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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Vishal on October 16, 2007, 04:08:18 PM
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I am having my loft conversion done to my existing 2 storey det property. A new staircase has been built to lead into the loft and there will be a fire door at the bottom of the stairs. however, BCO has said I need to ensure all doors on the 1st floor are self closing; all doors on the ground floor are upgraded to fire doors and a door is put between the kitchen and dining area to seal off from the passage to the front door. non of this was on the original plans or the revised plans. the first floor doors can be made compliant but the downstairs doors are handcrafted solid oak. There is no way I would want to change them to fire doors or put any laminate on them. also, to put a door between the Kitchen and Dining area would mean adding a wooden frame to the existing internal exposed brickwork feature and thus reducing the size of the dining room and blocking off the pantry. I know i should be grateful someone is looking at my welfare and safety, but surely there must be another way round this. AD B volume 1 2006 edition is what i have been referencing. Ideas welcome.
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ADB vol 1 dont ask for self closing doors - so somebody is getting things wrong
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Can understand your situation.
Can only suggest, and it could cost a few bob but may be worth it, that you take off your hand crafted doors and put on cheap fire doors, try and borrow self closers and put a !/2 door and frame in the corridor. When the completion cert is issued take the whole lot out again and return the house to the way you want it.
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Whatever you do make sure you've plenty hard wired smoke alarms and get your local Fire and Rescue Service out to do a free CFS Home Safety check!
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Vishal
An interesting dilema!..............page 19 ADB vol1 gives examples of FR requirements and does show fd for doors leading onto the staircase enclosure and to provide separation in other circumstances. Both definitions in the DEFINITIONS section are suitable vague............and are never the definitions I would use for FRSC doors. You say that none of these extra issues were included in your original plan documents, presumidly approved by BC... thats important as Vol1 cannot be retrospective..............so I suggest you check the dates of the documentation carefully. if they BC continue to insist....ask them to prove their requirements and I would be interested to see their response.. so we can all shall in their expert knowledge.
Please keep us all informed.
Conqueror.
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All, many thanks for the input. I had a look at the last set up plans submitted by my architects and the only mention of FD is for the loft stairs. However, I received the notice from the Council to say that BC has approved and sent the notice to my agent. Guess if there have been any changes to the original plans that i am not aware of, i will need to wait till i get visibility of the notice and then decide which path to take. The BCO did mention something about painting the ground floor doors but he would need evidence that the paint would be comply with the regulations???? All very confusing to me.
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Hi Vishal
Does your original design incorporate a window exit from the loft conversion?
As you probably know the rules for loft conversions changed on 6 April 2007. I wonder if yours was originally designed to the old version of Approved Document B but if work did not start till April 7 the new rules would be applied.
Old rules asked for existing doors onto the old staircase to be made self closing (rising butt hinges would do), a fire door (FD20) across the bottom or top of the new stair, with a window exit from the loft conversion of suitable size and in a position from where a ladder rescue could be made. If no window exit was possible then existing doors between any room and the staircase should be replaced by FD20 self closing doors. In either case an open plan staircase is a no-no.
New rules ask for new FD20 doors but these do not need seals or doors to be self closing. You are not allowed to have an open plan staircase unless you install sprinkers in the ground floor open plan rooms and separate the landing with a fire resisting screen and FD20 door so persons can descend to the first floor and escape through a first floor window without being affected by smoke coming up the open stairwell.
As for your oak hand crafted doors, oak has a very slow char rate so if the joints and glue will stand up to a fire (modern glues will) provided the panels are thick enough and theres no glazing you may need to do little or nothing to improve them to a 20 minute standard. Many of the companies that market intumescent paints and varnishes have had their upgrades properly tested to BS476 so if you follow their system the Building Inspector cannot refuse to accept them.
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Lawman
You say 4 kids dies locally in a fire.....Where was that?......please give details.
Conqueror
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Hi kurnal,
I have just had the new plans come through today. it shows some of the GF doors as needing to be FD30s and a door between the kitchen and passage.Some of the GF doors have been ommitted from the Plans for some reason. no doubt this will bite me in the rear!! There are 3 velux windows in the loft along with a double dorma at the top of the loft stairs. One of the Velux is large enough for escape.
I just now need to find someone who can tell me if i can just paint my existing GF doors. Any idea who i need. most companies only deal with organisations and not domestic. or can i just buy these paints from B&Q?
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Hi Vishal
first thing is to be clear on which version of the Approved document is relevant, I assume as your initial posting you are workin to the 2006 edition that applies to all work commencing on site after April 6 2007.
If this is the case the next thing is that the standard for fire doors in dwelling houses is FD20. The doors must be to a 20 minute fire resisting standard not 30 minutes, they do not need seals or to be self closing. I can quote the para numbers from ADB if you need.
Are your doors hand made for your house or are they available off the shelf? If so are they sold as having any fire resisting performance?
If they were made specially for you then the best approach would be contact a firm such as Envirograf- I believe the sponsors of this website are agents. They do a CD catalogue showing their products and a spec on how to use them, along with a video of an ad hoc fire test of a door upgraded using their products. There are other companies in the same field- and much advice from people like the ASDMA and Chilternfire.co.uk- formerly BMTRADA.
Oak and hardwoods generally perform better than softwoods in a fire- char rate is slower and char helps protect the wood beneath it. So irrespective of the detail of your doors, if the design matches, size for size one of the sample doors treated and submitted for test by such as envirograf - which will be pine- your door is bound to perform better. The tests are to 30 minutes and remember you only have to achieve 20 minutes.
