stop & give way signs, ignoring keep left bollards, etc.
And although Police, Ambulance & LA Fire Authorities still retain the speed exemption they are now compelled to provide drivers with specialist training (the minimum acceptable standard still awaiting clarification in a subordinate Order to be issued by the Secretary of State) in high speed driving in order to do so - before this no training was required (although most organisations did).
So already disjointed legislation becomes more so (as a result of a knee jerk quick fix due to press about several high speed police crashes over recent years).We now have:
- One set of rules and definitions for who can have a siren
- Another set of rules and different definitions for who can have blue lights
- A set of rules and yet again different definitions for who can excercise certain exemptions such as red lights, keep left signs etc
- And another new set of rules with- you guessed - different definitions regarding exemptions of speed limits
No wonder there are so many arguements!
I believe that the legislation also allowed that the engine of a fire appliance could be left running without anyone having to be in the driving seat, or words to that effect. This is to allow for pumping purposes.
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I seem to remember the exemptions for FRS drivers were as follows:
Exceed the road speed limit only where safe to do so without causing a hazard
Treat a red traffic light as a give-way junction
Negotiate one way streets in contraflow to the designated route
Sound sirens and horns between the hours of 2300 & 0700
Sound sirens & horns when stationary
Park on common ground
Leave the vehicle unattended with the engine running; (referred to by Yesterday)
There may be more but I'm running out of available memory space on my cranium hard drive, however, I do recall that even following the guidelines, (and thats all they were), of the first 3 above, if any driver of an appliance, (irrespective of urgency or advice from his OIC), who causes an accident is still subject to prosecution
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If I remember correctly it was not necessary to cause an accident, any driver involved in an accident under those conditions could be done for 'driving with undue care and attention' for a starter.
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Having been in the unfortunate position of being involved in an RTC while proceeding to an incident, the subsequent investigation apportioned no blame to either party, based on the evidence of witnesses at the scene.
However, some months later, I was interviewd under caution and reported for the offence of driving without due care and consideration to other road users. Not a nice experience.
Other exemptions include being able to reverse and drive on the hard shoulder of a motorway (for the purposes of dealing with an emergency)
Competely agree with Pugh's post ..... spot on and well stated!
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right i have bought a sign for my visor which says fire i use it to stop people to block me in and is very visable to the car in front but its not enough to tell them your on a call ie. i was thinking headlight flashers next
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I would strongly advise you NOT to fit flashy headlights.
Not only will the local bobbies be unimpressed but you'll probably find colleagues, mates and members of the public alike will think you are pratt.
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Plus if it was not authorised by the FRS they may well drop you like a hot brick!
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I would strongly advise you NOT to fit flashy headlights.
Not only will the local bobbies be unimpressed but you'll probably find colleagues, mates and members of the public alike will think you are pratt.
I'd agree with that!! Your car is not an authorised vehicle and you could be prosecuted as such.
I'm not even sure I agree with the sign ...... or painting your vehicle to look like a fire service van with striped bumpers etc as I saw on holiday in Cornwall last year .....
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The whole idea of retained firefighters usings lights and signs is ridiculous.
I was almost home from work a few nights ago on a country lane, when a male in a black car came up behind me at a crossroad, sounding his horn, flashing his head lights and waving a red FIRE sign in his hand. As soon as i noticed this, he had already overtaken me, shot straight across the junction and swerved narrowly missing the car on the other side. He then proceeded to drive through a 30mph village at about 45mph.
One of the stipulations for retained firefighters is that when on call, they are within a certain distance of the fire station. This is to enable them to get to the station within a required time so they can respond.
All this talk of signs and flashing lights, breaking the road traffic act etc makes me wonder whether some firefighters are more concerned with getting a bit of extra money in their pocket for arriving quickly and getting on the pump rather than making it to the station safely so they can help those who need it.
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The whole idea of retained firefighters usings lights and signs is ridiculous.
Totally agree lights are a no no
Signs? well... hmmm slightly disagree.... I have a sign on my dashboard that ask people not to block me in - we all were having problem with our cars being obstructed on our driveways because the village has little parking and is a tourist attraction so gets packed.
In my opinion a sign like that is not a tool for posing with or to allow me to break all traffic laws, but just to politely ask people not to block me in.
The sign has elliviated the problem.
But to make you car look like a fire service vehicle is very sad indeed.
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Signs? well... hmmm slightly disagree.... I have a sign on my dashboard that ask people not to block me in - we all were having problem with our cars being obstructed on our driveways because the village has little parking and is a tourist attraction so gets packed.
