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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: kurnal on December 12, 2007, 10:46:37 PM

Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on December 12, 2007, 10:46:37 PM
I am working on evacuation plans for a couple of local care homes.
Looking to progressive horizontal evacuation, nice wide corridors, nice narrow matresses,  many of the residents are bedridden so the best method for night time evacuation will be on the mattress if we can do it . We have 3 staff available and smallish protected areas- biggest is 8 beds. A few air mattresses though.

In the past we used mattress straps and skid sheets as evacuation aids in the old cottage hospitals- is this still a reasonable option and does anybody know where evacuation aids may be sourced? Tried googling without much success. Many suppliers seem hung up on manual handling regs and talk about 7 handlers for these things nowadays. We used to do it with 2 and I believe this is still a reasonable goal in a real emergency.

Any views would be welcome.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: slubberdegullion on December 13, 2007, 01:01:28 AM
kurnal,

I guess it can be assumed that the beds do not have wheels and cannot be moved.  I understand that generally the residents' like the place to look like a home and not a hospital.

I'm not surprised at the views on manual handling you've come across.  Not because I, too, am hung up on the regs but because I recognise that a large part of the world has gone health and safety bonkers!  See below:

(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o128/slubberdegullion2/Sign.jpg)

Am I right in supposing the procedure would be, in the worst case, 8 bedded room for example, one staff member dealing with the fire and the other two moving the other residents out of the compartment to safety - probably just out the room in the first instance?  These two would lift the mattress down with the resident on it then drag it out?

I can't help you in sourcing what you're looking for but what about having a couple of evac+chairs available instead - they're good for on the flat.  I understand that it would take extra time to transfer the resident from bed to chair then, outside the room, from chair to some receiving point, but the travel time might be reduced to compensate, being on wheels.

Hmmm, I don't know though.  The more I think about it, the more cumbersome (and expensive) this seems and the more reasonable your method seems.  I guess the skid sheet is because you're on a carpet - what about if the skid sheet is long enough you wouldn't need straps.  If each bed had something like half a salvage sheet (a clean one, not straight off the pump!) ready for deployment next to it, the staff could lower the mattress onto that with a good bit of extra sheet at the bottom that they could grab hold of and pull.  Could even stitch in a rigid pole for a handle at the bottom end.  Could even patent it and sell it round the world.

No, maybe not, just imagine all the claims for bad backs coming in.

Sorry I'm not much help - just burbling on tonight. Some one else will have something for you.  

Whatever the solution the staff will have to be well versed in it and well practised.  You don't want the first time they've got to do it to be when the next bed is on fire.

Stu
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on December 13, 2007, 08:16:01 AM
Heres the scenario I am trying to set up- modern home 2 storey 41 residents 4 staff minimum, (we are lucky most have less staff) 4 protected areas on each floor 3 staircases.  

What I have in mind is this:

1-fire alarm sounds
2-All staff report to fire alarm panel roll call checking all doors closed as they go.
3-If cannot get to panel due to fire alternative control point outside main entrance via any available route.
4-On arrival at panel matron calls roll issues radios.
5-Checks panel information and silences alarm - not reset.
6- Matron sends 2 staff to affected zone and 1 person to call Fire Service
7- Matron stays at command point to meet fire service (5 mins away from nearest retained station)
8- 2 staff assess situation on arrival at zone- start to evacuate zone- if fire confirmed.
9- If no sign of fire open doors using door procedure to check.
10- If fire confrimed radio matron,  3rd staff member sent to help supervise residents in stage 1 evacuation point
11- Matron starts telephone tree for more help from local staff
12- When evacuating bedroom zone start with those nearest fire, furthest from exit, easiest to evacuate, easiest to supervise
13- If sleeping/ or sedated or non ambulant  do not try to wake or dress residents- use matress straps to secure resident in matress and 2 persons to drag matress 1 at head 1 at heel. Skid sheet under matress will help
14- there are 8 evacuation chairs per floor- these used for residents who do not need to be evacuated on matress and to rest residents in first stage evacuation area
15- when zone evacuated to stage one, move to stage 2- behind second set of fire doors away from fire.
16- consider if safe to check room of origin- if occupied- subject to door check.
16- as telephone tree brings in more staff they start evacuating zones next to fire- more relaxed and using chairs from other floor.
17- fire brigade arrive and take command


Any comments  welcome.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: BHCC on December 13, 2007, 08:34:25 AM
That all sounds fine kurnal but are local Fire Service have told us that we have to have a means of vertically evacuating residents as they cannot guarantee immediate arrival. We have had to move all our residents who cannot transfer themselves into an evac chair to the ground floor and close one of our carehomes.