Cant really help you with the door between kitchen dining room and hall, the staircase does need to be enclosed and protected from a fire in any room. Unless you go for sprinklers. It does not sound like your BCO will settle for less, such as a protected first floor landing leading to a choice of alternatve window exits via separate first floor rooms. I have used this before in difficult situations.
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Hi Kurnal,
Many thanks for the details. I rang Envirograf and their paint solution is exactly what I want as my gound floor doors are hand made. Now just need to sell it to the BCO next week. I will just have to deal with the fire door between the kitchen and dining room. Many thanks for all your suggestions and advice. Before I found this site, I was struggling to obtain any information. Even the Fire Dept could not help me!!
regards
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Varnish is available as well as paint. Remember that you only have to provide a 20 minute standard, no closers or seals to comply with the current Building Regulations.
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Vishal,
You may want to look at my post of 12th September about loft converssions. I persuaded a Local Authority BCO to accept an LD1 AFD system as a compensatory feature for the FD20 doors. The entire shaft was already enclosed by close fitting panel doors. The Chief BCO did insist on the existing doors being fitted with self closers, which rather contradicts the new ADB!
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Brian
Dont you think the ADB is contradictory in itself? Does it make sense to be specific over the standard of doors- to specify FD20 - then not to also recommend self closers? To me this defies logic. I know people hate self closers in their homes but I dont recollect ever seeing a BS476 test on a door being carried out with the door open!!!
Your proposal for LD1 in itself without the self closers provides an enhanced level of safety over and above the benchmark standard in my opinion, because an open FD20 may as well not be there.
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I have a special door closer fitted in my house. It's permanently attached to my shoulder.
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Kurnal,
I think SC's or RBH's are a waste of time in a domestic dwelling. The Doors will be wedged during the day but hopefully closed at night, so I guess I agree with ADB.
The Chief BCO insisted on the SC's as well as LD1, I think that was politics, he didn't want to capitulate to my solution entirely. Unfortunately it is my client who will suffer
Brian
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Kurnal,
The way I had it explained to me by someone who was involved with the writing of the new ADB, was that even if you go to bed and leave to doors open, in the event of a fire starting downstairs it should be picked up by afd, and this should give you time to investigate and make the judgement as to getting straight out, or closing the door and retreating upstairs.
In my opinion, not much thought has given to the worst case scenario, i.e. a rapidly devoloping fire. Fair enough, most house fires probably start quite slowly and a mojority of furniture etc is flame retardant, but the worst WILL happen eventually, whether it involves curtains, a christmas tree (some good video footage of this particular case is on the net), clothing or something else, it can (And one WILL) develop fast.
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For what it's worth:
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/media/tree_fire.mpeg
Link to xmas tree fire for anyone who hasn't seen it. Before you decide to banish trees from your house and upset your kids this Christman, this tree is completely dried out. (There's another video showing the difference of a watered tree and a dry tree and they could not ignite the watered tree.)
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Yes CivvyFSO I too have heard that point of view but it doesnt sit very easily with me.
I recognise and accept that fire doors in private dwellings are most likely to be disabled and doors wedged and even the most disciplined people may forget to shut them at night it they have been on the razzle. This is a real problem making self closing doors basically unsuitable for life safety in private dwellings. But what other practicable solution are there? As you say full detection may be of benefit for a slow burning fire if its the right type of smoke. But for a faster developing fire the time line may do something like this
Door open
Ignition
1.5 minutes detector operates in room of origin
2 minutes smoke fills ceiling area and starts to fill stair
2.5minutes smoke detector in staircase oprates
4-5 minutes landing filled with smoke and possibly flame from doorway of open room
Available safe evacuation time from detection- 3- 3.5 minutes
Door closed
Ignition
1.5 minutes detector operates in room of origin
2 minutes smoke fills ceiling area and wisps of smoke may start to pass round edge of doorleaf
4 minutes Fire grows within room effects contained by closed door, smoke detector operates in staircase
5- 10 fire growth starts to be limited as a result of oxygen starvation, substantial developed fire in room but very little radiated or convective heat entering staircase
10-15 minutes substantial volume of smoke in head of stair
Available safe evacuation time 12-15 minutes
Conclusion
Closed doors give a 400% increase in your chance of making a safe escape down the stairs without risk of injury.
All these timings are off the top of my head and are not substantiated but illustrate a point. After all 87.999876756433% of statistics are made up on the spur of the momnent.
But from observation it illustrates the point that nothing else performs anywhere near as well as a closed door...... apart from sprinklers???.
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All,
Sorry to go off on a tangent but i now need a solution for the fire door to segregate the dining room from the passageway. As i mentioned it is currently openplan with a large wooden solid archway between the dining room and the passageway where the stairs are situated. I have been told i will need to block off the dining room with a door. however, in keeping with the rest of the house, I want to retain the wooden archway as it is handmade and am therefore looking at solutions to overcome the compliance issue. any ideas? by the way, the rest of the fireproofing of the existing hand carved doors has been resolved by Envirograf. so many thanks for that.
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Vishal
Can you leave the feature archway in place but infill the opening beneath it with a similar fire resisting structure and door?
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Kurnal,
I think that is what I am going to have to do. It means that I lose the the light and the opening of the archway as it will have to be filled in and a single door installed. However, at least i get to keep the look of the Archway.
Vishal