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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on December 03, 2007, 08:41:21 PM
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As the result of an enquiry I received on metal fires I have been researching portable fire extinguishers and when I looked at the British Standards I found EN 3 parts 1 to 5 have been withdrawn but part 6 is still current and as it relates to parts 1 to 5 so why has it not been withdrawn?
EN 3 Part 7:2004 has superseded the above parts 1 to 5 and parts 8 and 9 :2006 are Additional requirements to EN 3-7 you also have to refer to BS 5306, BS 7863 and BS 7937 why do they make it so difficult?
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Not difficult - profitable! Unless you subscribe to OHSIS or similar you have to cough up loadsamoney for all the paperwork - & more changes are afoot!
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I agree with you Anthony but could you explain why part 6 is current as it relates to Parts 1-5?
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I too spend ages researching a BS standard for metal fires and no doubt arrived at the same result as yourself. As for the Part 6, I believe an updated version is due this year or have I heard incorrectly - it was late one night (hic!) during an Ammerex course! ;)
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Just hope you aint as cheerful come 5pm next Saturday. Up the Rams!
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Just hope you aint as cheerful come 5pm next Saturday. Up the Rams!
Wrong shaped ball Kurnal (good luck)!!!
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Tw & psuedonym
Anything that you would like to share with regard to ext and metal fires would be appreciated as I have said I would look into them for a client that operates a recycling centre and when I asked about experiance with metal fire there were a few raised eye brows with regard to water and which metls could be spectacular. Had a couple in the area many years ago with spectacular results, just glad not to be on duty on those occasions.
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Colonel it was portable extinguishers I was researching not necessaryily metal fires.
However I remember a plane crashing on a factory in Speke Liverpool (1960`s). Part of its undercarriage ended up in a field nearby well alight. They used water from a distance, creating a fine firework display but never the less the standby was reduced considerably.
Also I remember one of the instructors at Moreton (the mad Irishman), taking chemistry, did a demo of the thermite reaction and then putting a little water on it, the entire front row had to change their shirts. They also did demonstrations on the fireground.
My biggest problem was finding a supplier of suitable potable extinguishers for metal fires eventually I found two, with the help of AnthonyB
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I see that this 11 year old (and soon to be replaced) publication is now £118 to non BSI members! A few libraries used to stock BSs in their reference sections or hold them on microfiches, etc - but I suspect that either the BS people got wise to this or the libraries also found them too expensive. This stuff really ought to be publically available on the Net (like legislation) these days.
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For a non-profit making organisation, where does all the money go?
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Tw & psuedonym
Anything that you would like to share with regard to ext and metal fires would be appreciated as I have said I would look into them for a client that operates a recycling centre and when I asked about experiance with metal fire there were a few raised eye brows with regard to water and which metls could be spectacular. Had a couple in the area many years ago with spectacular results, just glad not to be on duty on those occasions.
One really does have to remember that the action one expects an employeee to take (if he/she wants to) in dealing with a fire should be within the reasonable capabilities of the average person.
It would be quite wrong to try and expect normal workers to be able to deal with something other than the initial outbreak of a normal fire. The saying in the F&RS is that if you can't put it out with one extinguisher then leave it and get out yourself.
Fires which are of a special nature should be dealt with firstly by fire prevention, and if that fails - evacuation.
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You are right nearlythere- but there is another angle on this.
What equipment and expertise to the average fire brigade to deal with specialist fires? They do usually argue that if the employer creates a special risk then it is down to the employer to manage that risk which includes provision of specialist equipment. We see this at major chemical plants- who are rightly expected to provide foam stockes and equipment, in the mines, in the nuclear industry. Yes the staff expected to use this equipment must have suitable and sufficient training.
Heres an example- one of my clients is a major metal recycler. They deal with reactive metals - titanium, magnesium ets sometimes finely subdivided, and prone to spontaneous ignition. Big bad fires especially if metals are mixed!!! Just before they called me in they had one fire and were singularly ill prepared for it. The fire involved a drum of titanium turnings amongst other drums - value £18k per tonne. They called in the local brigade who put water jets on the fire and had to retreat hastily. They have now changed their mode of storage, are much more careful over stock control and segregation, have provided ammerex class D extinguishers and given staff training in how to use them. If they have another fire is it likely that the brigade will have ever encountered this type of extinguisher and know how to use it? Not in my day they wouldn't.
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For a non-profit making organisation, where does all the money go?
I sat for a few years on a BSI Committee dealing with fixed fire-fighting equipment. We met around three times a year, originally in central London and then at Chiswick. Every meeting involved about a 2inch thick stack of paper for each member of the committee (circa 30) - that's a lot of printing and postage and not easy to do over the internet either. And we were just one of many hundreds of committees. They all need the BSI secretariat to handle the paperwork, collate comments, issue new standards and amendments.....
Perhaps if BSs were entirely electronic the price could come down, but I can see problems even in that - they'd have to be in a tamper-proof format so people could not sneak in their own 'little' alterations for a start.
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I know of an IO who is recommending that a hospital install hose reels for use by their staff prior to the arrival of the Brigade. Now when the Brigade arrive they will wear PPE, BA, double up to protect each other and have comms to somewhere. Can anyone explain the sense of this to me?
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I know of an IO who is recommending that a hospital install hose reels for use by their staff prior to the arrival of the Brigade. Now when the Brigade arrive they will wear PPE, BA, double up to protect each other and have comms to somewhere. Can anyone explain the sense of this to me?
Can't really.
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Well somebody has got to try and put the fire out whilst the brigade are outside doing their dynamic risk assessments.
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Of course it is only a recommendation. You can recommend anything you like.
The DRA should also give cognisance to the fact that there could be staff members in the building firefighting the fire with a hosereel. Or maybe there isn't.
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Presumably recommending that they have their own in-house trained and kitted brigade as well?
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My experience with sourcing the spec for metal fires was borne through a service of a firm who dealt with metal ingots. Melted them down in one of three foundries and processed the results to forward on to their clients. A fire erupted in a warehouse in which were 20 plus pallets, single storey, of mixed metal ingots. Covered with 2 x 9Kg ABC powder.
Throughout site were ABC powder, water and AFF Foam. The foundries themselve were covered with the same.
The Brigade came through, unwound their hoses but before the yound lad blew himself up it was suggested that perhaps he didn't try to put out the fire with water. Neither he nor his collegues were too chuffed when a mere extinguisher engineer tried to tell him his job but tough ****. We all survived to have a brew.
I spent a long time pouring through the firms COSHH sheets and trying to find BS or EN spec on metal fires from manufacturers, suppliers, powder manufacturers etc. To no avail, I found nothing to specifiy Standards for metal fires.
Then someone pointed out the obvious: metal comes in all shapes, sizes, types, storage, etc so to standardise an extinguishant or create a spec. is impossible. Each case is unique.
All I do now when asked to specify types and sizes of extinguishers for metal fires is check out the COSHH and then the type of Class D powder required to cope with a particular metal, as has already been written in earier posts, there are many manufacturers with specific types of Class D powder for specific metals.
As with any new kit, training is vital if the kit is to be used. As for sizes, there are 9Kg,12Kg and then wheeled mobile units. Do as much homework as you can before you purchase fire cover and ensure it is the correct medium for the specific risk. We are legally obliged to ensure the client has the correct kit for the risk presented in every premises and they fully expect that. But the customer is also obliged to ensure staff are trained in what to do in the event of a fire.
In the above case all problems were covered with Amerex 9Kg, staff training and upgraded signage warning in restrictive use of water.