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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Dono on November 13, 2007, 12:26:30 PM
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Hi,
I live in a flat conversion at the top of a 3 story building and share the main exit stairs with the flat below, our internal front doors opening next to each other.
I have discovered that his living space is open plan and opens directly onto the main exit stairs. (His kitchen is enclosed though)
(It would have been built this way in about 1999) I think that according to buildling regulations this is illegal and also constitutes
a risk to my safety as a fire in this room could transder directly onto the main escape route of the property.
My questions are:
* Is this illegal?
* If so, can I legally force him to create an internal corridor inside his front door?
Am concerned and worried!
Cheers
Paul.
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Hi Dono
in order to give advice need to know if:-
a) are the flats rented or privately owned?
b) is there any form of smoke detection to your knowledge in either the staircase his flat or your flat?
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Hi retty:
the flats are owned on a leasehold. His is rented out to tenants.
There are built in fire alarms in the flats but not on the stairs.
Cheers
P
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Hi too Dono
Further to Midland Retty's advice can you tell if the door to his flat a self closing fire door?
You could approach Building Control and ask if the property has been issued with a completion certificate in respect of the conversion. You would have good reason under FOI.
This could help to determine if conversion was legal or otherwise.
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Hi
The front doors are not self closing, though I do think they are fire doors.
I will contact building control in the meantime. I hear that the developers were a bit dodgy and I would not have put it past them to have taken the wall down after getting sign off to make the space bigger and more saleable.
Is there a hard and fast rule about open plan opening onto a fire stairs or are other factors taken into consideration?
P
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May be alright, however if it hasn't been converted to recent Building regulations it may require smoke detection in the staircase to give you warning of a fire.
The way it probably works donno is that the detectors will only sound in each individual flat - so if youre neighbour burns their toast it will only set off their detector - it wont set off anybody elses.
It maybe that in addition to these localised smoke detectors a heat detector should be installed in each flat connected to a common alarm system - so that if your neighbours put on a pan of chips and fall asleep or pops down the shops forgetting theyve got chips cooking and fire occurs their smoke alarm will go off first and then the heat detector will activated to let everyone else know in the building of a fire.
Hard to say without seeing it really
If you are really worried probably best to give your local fire safety department and tell them of your concern - Im sure a fire officer would come out and have a look or put you in touch with local housing standards officer as they may have jurisdiction for fire safety matters in this instance.
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Which part of UK are you in?
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Hi
I'm in Clapham in South London
P
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Bear in mind that a flat can have an open layout as long as the travel distances do not exceed 9m. There is no need for a protected entrance hall in flats of a limited size, this may explain the arrangement.
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Bear in mind that a flat can have an open layout as long as the travel distances do not exceed 9m. There is no need for a protected entrance hall in flats of a limited size, this may explain the arrangement.
The concession you refer to is made in respect of means of escape within the flat in question. It does adversely affect the means of escape from other parts of the building.
Look at diagrams 7 and 9 in ADB and paras 2.20 and 2.21. There is nothing in ADB that would allow the layout you speak of. Removal of the internal screen and door should have been the subject of a building regs application and would have been turned down. If you get in touch with your local authority building control they will have enforcement officers who would be interested in putting the situation right.
Stu
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If there are bedrooms thet open onto the living space, this would make them Inner Rooms which are not allowed in ADB.
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Stu
Would it not depend on whether the flat is 1 or 2 storey? I would think that you could have a single storey open plan flat with a 1/2 hrfrsc entrance door with a further 1/2 door onto any common stairway.
The protection in stage 2 would be 1 fire door and in stage 3 an additional fire door.
Any thoughts?
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If there are bedrooms thet open onto the living space, this would make them Inner Rooms which are not allowed in ADB.
They are allowed up to a certain height and with emergency egress windows.
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Stu
Would it not depend on whether the flat is 1 or 2 storey? I would think that you could have a single storey open plan flat with a 1/2 hrfrsc entrance door with a further 1/2 door onto any common stairway.
The protection in stage 2 would be 1 fire door and in stage 3 an additional fire door.
Any thoughts?
Of course, this is tricky without a plan. It's like doing a risk assessment without a plan! Now where have I seen that discussed??
I was making some assumptions about the "main exit stairs" and the possibility of there being other flats in the building that used the staircase. But I think you're right in this case. I guess it's like diagram 9 b but without the need for the door at the head of the stairs as no-one else uses the stairs for means of escape.
So the answer has already been given - detection.
Stu
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When buildings are converted into flats sometimes compromises have to be made. A few key rules apply though- window exits cannot be considered for the upper floors of 3 storey buildings ( floor higher than 4.5m) but some imaginative solutions to difficult problems have involved a protected or alternative route down to first floor and a window exit from there. These arrangements of internal private stairs down to the first floor landing were also common and some did the job but many did not. If you have a private stair but all you have at first floor level is a window less landing leading to the common stair then you are no better off.
Your neighbour has a window as an alternative exit from his first floor flat - you have nothing.
To make it acceptable many of these arrangements had full fire alarm systems to flats and common areas- with heat detectors in each flat lobby and smokes in the common stair linked to a common alarm system and individual self contained smoke alarms in each flat. Self closers are also a must on flat entrance doors.
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Bear in mind that a flat can have an open layout as long as the travel distances do not exceed 9m. There is no need for a protected entrance hall in flats of a limited size, this may explain the arrangement.
The concession you refer to is made in respect of means of escape within the flat in question. It does adversely affect the means of escape from other parts of the building.
Look at diagrams 7 and 9 in ADB and paras 2.20 and 2.21. There is nothing in ADB that would allow the layout you speak of. Removal of the internal screen and door should have been the subject of a building regs application and would have been turned down. If you get in touch with your local authority building control they will have enforcement officers who would be interested in putting the situation right.
Stu
Stu,
I was talking about the internal layouts within the flat itself. The areas you are quoting are guidance for the common areas. Diagram 3 in ADB does most definitely allow an open plan flat to have a bedsit arrangement as long as the internal travel distances do not exceed 9m and as others have commented the bedroom is not an inner room (separated from the open plan area by a door). If the alteration has resulted in this situation, the layout is still potentially compliant.
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Absolutely.
Stu
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unfortunately, Building control will not be able to do anything. they have a time limit of 12 months in which to enforce changes retrospectively. after this period there is nothing they can do. unless of course the work required planning consent, then the local council would have 10 years, i think?.
however, as Midland Retty said, call the local fire Authority. they could maybe do something under the Regulatory Reform Order. however, anything they do would only be in relation to the protection of the common parts, i.e. a fire alarm