In my opinion a sign like that is not a tool for posing with or to allow me to break all traffic laws, but just to politely ask people not to block me in.
The sign has elliviated the problem.
I agree in certain situations a sign when parked may be useful.
The people who wave them about, tailgating other drivers and flashing head lights to try and pass people, in my eyes is just another form of road rage, even if they think its justified.
But to make you car look like a fire service vehicle is very sad indeed.
Completely agree!
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The people who wave them about, tailgating other drivers and flashing head lights to try and pass people, in my eyes is just another form of road rage, even if they think its justified.
Indeed, and infact that may even be illegal let alone stupid, and once again a bit sad
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These people need to get out more. Making their cars look like fire engines etc. Sad
I disagree with signs (except in the situation midland mentioned). Especially people who utilise their sign to justify parking illegally, hazards flashing on double yellows so they can nip to the shops etc.
If your on call, fine, don't abuse it to be able to park like a moron. It just winds everybody up. If I get an unmarked civilian veihcle with a fire sign and flashing headlights in my rear mirror with flashing headlights I will certainly not pull over or get out of the way. I may even deliberately cause an obstruction....
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I don't mind people with signs on their windscreen or bumper saying 'firefighter on call' or whetevr. It gives some people a nudge to be a bit more courtous.
As a rule a retained firefighter should not have to break any traffic laws to get to the station within plenty of time. If they do, then they perhaps should not be a retained firefighter at that station. I know one or two people that have been simply told to "move house or you are out".
Although I may be being a little harsh as I do not drive and run to the station for all my calls. I still beat the guy who lives next door to me and drives... huzzah for footpaths.
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I agree with firebird, this would be a bad idea. My girlfriend is retained and im sure she thinks she is invincible in her car when responding to her bleeper, she is far from it. The implications of this could be terrible.
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The implications are terrible. In a brigade I was serving in a retained Sub O put crashed his car, broke his back and put himself into a wheelchair for the rest of his life responding to a call. It ain't worth it!
Think of it logically not only was the retained crew short, but the brigade had to mobilise extra resources to deal with the RTA.
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If I get an unmarked civilian veihcle with a fire sign and flashing headlights in my rear mirror with flashing headlights I will certainly not pull over or get out of the way. I may even deliberately cause an obstruction....
it could be an FDS officer though that you are holding up though,as unmarked civi cars like this are used in some counties.
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Excuse my ignorance but why are FDS officers any different to retained firefighters when travelling? If unmarked civi cars are used then they should obey the rules of the road like every other road user.
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If I get an unmarked civilian veihcle with a fire sign and flashing headlights in my rear mirror with flashing headlights I will certainly not pull over or get out of the way. I may even deliberately cause an obstruction....
it could be an FDS officer though that you are holding up though,as unmarked civi cars like this are used in some counties.
Flexi Duty Officers normally have removeable or disguised blue lights fitted to their vehicles and have received appropriate advanced driver training.
If they are entitled to use them, and appropriately trained thats fine, if they dont have blue lights fitted then they must obey normal traffic regulations.
In my county FD Officers are being asked not to respond on blues and twos except in circumstances where it is essential that a senior officer is needed to take control of an incident quickly (ie where a crew commander is OIC)
For all other incidents where a senior officer is required but not immediately a secondary response is used. It was also decided that flexi duty acting as Monitoring officers have no need to respond on blues and twos unless at a very large incident and things like decontamination procedures are to be audited.
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If I get an unmarked civilian veihcle with a fire sign and flashing headlights in my rear mirror with flashing headlights I will certainly not pull over or get out of the way. I may even deliberately cause an obstruction....
it could be an FDS officer though that you are holding up though,as unmarked civi cars like this are used in some counties.
Flexi Duty Officers normally have removeable or disguised blue lights fitted to their vehicles and have received appropriate advanced driver training.
If they are entitled to use them, and appropriately trained thats fine, if they dont have blue lights fitted then they must obey normal traffic regulations.
In my county FD Officers are being asked not to respond on blues and twos except in circumstances where it is essential that a senior officer is needed to take control of an incident quickly (ie where a crew commander is OIC)
For all other incidents where a senior officer is required but not immediately a secondary response is used. It was also decided that flexi duty acting as Monitoring officers have no need to respond on blues and twos unless at a very large incident and things like decontamination procedures are to be audited.
There are a number of protocols where it is not a 'blue light run' i.e. classed as 'non emergency calls'.No doubt these vary from brigade to brigade.
