FireNet Community
THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: John Dragon on November 20, 2007, 08:13:01 AM
-
Fire exit sign with arrow pointing to right, fitted over a door.
This means "go through this door and turn right" or am I wrong?
A risk assessor has decided that the sign must be replaced with a fire exit with arrow down as he says that my sign means turn right before the door.
My position is that his sign means "go through this door and change level downwards"
My main query is - if an exit sign is fitted over a door, does it mean "go through this door and turn to the direction of the sign" or "turn to the direction of the sign before this door" ?
-
John
BS5499 pt 4 shows your sign to mean 'progress to the right from here'
The RA sign means 'progress down to the right from here'
Whilst there is no sign for what you want (why?), the nearest is arrow pointing north east.
This has a secondary meaning of 'progress forward and across to the right'.
The other choice is arrow straight up meaning 'progress forward from here'.
It would depend how close the right turn is through the door and whether it is obvious you have to go through the door. perhaps you might need two signs
-
I think the risk assessor is after the standard sign for above a door, i.e. arrow vertically down, person running into fridge. If so, that clearly leads you through the door, then a simple relocation of the sign you already have and the problem is solved.
-
People
If you all deliberating the signage what chance has a member of the public in a state of panic?
-
One concise explanation can be found here:
http://www.jaliteaaa.co.uk/Guidance2.htm
more here:
http://www.safetysignsatwork.co.uk/legislation.asp
But there has been a very informative previous thread here:
http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2055
-
John
Kurnal's top link is sound as it is a lift from the BS, the second one covers more about the environment such as veiwing distances, all good stuff.
On a lighter note, I presume your sign has the running man in the white door, this means the same as man running towards white fridge, though some would tell us different!
-
One concise explanation can be found here:
http://www.jaliteaaa.co.uk/Guidance2.htm
more here:
http://www.safetysignsatwork.co.uk/legislation.asp
But there has been a very informative previous thread here:
http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2055
Kurnal.
Would the passengers on a Clapham Omnibus be able to explain the meaning of the signs?
-
The passengers on the omnibus would not be likely to be asked.
It neednt get that far because I believe that whatever the problems there may be, my learned friends would not be able to make any more sense of the mess that the safety industry, enforcers, manufacturers and standards organisations have made of this, than you or I .
Now ask the passengers on an aeroplane what they understand by an exit sign and they will point to a text only, 25mm red lettering on a white backgound in english without any graphics. In full international use and presumably understood by all????
To answer John Dragons question directly the correct/best? solution in my opinion is to place a BS5499 sign with an arrow pointing straight ahead (up) over the door and immediately having passed through the door an additional sign pointing to the right.
There are situations where sudden changes of direction can be difficult to sign in a sensible manner, especially for example where it is necessary to turn immediately having passed through a door although there is also a corridor straight ahead. Its a situation that is not well addressed by any of the current approved standards/ regulations IMO.
Personally I think I would understand the meaning of the sign as John has installed it but there is no evidence that other people would.
-
To answer John Dragons question directly the correct/best? solution in my opinion is to place a BS5499 sign with an arrow pointing straight ahead (up) over the door and immediately having passed through the door an additional sign pointing to the right.
Thats way too sensible.
-
John, where do you go after you pass through the door, as this affects the sign you should have?
-
John, where do you go after you pass through the door, as this affects the sign you should have?
You are now in a square lobby of approx 4 foot x 4 foot and need to turn right immediately through a door that I have similarly marked with a "fire exit arrow right" as (guess what?) you need to go through this door and again turn immediately right and proceed to a final exit.
This place is in serious danger of ending up with more fire exit signs than remaining wall!
Thanks for all input.
John.
-
I did a straw poll of people, both in the job & not, and most think that if a door has a sign above with a right handed arrow it means 'not this door, go right instead'
Should a door need to be passed through to get to an exit the arrow should point up (although I would not split hairs in reality if it was, as is common, downwards).
Once in the lobby (which is small) if there is no other doors other than the continuation of the route and the door you have just come through then you only require a directional up arrow to go through the second door - you only really would need a right arrow if there was a choice of directions.
Although Pt 4 is rather obsessed with millions of signs you need to use common sense. A good test for clear signs is to get someone not familiar with the building to lead you out via the alternative routes & observe how easy it is for them to follow the route and note any confusion they have
-
Agreed AB but the arrow is a supplementary sign and there are times when it is better not to use one, Final Exit for example.
-
The simple answer is that you are trying to do the job of two signs with one. First get the evacuee through the door then get him to go to the right. This is such a simple form of communication. The arrow up means straight on which is the same convention that you would interpret from an arrow or direction information anywhere else. That is an understood convention.
The Standard BS5499 Part 4 2000 is so simple and is replicated world wide within ISO 7010 and ISO 16069 Safety Wayguidance Standard.