The building that has been closed had no protected areas and the evac chairs could not be used on the staircases as the landings were too small.

Staffing levels at night were 2 for 22 residents.

The good thing is that a new purpose built unit is under construction! Who says the RRO is a bad thing!!!
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: slubberdegullion on December 14, 2007, 01:13:56 AM
Oh I see what the straps are for - I thought they were to pull the mattress.  Wouldn't strapping them in take up a fair bit of precious time.  They wont have long these poor hard working staff members.

Item 12 will be a hard call for them at a time of real stress.  I'd take time to discuss with them during training who they should go for first under various circumstances.  Make it absolutely clear they shouldn't try to save the unsaveable yet, at the same time, they should target the most vulnerable.  The near contradiction makes it difficult to judge.

I hate these rooms with a large number of residents.  The nightingale wards in hospitals can have even more people in them but at least they have wheeled beds and more staff immediately available.

Is there only one way out of this 8 bedded room?  And are there beds near the exit?

Stu
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: messy on December 14, 2007, 10:27:34 AM
Assuming that the Matron is the more experienced or more qualified member of staff (and a manager), is it wise to have her hanging about at the RVP waiting the best part of 10 minutes to meet and brief the fire crew when she might be better use controlling matters inside?

A subordinate member of staff could be used athe RVP and any relevant info on updates etc radioed to him/her if necessary
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: beltandbraces on December 14, 2007, 07:04:17 PM
Hi Kurnal

Try WWW.Hospitalaids.co.uk

Phone 01604 586501
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Redone on December 14, 2007, 07:34:34 PM
Google 'Albacmat'
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Chris Houston on December 14, 2007, 07:39:59 PM
Quote from: slubberdegullion
I recognise that a large part of the world has gone health and safety bonkers!  See below:

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o128/slubberdegullion2/Sign.jpg
Some would argue that laws to protect our health and safety are a good thing.

The sign is obvioulsy a photoshopped joke.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Redone on December 14, 2007, 07:49:30 PM
Couple of observations Kurnal.

We have stopped sending two staff, all staff have individual responsibility to read the (nearest) panel and proceed to the address and start the investigation, Senior takes charge on arrival... if the fire service are required, person sent to call, Senior stays... caller dials 999, then named off duty senior (who then instigates calling staff in via staff tree), then unlocks front doors.

We have hand held radios throughout on the floor plus two per level for other staff to pick up in emergencies.

The fire service pick up the handheld by the fire panel and are guided in by the staff, we don't have the staffing levels to lose someone at the door for 5 min's.

The initial number of residents that the staff can realistically evacuate to the adjacent zone inside 15 minutes determines the size our zone.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on December 14, 2007, 10:16:59 PM
Thanks for the links Beltandbraces and Redone- this is just the sort of kit I was thinking of. Will look into it.

Stu- I misled you - the rooms are all singles- the homes are designed to the draft green guide standards with protected areas of between 4 and 8 bedrooms on bedroom corridors between fire doors, two way travel throughout , but no self closers on bedroom doors. (These are now being fitted)

BHCC- yes we will provide a single evac+chair - as I see it there is no time limit for evacuation of the building once all relevant persons are at least two doors away from the fire.

Messy Yes I see where you are coming from. However I hope matron will be taking a more strategic position- bringing and directing resources rather than leading from the front. Whether that is reasonable when we are so short of staff is open to debate I think.

Whilst its the Responsible persons job to devise an effective emergency plan, It is still the duty of the fire service to attend fires and their attendance time will be scrutinised in the courts in the event of a serious incident. I dont think its reasonable to discount the fire service attendance.

I note that since last years flooding incidents CSCI are expecting managers to have an off site evacuation plan set up.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Paul2886 on December 15, 2007, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: Redone
Couple of observations Kurnal.

We have stopped sending two staff, all staff have individual responsibility to read the (nearest) panel and proceed to the address and start the investigation, Senior takes charge on arrival... if the fire service are required, person sent to call, Senior stays... caller dials 999, then named off duty senior (who then instigates calling staff in via staff tree), then unlocks front doors.

We have hand held radios throughout on the floor plus two per level for other staff to pick up in emergencies.

The fire service pick up the handheld by the fire panel and are guided in by the staff, we don't have the staffing levels to lose someone at the door for 5 min's.

