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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: kurnal on January 16, 2008, 12:08:58 PM
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Recently done a risk assessment for a caravan site. The client uses a BAFE / ISO9001 accredited company for extinguisher and fire alarm maintenance. Two weeks before my visit they attended site and serviced the 6 extinguishers in three boxes and the battery alarms. Two extinguishers were discharged and recommissioned and the client charged for 6 new alkaline pp3 type batteries in the alarm boxes.
On looking I am absolutely certain that no work was done other than to scribble on the extinguishers and the log book. The client says they were only on site 10 minutes. I took some digital photos of the thick cobwebs around the extinguisher nozzles and inside the extinguisher cabinets and in the alarm boxes that were just caked in thick cobwebs- several years worth I reckon.
I drafted a letter for my client to send to the company enclosing digital photos and asking for their comments. They simply responded that the work charged for was correctly carried out.
My client doesnt want to take it any further and is paying their £270 bill. Nice work if you can get it. I have obtained some alternative quotes for them which have come in at about quarter of the price charged by the previous company. I have advised the client to get the work done again by another firm.
As the fire risk assessor am I in a position to do anything further- and should I anyway?
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Not an awful lot you can do Kurnal if the site owner does not want to take it further. All you can do is advise him/her that you believe that the service he paid for does not appear to have been carried out. You could contact BAFE and seek their views. If the extinguisher company is accredited to it they may wish to carry out an audit of their service.
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you could report them to trading standards, this could be done even if the Company does not want to take action.
if you have photographic evidence, trading standards would probably be quite interested.
i do know the hold all complaints on file so they can build up a picture of how a company is trading. they may not act on your complaint initially but it will contribute to a case if there are further complaints.
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We would charge about £24.00 to carry out basic service on 6 extinguishers (inc service parts such as tamper seals).
2 discharge tests on cartridge operated water extinguishers would cost about £18.00 each inc a new set of seals and a new (not refurbished) cartridge.
New duracell alkaline batteries fitted to cabinet alarms - £3.25 each
Total about £80.00 plus VAT so yes I think I can smell ripoff.
We are ISO 9001 accredited, but have baulked at becoming BAFE registered due to the costs involved and the seeming lack of getting anything back for your dosh!
Three other local companies are dropping out of BAFE for the same reason (expensive ST104 engineer licensing).
Discuss...........
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As John says I too think this is a rip off, however, the point I want to make is that BAFE and ISO approval does not mean customers are getting a better job done and will not get ripped off !!!!
I have carried out numerous inspections of buildings where the users have clearly been misled and ripped off by BAFE approved companies the bottom line is generally commission £££ for engineers and targets, not safety and compliance with current legislation !!!
I would be interested in peoples experiences and thoughts on BAFE etc
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Got an email addy?
Don't want to get into trouble on a public forum.
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Try BAFE and also trading standards who over the years have prosecuted shine & sign merchants. It's unusual (not never) to find a BAFE company missing out certain checks because of the risk of auditing - I normally ind instead they overprice, condemn unnecessarily & over provide instead with non registered non trade body members usually not doing a proper job (there are many that do as well I hasten to add).
First way of detecting shine & sign is gauge dots - lack of gauge verification is the first sign all is not well & it goes downhill from there. A common dodge is not doing an extended service, but marking it on the label & charging, because it's too much effort & time to take the extinguisher out & discharge it, strip it, inspect it & recharge, plus a number of firms don't carry recharge kit.
Cartridge types are often not internally examined, or if they are the cartridge isn't weighed - a dangerous mistake as I do find sealed cartridges that have lost content reasonably often.
Other tricks are cutting corners by not having or using new frangible 'OK' pins in Chubb, Kidde FPS & Ceo Deux headed extinguishers & by putting pull tag seals in them each year instead of changing the whole pin - put a pull seal on an OK pin & seal and the extinguisher then fails to comply with EN3 as the two elements together require too much force to break (true in practice, have done a test on this)- Chubb & Gloria have circulated notes on this, but few firms bother to take any notice.
I could fill pages with tricks of the trade like this, but won't bore you!
When I find this I put it in the FRA (as the equipment isn't competently checked and could thus fail to operate or be in a dangerous condition) & advise termination.
For those who don't hold engineers quals I have a copiously illustrated powerpoint on the key elements of the different types of service etc that I use to train our consultants - not a course to allow you to service but still a good insight, I can forward on request (largish file)
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BAFE are persuading increasing numbers of Local Authorities & insurers to require people to only use accredited companies and are planning to get the revision of BS 5306-3 to unify and nationalise tech training & accreditation (I wonder by whom), so any firm wanting to hit the big time needs BAFE as some of the bigger clients require it. There is enough business that doesn't care however to enable you to do well without shelling out ££££ to BAFE each year though.