-
O.K what about this scenario. A common area landing with lift & 4 flats, with 1hr fire doors. The wall separating the lobby from the rear stairwell/fire escape route consists of a 1hr fire door and 3.3 sqm of georgian wired glass. The two flat doors furthest from the fire door are 4.5 metres away, on each floor. Should there be a fire exit sign above the fire door to the stairs (if so illuminated, normal or photoluminescent). Or is it so obvious where to go that any sign is unnecessary. If a sign is required above the door, could the arrow be pointing diagonally down to the right, as once you pass through the fire door the stairs are immediately to your right; there is no mounting point in front of you, and if the sign was mounted on the ceiling, you'd be standing directly underneath it. There is wall 2.2 metres to your right, but you'd be already decending the stairs at that point. It was worth joining the forum just to get that lot out of my system. Your help please.
-
Only way out and therefore a sign is unnecessary.
-
Quite right, the risk assessment determines the need for signs. If your risk assessment deems that signs are not required there is no need for signs. People that un unfamiliar with the environment will need more reassurance than those that are familiar. Escape Route Signs sited and installed inaccordance with BS5499 Part 4 2000 can be deemed to ensure that from any location within a building the escape route signs will lead you to a place of safety.
The system and convention for arrow directions is established by International Standard ISO 16069 for Safety Wayguidance and is exactly the same as BS 5499 Part 4 2000... Arrow up.. Straight On......Arrow down.....Down from here.
No Arrow down over doors!! Arrows are indicating direction of escape not pointing to doors, floors or ceilings.!!!
It really is not rocket science, its intuitive, simple and effective. BS5499 Part 4 2000
-
How many premises have botched signage?? Here's an idea to get you wound up if your bored: Tommorow check all the E/E signage in one premises, superstore, office - whether the signage be E/L or Rigid Plastic.
What percentage is there an Arrow Down in a position where it is trying to say "Onward from here" i.e. It should be Arrow Up but an "Expert" or "Person with Authority" thinks the Arrow DOWN means Onward or Though Here. WHY?????
(Teeth grinding)
Spoke to an installation sparky recently who said he was as frustrated but apparently his suppliers only supply Left/Right or Down. A bigger issue than simply specification maybe?
-
O.K what about this scenario. A common area landing with lift & 4 flats, with 1hr fire doors. The wall separating the lobby from the rear stairwell/fire escape route consists of a 1hr fire door and 3.3 sqm of georgian wired glass. The two flat doors furthest from the fire door are 4.5 metres away, on each floor. Should there be a fire exit sign above the fire door to the stairs (if so illuminated, normal or photoluminescent). Or is it so obvious where to go that any sign is unnecessary. If a sign is required above the door, could the arrow be pointing diagonally down to the right, as once you pass through the fire door the stairs are immediately to your right; there is no mounting point in front of you, and if the sign was mounted on the ceiling, you'd be standing directly underneath it. There is wall 2.2 metres to your right, but you'd be already decending the stairs at that point. It was worth joining the forum just to get that lot out of my system. Your help please.
Assuming no issues with listed building regs : F/E c/w Arrow Up above the Fire Door to stairs. F/E Arrow Down Right ceiling mounted OR on stairwell wall along the wall opposite the door (assuming there is a visual potential there? If not - stick to ceiling mount on stairwell).
Do Not Use Lifts In Event Of Fire at lift control call button point. Fire Action Notice and MCP sign at MCP.
Do to close proximity of visual distances the sign text size can also be reduced from the standard 150 x 450mm F/E sign - see www.meansofescape.co.uk for the veiwing tables.
Not in Bournmouth though are you? They may have an issue with safety signage :)
-
How many premises have botched signage?? Here's an idea to get you wound up if your bored: Tommorow check all the E/E signage in one premises, superstore, office - whether the signage be E/L or Rigid Plastic.
What percentage is there an Arrow Down in a position where it is trying to say "Onward from here" i.e. It should be Arrow Up but an "Expert" or "Person with Authority" thinks the Arrow DOWN means Onward or Though Here. WHY?????
(Teeth grinding)
Spoke to an installation sparky recently who said he was as frustrated but apparently his suppliers only supply Left/Right or Down. A bigger issue than simply specification maybe?
I bought six of a different make of illuminated exit sign last week, made by Eterna, they came with 4 rigid plastic legends (up, down, left and right), never seen that before!
-
.........Spoke to an installation sparky recently who said he was as frustrated but apparently his suppliers only supply Left/Right or Down. A bigger issue than simply specification maybe?
Cooper Lighting who own the well-known JSB and Menvier brands manufacture dozens of emergency lighting models with signage, but I can't find any they make with an 'UP' arrow. If even the big manufacturers don't make 'em how can the installers fit 'em?
-
........I bought six of a different make of illuminated exit sign last week, made by Eterna, they came with 4 rigid plastic legends (up, down, left and right), never seen that before!
I had a look at the Eterna website and they show a 'self-adhesive' legend pack where the arrow could be placed in any orientation.
The Eterna range of E/L fittings seemed to be for the 'budget' end of the market and didn't include any low-voltage luminaires for slave fitting systems. So these wouldn't be suitable for everyone
Does anyone know of proper sign boxes for low-voltage slave fitting use with UP arrows?