The initial number of residents that the staff can realistically evacuate to the adjacent zone inside 15 minutes determines the size our zone.
And whilst the staff are attending the affected zone the fire alarm continues to ring confusing the unattended residents who may be tempted to wander around the building opening up the very fire doors that help create compartmentation, even getting into the lifts. The problem with 'all hands to the affected zone' as you suggest would be a problem in most care homes. If you have a several residents in the lounge for instance, and its remote from the affected zone, then surely  a member of staff should be assigned to ensuring they all stay put. I have conducted and witnessed many practice evacuations in care homes for a number of years and as you're all aware is a massive problem. It all boils down to staff awareness of the fire detection system and knowing how to use the time of an evacuated head, and the containment of the fire to the point or place of origin. It has proved more beneficial in most cases to assign two members of staff to check the affected area after meeting at the information panel. I could go on and on regarding this matter and invite all others to respond with any observations or points on this matter.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Ken Taylor on December 15, 2007, 05:57:15 PM
Ski-sheets tend to date from the time when floors were of lino or polished wood - so you could have problems with some of today's modern carpets. (Practice drills with these are best carried out with volunteer staff rather than residents) Have you considered using simple wheel-chairs (push type) for the horizontal bit? As for the vertical bit, presumably you don't have a usable lift in this one. Where there is a conventional lift, consideration should be given to the possibility of conversion to evacuation standard - particularly for 2-storey premises where the implication of conversion would be less. I've also seen an external enclosed chute from 1st to ground floor - but this could well have manual handling and care implications!
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Redone on December 16, 2007, 06:31:42 PM
No easy topic, for sure.  Agree about the alarms potential for confusion amongst residents PaulM, to cover this we silence the alarm once the cause as been determined.  This is done within about 90 seconds.

We do send staff to reassure residents from the affected area, but only after operations at the fire area are adequate for the risk of persons at risk from the fire.  Drills have shown this time delay to be about 3 - 7 minutes...  the exception to this is EMI wings, where a member of staff stays with these particular type of residents, whilst physically checking the EMI wing.  Residents won't be a problem opening compartment doors in the fire zone corridor, as we have suffcient numbers of staff on the spot.  External doors are alarmed, again we have suffcient staff in the zone corridor to respond... To be honest this has only happened once in 11 years, about 98% of our residents need assistance to go anywhere, which is a bonus regards wandering residents, but a bugger to empty the building with.

I could never approve the sending of two staff, whilst many hands are at an assembly point chomping at the bit, the designed in delay of getting hands to work would be easy meat for a good Solicitor should the evacuation go pair shaped, and there's been plenty of those this year.  We gain comfort and confidence in numbers in what we are trying to achieve and the staff prefer it.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Marek on December 17, 2007, 10:14:21 AM
Hi Kurnal as an ex fire officer and now a consultant  & trainer specialising in RCP's the response to the alarm as you describe is fine, it is also pleasing to see that you silence the alarm when all staff are accounted for at the panel.
The new guide recommends that the protected area (that is  all bedrooms within a corridor section) is evacuated within 2½ minutes of the alarm operating - from my experience this is not realistic or achievable. In some case it would take 2 carers this long to move one of their residents, not even allowing for the response time to the alarm.
In addition the guide suggests that rooms where it is not possible to move a resident (because of medical conditions or treatment) that it is made into a temporary refuge by upgrading the protection to 1 hour, plus a carer to stay in the room if in the effected area.
This 2½ minutes needs to be challenged, why have 30 minute doors to rooms. The fire door is to contain the fire within the room and protect the corridor; also in the case of the temp refuge scenario it is suggesting that there is a raging fire threatening the door from the corridor side, which in essence suggests combustibles within the corridor and all ½ hour doors into rooms being open.
Notwithstanding this, I do recognise the difficulties that staff have, there is a lot of expectation put upon them. Where I have come across homes that have corridors with 8-10 bedrooms I have recommended that where possible the corridor be further subdivided with the provision of a SCFD with vision panel on an EMR. This has, where actioned, been welcomed by staff when the reasoning behind it has been explained.
I beleive you have had the response regarding the Ski Pad and Evac Chairs.
With regards to staff responding to the zone area, where possible 3 are sent to check the area, 1 to reprt back thereby always having 2 staff together, more staff can be sent should there be a need. When there are minimum staff levels on duty the F&R should be called as a matter of priority - staff in my opinion should always work as a team, co-ordinate their checking of fire zones, (see the inquest reports on the chaotic situation at the BUPA home fire in Redcare wher 2 residents rooms were missed).
I would be interested to know how Fire Authority inspectors are approaching this 2½ minute statement, because as I stated at the beginning this is not realistic or achievable. If you think otherwise may I suggest that you visit a care home and witness the difficulties and time it take carers to move residents to and from from the dining room.
That is why homes have a higher level of AFD, Fire Separation, SCFD's, etc. Plus training that includes practical evacaution sessions.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Ken Taylor on December 17, 2007, 05:23:00 PM
I think there is almost unanimous agreement with your point about the 2 1/2 minutes Marek. Have a look at the earlier thread by Wee Brian '2.5 mins in res care' to see this discussed. In fact, residential care seems to be a major issue if the number of threads on the subject is a good indication.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: BHCC on December 18, 2007, 08:07:59 AM
Very interesting Marek

How do other carehomes deal with night time evacuation? All of our homes only have 2 staff on at night looking after up to 20 service users.