I don't go as far as saying 'only use BAFE firms' as that doesn't guarantee the best & doesn't mean others are no good - experience has shown me that advising medium size regional firms who are BAFE or otherwise FETA (FIA), IFEDA or BFC members gives the biggest chance of a fair job
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Anthony's point about recording improper maintenance in the FRA is excellent, and perhaps exposes the responsible person in a failure to appoint competent people to assist in discharging fire safety duties. Once the client is hearing this sort of good news perhaps they may be more willing to take the company to task
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Anthony's point about recording improper maintenance in the FRA is excellent, and perhaps exposes the responsible person in a failure to appoint competent people to assist in discharging fire safety duties. Once the client is hearing this sort of good news perhaps they may be more willing to take the company to task
You would need to be absolutely absolutely absolutely certain that a full and proper service as per the BS was not carried out. You could leave yourself open to be sued for libel and/or slander by the company. The presence of cobwebs may not neccessarily mean a proper service not being carried out. Does the service include cleaning the equipment?
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First way of detecting shine & sign is gauge dots - lack of gauge verification is the first sign all is not well & it goes downhill from there.
Maybe a silly question to you but what are gauge dots never heard the term?
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Nearlythere, the original thread starter from Kurnal said he was absolutely certain no work had been done. So he only needs one more absolutely absolute to take the company to task?
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Nearlythere, the original thread starter from Kurnal said he was absolutely certain no work had been done. So he only needs one more absolutely absolute to take the company to task?
Well, as long as he is absolutely sure that he is absolutely certain.
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Absolutely old chap
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Gauge dots cover the hole in the centre of the pressure gauge (to stop moisture etc from getting in), they usually (but do not have to) have the year printed on them (Chubb's don't), so you can tell at a glance if the extinguisher has at least had a gauge test carried out.
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Re the Gauge Dots: As an experienced service engineer, I find the number of the original transparent dots installed by the manufacturer are often still left on the gauge under the dated stamped dot. So although the correctly dated dot may be in situ, the gauge hasn't actually been tested. Another very common shortfall not easily checked but one (of many) which I have no doubt you all have come across following service by "audited" and registered firms.
My personal practice is not to fit these dots as more often than not they obscure the gauge pressure needle (except in damp environments) - obviously not the clear ones, I don't recall these being part of BS either so my concience is clear, best practice et al.
My advise to clients is talk to your compatriots in your own trade and take their advice before employing fire service firms and don't employ commission based engineers. (Although unfortunately my current position is comm. & basic - athough this is going to be rectified with any luck, safety is my priority regardless of targets.)
As for poor service from an accreditied company - threaten publicity and see what their reaction is.
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Hi Pseudonym
Welcome to the forum. Is that your real name?:)
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Hi Pseudonym
Welcome to the forum. Is that your real name?:)
'Fraid so, bloody odd sense of humour up here in't North ;-)
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Hi Sue (Can I call you that?)
Half my extinguishers don't have gauges, is there any other way of checking?
We also seem to be replacing a lot of our water extinguishers for AFFF, its a new contractor
fellow Northerner and ex eggchaser ( I got married!)
(NO offence intended, apologies)
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If they don't have gauges, then are cartridge type (or CO2). To check if these are properly checked you need to see them being serviced - the extinguisher should be stripped down, cartridge weighed, mechanisms checked & interior examined.
If you can't manage this look for - old stagnant water (rotten eggs smell) and cartridges with a date of manufacture or refill over 5 years old - these show no internal examination.
With CO2's you have to trust them although you can check weigh yourself and check the stamped date to see if it required a hydro test/overhaul.
Unless your water's are unsafe through dents or internal corrosion they shouldn't be replaced with anything & can continue in service, even a 5 year extended service is a fraction of the cost of new kit. A lot of contractors put in 6 litre AFFF for waters on the basis of a smaller, lighter extinguisher with 35kV protection, but to be honest unless you have a class B risk I would rather use water additive as you can use a 3 litre extinguisher (even lighter & still with 35kV protection)
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If they don't have gauges, then are cartridge type (or CO2). To check if these are properly checked you need to see them being serviced - the extinguisher should be stripped down, cartridge weighed, mechanisms checked & interior examined.