-
Short of getting blanks & sticking on the appropriate legends from Jactone (where you can use BS symbols and text as well as arrows) or others (if you want the EC man, arrow, fridge) I can't think of any off the top of my head ex-stock although BLE Lighting & Fire http://www.blesales.co.uk/ do a large range of fittings and offer custom legends in addition to their stock left, right & down arrows
-
Precisely my point, the manufacturers have for whatever reason, ceased supplying the Up Arrow. Why? Who knows. Possibly the usual routine of one manufacturer copying anothers design or to reduce costs / increase sales by deciding reducing a "confusing" choice with one forward arrow would suffice. Maybe the EN Directive was a turning point for the major players who cross sell around Europe, once the UK signed in to the EN Directive it led to a single market therefore one product meant increased profits. Bah Humbug ..Capitalists!!!
-
How many premises have botched signage?? Here's an idea to get you wound up if your bored: Tommorow check all the E/E signage in one premises, superstore, office - whether the signage be E/L or Rigid Plastic.
What percentage is there an Arrow Down in a position where it is trying to say "Onward from here" i.e. It should be Arrow Up but an "Expert" or "Person with Authority" thinks the Arrow DOWN means Onward or Though Here. WHY?????
(Teeth grinding)
Spoke to an installation sparky recently who said he was as frustrated but apparently his suppliers only supply Left/Right or Down. A bigger issue than simply specification maybe?
Does it really matter which way the arrow is pointing for the 'ahead' direction?????
OK it's not located as per the BS, but as long as it's meaning is clear and cannot be misunderstood - who cares?
In addition, it's important to establish that the the positioning of the 'wrong sign' cannot confuse a downward route (which isn't an escape route) with the actual designated escape route. To me, it seems that changing the sign is a waste of money and achives very littel
The most important issue is that the sign is (or could be) understood by all that have to use it. After all, how many punters would have a clue which way up the sign should be??
-
Ah! I feel a posting from Jim C may be imminent!
This topic has been discussed at length before, we generally all fall out about it and start blaming each other for the mess over exit signage. Meanwhile I refer the honourable Gentleman to the guidance to the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals Regulations) published by the HSE and to the BS5499 and leave you to scrap it out between you, Everyone is right and nobody is wrong whatever your views on this!
-
How many premises have botched signage?? Here's an idea to get you wound up if your bored: Tommorow check all the E/E signage in one premises, superstore, office - whether the signage be E/L or Rigid Plastic.
What percentage is there an Arrow Down in a position where it is trying to say "Onward from here" i.e. It should be Arrow Up but an "Expert" or "Person with Authority" thinks the Arrow DOWN means Onward or Though Here. WHY?????
(Teeth grinding)
Spoke to an installation sparky recently who said he was as frustrated but apparently his suppliers only supply Left/Right or Down. A bigger issue than simply specification maybe?
Does it really matter which way the arrow is pointing for the 'ahead' direction?????..........
.........The most important issue is that the sign is (or could be) understood by all that have to use it. After all, how many punters would have a clue which way up the sign should be??
Car drivers understand that an upward pointing arrow on a sign means straight ahead. If the arrow was pointing downwards, maybe they would turn around and drive the other way! Surely, very dangerous in an emergency situation :)
-
If you just want people to go through a door - you dont need an arrow. Just put the pictogram on or over the door.
-
WB, Wow thats controversial making people understand where to go. BS 5499 and the Signs and Signals Regs are far more explicit.
-
Contraversial is my middle name. If a door is a fire exit just put a fire exit sign on it.
What else would people do other than walk through it? Perhaps with an up arrow by the door people will try and climb through the fanlight over the door?
-
Contraversial is my middle name. If a door is a fire exit just put a fire exit sign on it.
What else would people do other than walk through it? Perhaps with an up arrow by the door people will try and climb through the fanlight over the door?
Sorry WB, i was waffling about the guidance route to the F/E i.e. How to get to the fanlight not what to do when you got there....It's a Final Exit sign at the F/E - no arrow ;)
-
Ahh, but what do you do once outside. How do people disperse, where do they disperse to. Rhode island had a classic whereby people could leave but could not disperse, then you get back up of people that turned into bodies. Unfortunately as a result of attempts to "do" DDA correctly many premises now have barriers outside with steps to one side and a ramp to the other. You need easy flow and then when people have to make a decision you have a pause and then stopping of the people behind.
-
Well I doubt that a sign would have helped.
Not putting pyrotechnics under exposed poly-whatsname insulation would have been a better idea.
-
What about the marvellous Tactile Rip Off Signs? Imagine: F/A screaming away, blind chap alone on a ground floor corridor with a F/E at the end. What does he do? Well of course the company have informed him of their DDA awareness and the fact that these things are at head height to aid his MoE, so he spends the rest of his life, before being overcome by fumes, with his hands on a wall looking for a Fire Exit Arrow Right or Left in "Tactile" !?!?!?!?
What a bloody dangerous con.
These things are fine in the right location: A hotel bedroom with a tactile fire action notice for example is very practical.