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Indeed my point being however that you will never be holding up an FDS officer because if an FDS officer needs to get through he or she should have blue lights if not then thats tough luck.
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Indeed my point being however that you will never be holding up an FDS officer because if an FDS officer needs to get through he or she should have blue lights if not then thats tough luck.
but possibly not if you are behind 'Big T'!
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If I get an unmarked civilian veihcle with a fire sign and flashing headlights in my rear mirror with flashing headlights I will certainly not pull over or get out of the way. I may even deliberately cause an obstruction....
it could be an FDS officer though that you are holding up though,as unmarked civi cars like this are used in some counties.
Of course if it is an RDS officer and they are on blues, this would be an offence under section 1 of the emergency workers obstruction act 2006.
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Of course if it is an RDS officer and they are on blues, this would be an offence under section 1 of the emergency workers obstruction act 2006.
Yes that would be an offence.
I think Big T was refering to people waving signs, flashing their headlights etc though rather than someone actually having blue lights fitted to their car.
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Still dont obsturct, calmly pull over, take the registration number and report them to the police. Also put a complaint into the brigade concerned.
Most would take this complaint very seriously.
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All of them would FSO. It's bringing the brigade into disrepute and they don't look kindly on that at all.
I'd hope if any retained firefighter was that desperate to get into the station, it would be because they are the only driver or something of a similar nature, not just wanting to get to the station before others to get a turnout and a few extra pennies. Still doesn't excuse it though. I've seen some shocking driving to get to retained stations in my ( fairly short) time. I just hope when I decide to drive, I wont turn into one of the divs.
Let them pass, and put in a complaint, would be my best answer too.
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I think the big issue with some (not all i'm sure) retained fire fighters is that they think they are responding to a call when their bleeper goes, in my eyes, they are going to work. They only begin responding when they have enough bums on seats in the vehicle.
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I have seen some shocking driving including jumping red lights.
Even in the middle of the night I do not see this as acceptable. I understand that some retained FFs are very keen to get to station to get the lorry out quicker, but the fact is they are creating unacceptable risks for themselves and people around them.
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I have seen some shocking driving including jumping red lights.
Even in the middle of the night I do not see this as acceptable. I understand that some retained FFs are very keen to get to station to get the lorry out quicker, but the fact is they are creating unacceptable risks for themselves and people around them.
Quite!
That is wholly unacceptable and the firefighters should be reported / disciplined.
Arent we all here to try and prevent accidents rather than start them?
Out of intrest FSO - how did you know they were firefighters? did they have signs on the car? (not a phlippant question I promise, just wondered)
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I have seen some shocking driving including jumping red lights.
Even in the middle of the night I do not see this as acceptable. I understand that some retained FFs are very keen to get to station to get the lorry out quicker, but the fact is they are creating unacceptable risks for themselves and people around them.
Quite!
That is wholly unacceptable and the firefighters should be reported / disciplined.
Arent we all here to try and prevent accidents rather than start them?
Out of intrest FSO - how did you know they were firefighters? did they have signs on the car? (not a phlippant question I promise, just wondered)
I park my wireless car at my local station as parking is limited at my house.
I have voiced my concerns, but is the job for the appropriate manager now. I dont like stepping on toes. ;-)
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what is a wireless car?
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A brigade car. The name still exists from when appliances did not carry radios and officers cars did.
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Maybe its a question of recruiting the wrong personnel?? If they live within the correct catctment area then there should not be a need? Espcially as more and more services head towards salary schemes?
This has had a positive affect at our station as when the retained alerters activate they know they are guarenteed to ride? thus we dont have 10 personnal racing in for 6 seets to get the bit T!
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The above represents my personal opinions only.
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This has had a positive affect at our station as when the retained alerters activate they know they are guarenteed to ride? thus we dont have 10 personnal racing in for 6 seets to get the bit T!
Maybe, maybe not. We have three trucks to roll to our own jobs, and still have people who live close racing to the shed for the first truck (self not included). And we don't get any money at all. It's a mentality thing, with the adrenaline, and some of ours would swear that they don't speed!
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I am at a day crewed station where after 6pm we go home and respond on alerters in effect becoming retained duty personel.
As we have to live in a designated "turn-out" area (within a mile or 3 mins of the station) when the bells go down for a 2 pump shout (1 w/t 1 ret) you have possibly up to 14 people driving in to the station from all areas of the town to the station.
It would be absolute bedlam if we all had lights and bells wailing and these motors coming from 3 possible directions.
So the wholetime and retained (if this was ever to pass!!) would have the use of these bells and lights and the thought that the risk for abuse of these facilities when not on a call is too high to consider.