Nearly all of the service users would require assistance with some having to be hoisted into evac chairs. I've always said that if there was a fire at night there would be no way that the building would be evacuated. I have only just got the powers that be to agree with me that addressable fire alarm systems are required with repeaters on each level.

In one of our homes there was oxygen being stored in one of the so called refuge areas. None of this was mentioned in the FRA until I flagged it up.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Redone on December 18, 2007, 07:27:35 PM
On a wing and a prayer...  Recent incidents show they don't manage.

But you get what you pay for, and nobody wants to pay for the actual measures required to have a fighting chance of a rapid evac...

We keep the zones small, fit addressable panels, with repeat panels, still require closers on bedrooms and works to convert lifts that can be something suitable for use in an evacuation though.

We continually promote fire prevention, appoint competent persons to perform regular checks, training etc.

But, currently have problems with residents and smoking, especially with it being cold outside.

We recently had to fully evacuate 34 residents in the floods... God help us in a fire.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on December 18, 2007, 08:05:38 PM
With good management and all elements in place there should never be a need to fully evacuate a care home due to a fire- unless those oxygen cylinders go up I suppose....

But there is a fundamental difference between a fire and a flood. Mankind is powerless to stem floods of that magnitude. But those good guys on the red trucks are fully equipped to deal with any fire a care home can throw at them provided we stick to the rules.

 I think we should be allowed to take that  into account in our planning for emergencies.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Ken Taylor on December 19, 2007, 12:26:51 AM
I'm almost entirely with you, Kurnal - but do still remember planning for when it was the 'B Team' in the old green trucks - and then I think of Portsmouth gridlocked for hours due to a RTA on the motorway.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Clive on December 20, 2007, 08:19:55 AM
Whislt discussing Resi Care and evacuation problems and staffing levels at night, what are your opinions on the fire services not attending unless there is a confirmed fire ?

I have experience of fire brigades telling homes they will not attend because they have had 1 false alarm ( not always UWFS, and some times not even had 1) in one year unless there is a confirmed fire.  

How can you expect nursing staff to go into a roof void or where ever the signal is indicated to be, to check if there is a fire, in a building with a vulnerable, dependant , occupancy that requires all hands to the pump ( bad pun), to safely evacuate residents needing assistance, whilst also having a 2.5 minute evacuation time levelled at them, but still have staff going off to check on a fire then come back to call the fire service.

I understand the need to stop the number of UWFS, and the majority of them can be reduced by good management of the systems, but then to apply blanket rules to everyone, shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the risks in the outside world of the present fire service management.

The CFOA policy on UWFS does not lead anyone to stop attending signals via 999 in vulnerable buildings, in general the ARC's signals are the problem.  

In most homes they know immediatley if a cleaner as set off a detector so will not call the FRS, but if a detector has gone off somewhere in a building during the night where staff are not in the vicinity to have done something to cause UWFS, the sensible and safe approach is call the FRS straight away, and then join the ( possibly only one ) other members of staff in investigating and evacuating if required. if they then find no sign of fire they can re call the FRS and turn them around or let them proceed at a reduced speed.

The first time we have a serious fire and the fire service have not attended following a 999 call, I hope they are prepared to defend there action. Remember for years fire authorities have told people to extend the cover of detection systems, and into concealed areas (also the industry tells us how sophisticated and relaible they are), and now they want to ignore them.

And don't anyone say that the FRS will treat hospitals and resi care differently, because I am seeing the standard letters being sent to care homes.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Paul2886 on December 20, 2007, 10:05:14 AM
Quote from: Clive
Whislt discussing Resi Care and evacuation problems and staffing levels at night, what are your opinions on the fire services not attending unless there is a confirmed fire ?

I have experience of fire brigades telling homes they will not attend because they have had 1 false alarm ( not always UWFS, and some times not even had 1) in one year unless there is a confirmed fire.  

How can you expect nursing staff to go into a roof void or where ever the signal is indicated to be, to check if there is a fire, in a building with a vulnerable, dependant , occupancy that requires all hands to the pump ( bad pun), to safely evacuate residents needing assistance, whilst also having a 2.5 minute evacuation time levelled at them, but still have staff going off to check on a fire then come back to call the fire service.