If you can't manage this look for - old stagnant water (rotten eggs smell) and cartridges with a date of manufacture or refill over 5 years old - these show no internal examination.
With CO2's you have to trust them although you can check weigh yourself and check the stamped date to see if it required a hydro test/overhaul.
Unless your water's are unsafe through dents or internal corrosion they shouldn't be replaced with anything & can continue in service, even a 5 year extended service is a fraction of the cost of new kit. A lot of contractors put in 6 litre AFFF for waters on the basis of a smaller, lighter extinguisher with 35kV protection, but to be honest unless you have a class B risk I would rather use water additive as you can use a 3 litre extinguisher (even lighter & still with 35kV protection)
An issue that is going to get larger in the near future is the disposal of AFFF.
As regards price, there are now very few british made extinguishers, most manufacturers have moved production elsewhere (Guess where?), and prices have tumbled in the last 12 months or so.
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True, we don't test discharge on site & do a service exchange to avoid upsetting the Environment Agency.
90% of extinguishers are from China or Malaysia (including all Chubb/TG kit and some stuff from the uber-expensive European Fire Group of Nu Swift et al)
Only Amerex, Gloria, Total & FPS are US/German/British made throughout and UK Fire's expensive Britannia Range is (by a strange coincidence we do safety checks for the landlord of the industrial estate that has a foundry on it that makes their headcaps)
The price has dropped so much it is the same price for us to exchange an empty/due 5 year test Powder extinguisher for a brand new one instead of messing around filling it! Not very Eco-Friendly!
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I can't remember the last time we sold an Amerex extinguisher - they've priced themselves out of the market now.
We don't sell it, but where is the "lovely" Moyne Roberts kit made? still Ireland?
Still some of the Chinese stuff makes MR look good!
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I can't remember the last time we sold an Amerex extinguisher - they've priced themselves out of the market now.
We don't sell it, but where is the "lovely" Moyne Roberts kit made? still Ireland?
Still some of the Chinese stuff makes MR look good!
The MR kit is assembled in Red Scar Ind Est, Preston (Hose Reel bodies's physically pressed not manufactured, over the water, with the powders bodies also filled in the same factory, however MR do not manufacture kit, only assemble. Then claim it to be British made. The bodies are shipped in from the Far East, in containers which have been sat on the ships deck and travelled around half the world. On the ships deck. Literally. Then filled with fire protectiion medium and sold to unsuspecting customers who trust the BS system. As for their pressure gauges..........no comment.
Personally I think all other kit looks and performs better then MR's! I'm sure we all have a nightmare story or two regarding this kit!
I agree with you regarding the Amerex kit; too costly. Excellent kit but just to many cheaper alternatives available when customer purchase price is paramount which is unfortunately, as we all know , the most important factor these days.
er.. Personal Views Only!
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Hi Sue (Can I call you that?)
Half my extinguishers don't have gauges, is there any other way of checking?
We also seem to be replacing a lot of our water extinguishers for AFFF, its a new contractor
fellow Northerner and ex eggchaser ( I got married!)
(NO offence intended, apologies)
Hi Davo,
As an end user I wouldn't advise you try to check the pressure of the extinguishers ( - is that what you refered too? - see the following posts from your original post) if you are refering to a service provider, talk to fellow maintenance personell from other sites. They should be able to advise you on a decent company. The guys on this site are intelligent and honest, so if there are any in your area...
(I will be honest and not advice the Co. I work for, as we are basic & comm based - not ideal "but beggers can't be choosers" etc)
AFFF are becoming more common as a multiple use unit (Class A & B) and as a spray unit they are safe for use within the vicinity of an electrical contact. They are commonly smaller too (9Lt Water 14Kg (13A) as apposed to 6Lt AFFF (10Kg) 13A therefore lighter too) when compared with the "old" 9Lt Water. It's down to many factors but adequate fire risk cover must always be the paramount issue above all else. (Coupled with adequate training) So your supplier must inform you of any changes to types or sizes and give their reasons why too.
If you have no confidence or communication from them, get rid and employ someone you trust.
Oh, no not Sue, my missus would only get confused! Phil will do!
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Heading back to the original question......... If they are BAFE and ISO then they must have a proper auditable complaints procedure. I would ask for the complaint to be recorded and investigated by the firm and for a copy of their findings..... Then go to the NSI with the evidence if you aren't satisfied.
The problem with ISO accreditation under the BAFE scheme (and we have just had the consultant in putting our forms together...) is that the scheme isn't any where near as "demanding" as you might think, and there is lots of room to take shortcuts and hide things from the auditers....