If you can't make the turn out time of 5 minutes then reflect this in your reports but these cases are very rare and do not warrant the above.
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cost and chaos-reasons why it won't happen.800+ RDS in my brigade-cost of lightsetc,initial&refresher training.As mentioned 10+ people descending on a station from different directions-would look like 'whacky races'.In these days of trying to reduce risk of accidents,can't see many brigades ever buying into it.
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The problem here as I see it is an educational one. When a retained firefighter commences employment with the fire service, it is made clear that to be employed as a retained firefighter, they must live within the appropriate area in order to attend incidents within the required time frame whilst TRAVELLING AT NORMAL ROAD SPEEDS.
I appreciate that there are many extremely keen retained firefighters out there who wish to respond to incidents as quick as possible and I admire this quality immensly, but it is vitally important that they get to the station safely and without putting anyone at risk.
Fire services often lack an understanding of what goes through the firefighter's mind when they get called out from home and the rush of adrenaline that they get and often accidents that occur because of these situations are dealt with purely through discipline proceedures. What would be better is if fire authorities looked at the problem and educated our firefighters better as to their reasons why it is important that all firefighters attending stations from home, work or where ever do so in a manner which will allow them to get on the pump and fulfill their role efficiently and effectively. If the problem is that some firefighters never get on the pump because of the distance they live, a solution may be to organise call ot groups, similar to watches on wholetime stations. This creates a fair and equal opportunity for eveyone and spreads the experience amongst the crew.
If a fire authority allowed individuals to have their own blue lights on their private vehicles, they would be advocating their personnel to drive in the same manner as appliances en route to incidents. For this to happen, the authority would have to give each individual efad training, without this training, the authority would be acting negligably and would be liable in a court of law following any accident or incident. In addition to this, every firefighter would have to have a different car insurance policy which would allow this and who would pay for this and my final point is, who would ensure on the fire authorities behalf that your vehicle is servicable and safe to drive as an emergency response vehicle. The cost implications would be so high to cover all of this, that the authority would have to make a large increase in council tax payments. At the end of the day there will be huge protests to this as the authorities have to justify every penny spent. It is important to remember that under the Freedom of Information Act, anyone can ask where their council tax money is being spent and if the public found what could equate to millions of pounds being spent in this way when it clearly states that firefighters will respond from home at normal road speeds.
As a former retained firefighter, I fully understand the frustration of being held up on the way to the station, but it is imperative to maintain a safe environment for everyone, that even means the firefighter attending station to go to a shout. I don't feel that there is any sound argument for giving retained firefighters blue lights for their personal cars and if there are any exceptions to this, they should be made on an individual basis after an in depth investigation in to the positives and negatives of this. Once again I applaud the firefighters that are keen to do a good job on behalf of the people they serve but I firmly believe that the rule is there for a good reason.
Sorry if this message upsets you but I think it puts the argument across fairly.
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How many retainers have been charged addtional premium when they have declared their use of private motor vehicle use, includes using them to get to the station?
I knew of 1 RT station that, depending on which direction they were to go from the station, depended on whose kit was up loaded, to collect riders en-route!
This is a long reigning topic and probably will continue per non endum, but there seem too many reasons of logistics, legalities and mis-use for RT's to be given blues & 2's for their own personal vehicles. So many [un-official] vehicles are already on the road using "light shows" bought from various motor catering accessory shops, to try and pressure themselves an extra few metres or vehicle lengths ahead, putting so much at risk. Adrenaline for emergency service workers is already starting to pump from time of alert, why add to it?
Advertising to the bad people out there that your motor may belong to or connected with emergency services can increase likely hood of getting it broken into or stolen.
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I think the botom line here, is some stations, have sensible firefighters, some, have firefighters that are not so sensible. Some stations have wide open lanes to them, others have tight bends, blind corners etc etc. If this was ever a reality, some stations will only benefit. Others, may end up regretting it. And aside from the stations, some villages may end up regretting it.
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so very very fishy
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I think the botom line here, is some stations, have sensible firefighters, some, have firefighters that are not so sensible. Some stations have wide open lanes to them, others have tight bends, blind corners etc etc. If this was ever a reality, some stations will only benefit. Others, may end up regretting it. And aside from the stations, some villages may end up regretting it.
Well put AON. It would give a new meaning to a Balistic missile out of control.
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so very very fishy
Well spotted. HelenJames's posts are indeed looking unhuman. Banned. Helen, if you are reading this, PM me with an explanation and I'll consider letting you back on.
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cheers - im good arent i