I understand the need to stop the number of UWFS, and the majority of them can be reduced by good management of the systems, but then to apply blanket rules to everyone, shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the risks in the outside world of the present fire service management.

The CFOA policy on UWFS does not lead anyone to stop attending signals via 999 in vulnerable buildings, in general the ARC's signals are the problem.  

In most homes they know immediatley if a cleaner as set off a detector so will not call the FRS, but if a detector has gone off somewhere in a building during the night where staff are not in the vicinity to have done something to cause UWFS, the sensible and safe approach is call the FRS straight away, and then join the ( possibly only one ) other members of staff in investigating and evacuating if required. if they then find no sign of fire they can re call the FRS and turn them around or let them proceed at a reduced speed.

The first time we have a serious fire and the fire service have not attended following a 999 call, I hope they are prepared to defend there action. Remember for years fire authorities have told people to extend the cover of detection systems, and into concealed areas (also the industry tells us how sophisticated and relaible they are), and now they want to ignore them.

And don't anyone say that the FRS will treat hospitals and resi care differently, because I am seeing the standard letters being sent to care homes.
RE: Care Homes: I always ask for remote indicators where there are detectors in roof voids, top of lift shafts or any other place where it is not easily visible to staff. Of course this is only where they share other zones. Staff are always instructed to call the FRS even during the day if it is one of these devices that has activated. Any FRA in a care home should be looking at the best levels of detection and containment owing to the problems of evacuation. Where can a fire start: is it the bedside lamp, that could fall onto the bedding. is it that convector heater that is free standing and unguarded, is it the naked bulb in the store cupboard above the pads,  are the bed wheels resting on the electric cables which I often find. There are so many other considerations in which I'm sure you are all aware. Anyway, Happy Xmas to all
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Ken Taylor on December 20, 2007, 06:04:34 PM
Sounds like a lack of common sense and concern to me, Clive. I've only come across this approach with some schools and 'conventional' workplaces where there has been a number of 'false alarms' and the duty holders have failed to take appropriate action to remedy the situation.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: xan on December 21, 2007, 09:15:46 AM
Quote from: Clive
Whislt discussing Resi Care and evacuation problems and staffing levels at night, what are your opinions on the fire services not attending unless there is a confirmed fire ?

I have experience of fire brigades telling homes they will not attend because they have had 1 false alarm ( not always UWFS, and some times not even had 1) in one year unless there is a confirmed fire.  

How can you expect nursing staff to go into a roof void or where ever the signal is indicated to be, to check if there is a fire, in a building with a vulnerable, dependant , occupancy that requires all hands to the pump ( bad pun), to safely evacuate residents needing assistance, whilst also having a 2.5 minute evacuation time levelled at them, but still have staff going off to check on a fire then come back to call the fire service.

I understand the need to stop the number of UWFS, and the majority of them can be reduced by good management of the systems, but then to apply blanket rules to everyone, shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the risks in the outside world of the present fire service management.

The CFOA policy on UWFS does not lead anyone to stop attending signals via 999 in vulnerable buildings, in general the ARC's signals are the problem.  

In most homes they know immediatley if a cleaner as set off a detector so will not call the FRS, but if a detector has gone off somewhere in a building during the night where staff are not in the vicinity to have done something to cause UWFS, the sensible and safe approach is call the FRS straight away, and then join the ( possibly only one ) other members of staff in investigating and evacuating if required. if they then find no sign of fire they can re call the FRS and turn them around or let them proceed at a reduced speed.

The first time we have a serious fire and the fire service have not attended following a 999 call, I hope they are prepared to defend there action. Remember for years fire authorities have told people to extend the cover of detection systems, and into concealed areas (also the industry tells us how sophisticated and relaible they are), and now they want to ignore them.

And don't anyone say that the FRS will treat hospitals and resi care differently, because I am seeing the standard letters being sent to care homes.
some may be following the CFOA to the 'letter',but in my area 'sleeping' risks will still get a response no matter how many unwanted AFA's
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Midland Retty on January 03, 2008, 12:54:22 PM
Quote from: xan
Quote from: Clive
Whislt discussing Resi Care and evacuation problems and staffing levels at night, what are your opinions on the fire services not attending unless there is a confirmed fire ?

I have experience of fire brigades telling homes they will not attend because they have had 1 false alarm ( not always UWFS, and some times not even had 1) in one year unless there is a confirmed fire.  

How can you expect nursing staff to go into a roof void or where ever the signal is indicated to be, to check if there is a fire, in a building with a vulnerable, dependant , occupancy that requires all hands to the pump ( bad pun), to safely evacuate residents needing assistance, whilst also having a 2.5 minute evacuation time levelled at them, but still have staff going off to check on a fire then come back to call the fire service.

I understand the need to stop the number of UWFS, and the majority of them can be reduced by good management of the systems, but then to apply blanket rules to everyone, shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the risks in the outside world of the present fire service management.

The CFOA policy on UWFS does not lead anyone to stop attending signals via 999 in vulnerable buildings, in general the ARC's signals are the problem.  

In most homes they know immediatley if a cleaner as set off a detector so will not call the FRS, but if a detector has gone off somewhere in a building during the night where staff are not in the vicinity to have done something to cause UWFS, the sensible and safe approach is call the FRS straight away, and then join the ( possibly only one ) other members of staff in investigating and evacuating if required. if they then find no sign of fire they can re call the FRS and turn them around or let them proceed at a reduced speed.

The first time we have a serious fire and the fire service have not attended following a 999 call, I hope they are prepared to defend there action. Remember for years fire authorities have told people to extend the cover of detection systems, and into concealed areas (also the industry tells us how sophisticated and relaible they are), and now they want to ignore them.

And don't anyone say that the FRS will treat hospitals and resi care differently, because I am seeing the standard letters being sent to care homes.
some may be following the CFOA to the 'letter',but in my area 'sleeping' risks will still get a response no matter how many unwanted AFA's
Yes this is the case in my Brigade asrea too - vulnerable buildings (res care /sheltered /housing /other accomodation) we always tell people to call us out

Back onto the subject of Res care.

Many of you  have pointed out you often only get two members of staff available to deal with emergencies at night.

This is a scary thought. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit) we as a fire authority can not comment upon or enforce staff numbers directly but we can approach the issue by challenging whether or not the fire procedure of a particular home will work effectively.

At the end of the day the RRO is now about the punters out there taking ownership of fire safety, its about getting them to think about how they manage their businesses and their risks. Its about trying to allow greater flexibility in working practices, and fire safety provisions.

If a punter tells me s/he can evacuate their home with two staff on at night then who am I to argue if it is correctly demonstrated in a risk assessment. They just need to be aware that if all goes wrong it will be they explaining themselves in court.

Last point I'd like to make is the issue of fire service response times.

You should always assume the fire brigade may not attend for atleast 15 minutes. The chances of non attendance until this time are practically nil but occassionally during spate conditions, or major traffic problems this can occur.

Remember that crews from the nearest fire station may be attending another incident and it could be another crew from a considerable distance away which is tasked to respond.

So eitherway the fire procedure should not rely or assume that assistance from external agencies will be available.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: val on January 03, 2008, 08:56:13 PM
If a punter tells me s/he can evacuate their home with two staff on at night then who am I to argue if it is correctly demonstrated in a risk assessment. They just need to be aware that if all goes wrong it will be they explaining themselves in court.

Midland,

I'm sure that this was just a slip but Fire and Rescue Authorities have a duty to enforce the Order and if you think that the risk assessment is unsuitable or insufficient, then it must be challenged, usually, after the intial pleasantries, by means of an enforcement notice which states where and why it is not suitable or sufficient. It is then up to the responsible person to appeal to a Court and prove that it was.
I do not believe that we should turn away from these tricky cases and I know that senior manager support is often lacking but just because residential homes have always operated on minimal staffing at night doesn't necessarily make it right.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on January 03, 2008, 10:39:51 PM
Val
You are of course right but there is also a balance to be drawn.

Minimum staffing levels are set by National Guidance originating from HM Government and enforced by CSCI. On the basis of this guidance Local Government Social Services set the fees that they are prepared to pay for socially funded places in a care home which is always below the commercially viable rate. The self funding residents subsidise the socially funded places. I know- I am paying for my relative.

Then along comes another Government Department ( Fire Authorities and DCLG) that remove all legal obligations on themselves to provide a minimal defined standard of service in terms of fire service attendance times and goes on to commission a fairy tale guidance document that sets a 2.5 minute target for the evacuation of vulnerable, medicated, infirm, confused andsometimes unpredictable people from their beds to a place of safety. Quite frankly the only way this could ever be achieved is by a 2:1 staffing ratio. Will the Government sanction sufficient increases in fees for social funding to enable staffing levels to be increased? No Chance.

The final sting in the tail is that they then down skill the fire safety enforcement departments so that the inexperienced code huggers will eventually predominate who think that if it says it in the guidance it must be right.

It all adds up to immovable objects and irresistible forces in stalemate. Nothing is likley to be changed, on a National Scale nothing is likely to be improved except that the few establishments that do fall foul and have an incident will be
hung out to dry.

Not that I'm cynical of course.....
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Ken Taylor on January 04, 2008, 12:17:55 AM
- and it's not that easy to get staff to work nights either - particularly if it's nursing care that's needed.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Midland Retty on January 04, 2008, 11:06:44 AM
Quote from: val
If a punter tells me s/he can evacuate their home with two staff on at night then who am I to argue if it is correctly demonstrated in a risk assessment. They just need to be aware that if all goes wrong it will be they explaining themselves in court.

Midland,

I'm sure that this was just a slip but Fire and Rescue Authorities have a duty to enforce the Order and if you think that the risk assessment is unsuitable or insufficient, then it must be challenged, usually, after the intial pleasantries, by means of an enforcement notice which states where and why it is not suitable or sufficient. It is then up to the responsible person to appeal to a Court and prove that it was.
I do not believe that we should turn away from these tricky cases and I know that senior manager support is often lacking but just because residential homes have always operated on minimal staffing at night doesn't necessarily make it right.
I think you have misunderstood what I have put.

I don't in anyway shape or form think anyone is turning away from "tricky cases" But you must understand we would be on a very sticky wicket trying to make comment or take action on staffing levels. We have no juridiction over such matters. CSCI deal with staffing levels.

Yes we enforce but the duty under the RR(FS)O 2005 is all about self compliance.

As an enforcer if a responsible person produces as decent risk assessment that looks at the staffing levels at a home and is able to put across a convincing argument that the management systems in place are able to cope then even if my gut feeling tells me the procedures may fall down I would have a very hard time trying to convince a magistrate's of my concerns purely based on a " gut feeling" - any defence solicitor would have a field day.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: wee brian on January 04, 2008, 12:51:38 PM
It seams daft to me that we need lots of staff in every care home just to deal with the occasional fire.

Perhaps a more logical approach would be to have a local service that has specialist equipment and training to help evacuate/rescue people. We could give them big red lorries and blue flashing lights.

thoughts?
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Midland Retty on January 04, 2008, 12:57:41 PM
Quote from: wee brian
It seams daft to me that we need lots of staff in every care home just to deal with the occasional fire.

Perhaps a more logical approach would be to have a local service that has specialist equipment and training to help evacuate/rescue people. We could give them big red lorries and blue flashing lights.

thoughts?
Bloomin' heck thats brilliant Wee Brian....what would we call this local service you speak of?
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: BHCC on January 04, 2008, 01:09:30 PM
What a great idea!!!

Maybe they could do the FRAs as well?
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: nearlythere on January 04, 2008, 01:18:37 PM
Just to go off on a tangent a little it should be remembered that a Fire & Rescue Service has a duty to offer a fire and rescue service to the community and not to an individual.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on January 04, 2008, 01:44:55 PM
Wish the community had to pay the council tax and business rates and not the individual.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: wee brian on January 04, 2008, 03:12:37 PM
So when my house is on fire, am I an individual or the community?
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Paul2886 on January 04, 2008, 03:12:51 PM
Quote from: Midland Retty
Quote from: wee brian
It seams daft to me that we need lots of staff in every care home just to deal with the occasional fire.

Perhaps a more logical approach would be to have a local service that has specialist equipment and training to help evacuate/rescue people. We could give them big red lorries and blue flashing lights.

thoughts?
Bloomin' heck thats brilliant Wee Brian....what would we call this local service you speak of?
Until the Fire Authorities tell the homes that it is the their responsibilty to ensure the safety of the residents which includes evacuation. The option for the staff to totally rely of attending crews to start moving elderly infirmed residents is just not acceptable. Its a massive problem I know but I'm constantly told that there has to be a fire management plan in place to cater for evacuation of those unaffected by the fire. Its worth bearing in mind that fire crews cannot open up the area of the fire if there are residents in adjacent rooms owing the the release of the products onto the escape routes. In homes where hoists and other complicated bits of apparatus are used this is best done by those trained to use them. Of course it means, and hinges on early detection, staff training, fire contaiment and an adequate FRA
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: nearlythere on January 04, 2008, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: wee brian
So when my house is on fire, am I an individual or the community?
An individual.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: wee brian on January 04, 2008, 04:19:17 PM
I want a rates rebate
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on January 04, 2008, 04:21:51 PM
Agree with you Paulm - but theres a balance to be drawn. Its not realistic for the fire brigade to expect 40 plus residents to be fully evacuated from the care home within 2.5 minutes. It is realistic for the fire brigade to expect for all occupants of the fire zone to be moved to a place of relative safety in an adjoining compartment- probably by the time they arrive. In a real fire situation forget the hoists. It takes far too long.

In my opinion the  homes evacuation plan should provide for stage 1 and stage 2 evacuation and it is absolutely reasonable to expect that the fire service will arrive at some stage and take over. Its not reasonable for the fire service to take the stance that you cant rely on them turning up. They damn well better had do otherwise they aint fit for purpose. I usually build them into the care home evacuation plan at about the 15 minute mark.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Paul2886 on January 04, 2008, 04:56:30 PM
Quote from: kurnal
Agree with you Paulm - but theres a balance to be drawn. Its not realistic for the fire brigade to expect 40 plus residents to be fully evacuated from the care home within 2.5 minutes. It is realistic for the fire brigade to expect for all occupants of the fire zone to be moved to a place of relative safety in an adjoining compartment- probably by the time they arrive. In a real fire situation forget the hoists. It takes far too long.

In my opinion the  homes evacuation plan should provide for stage 1 and stage 2 evacuation and it is absolutely reasonable to expect that the fire service will arrive at some stage and take over. Its not reasonable for the fire service to take the stance that you cant rely on them turning up. They damn well better had do otherwise they aint fit for purpose. I usually build them into the care home evacuation plan at about the 15 minute mark.
And I agree with you Kurnal. But I get frustrated with attending fire crews either telling the staff to shut all the residents behind a fire door and get out, or that they should start getting all the residents outside immediately the alarm sounds.  Then along comes me and explains the principles behind phased evecuation to be told that they have been told different. A lot of crews fail to understand the logistics of evacuation in care homes or the concept of phased evacuation. I know that this was never properly explained to me when I was on the lorries. Wouldn't it be healthy if we set up a  seminar to discuss all these concerns. Lets get CSCI there, home managers, fire station managers, and any other interested parties.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: nearlythere on January 04, 2008, 04:58:22 PM
Quote from: kurnal
Agree with you Paulm - but theres a balance to be drawn. Its not realistic for the fire brigade to expect 40 plus residents to be fully evacuated from the care home within 2.5 minutes. It is realistic for the fire brigade to expect for all occupants of the fire zone to be moved to a place of relative safety in an adjoining compartment- probably by the time they arrive. In a real fire situation forget the hoists. It takes far too long.

In my opinion the  homes evacuation plan should provide for stage 1 and stage 2 evacuation and it is absolutely reasonable to expect that the fire service will arrive at some stage and take over. Its not reasonable for the fire service to take the stance that you cant rely on them turning up. They damn well better had do otherwise they aint fit for purpose. I usually build them into the care home evacuation plan at about the 15 minute mark.
Of course the Fire & Rescue Services will always turn up on time, at least 75% of the time, as required by the Government.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on January 04, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
I thought the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 and the IRMPs had done away with all of that, nearlythere? Cant seem to pin them down any more?
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: Ken Taylor on January 04, 2008, 06:14:22 PM
How about a clear leter from 'the FRS or HMG' to every registered care establishment spelling it out to them? I'm not convinced that they are all reading the 'guidance' and appreciating their duty in this respect.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: nearlythere on January 04, 2008, 07:20:19 PM
Quote from: kurnal
I thought the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 and the IRMPs had done away with all of that, nearlythere? Cant seem to pin them down any more?
Kernal
Look up the web site of your F&R Sevice. Locate their Integrated Risk Management Plan which should have been posted for consulation, not necessarily recently, and on it you should find standards of fire cover including times of attendance for particular fire risk catagories.
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: kurnal on January 04, 2008, 08:34:53 PM
Theres a challenge nearlythere- thanks for the tip.

Tried Derbyshire and West Mids web sites- couldnt find any reference to attendance times or targets.
Notts still refer to the "current Home office Standards of fire cover" just a little behind the times I believe, but full marks to South Yorks who publish up to date attendance targets based on their assessment of risk.

Can you find the details for your brigade?
Title: Aids to assist evacuation of a care home
Post by: nearlythere on January 05, 2008, 06:16:43 PM
Quote from: kurnal
Theres a challenge nearlythere- thanks for the tip.

Tried Derbyshire and West Mids web sites- couldnt find any reference to attendance times or targets.
Notts still refer to the "current Home office Standards of fire cover" just a little behind the times I believe, but full marks to South Yorks who publish up to date attendance targets based on their assessment of risk.

Can you find the details for your brigade?
Punch in "Fire & Rescue Emergency Response Standards" and you should get a wealth of info.