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THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: Midland Retty on January 23, 2008, 10:58:31 AM

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: Midland Retty on January 23, 2008, 10:58:31 AM

Hi

I was recently asked a question about fire safety prosecutions and in particular cases involving "bodies corporate" (that is to say an organisation such as a limited company where the limited company is seen collectively to be the "responsible person").

Would I be correct in saying that if someone was killed in a fire at a factory for instance and it was proven that catastrophic fire safety management failings were to blame no member of a "body corporate" could be imprisoned for the offences brought before the courts ?

Whereas if Joe Bloggs opens a factory, calls himself Managing Director, and isnt a limited company and the same thing happened, would he be imprisoned as an individual?

How does the system work in these scenarios?

Thanks for your help

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: kurnal on January 23, 2008, 11:57:08 AM

See Section 37 of the Health and safety at Work Act.
Where an offence is committed by a body corporate or can be attributable to any neglect of a director or other senior officer of the body, both that body and the person are liable to prosecution.

Thats clear enough - it doesn't happen often enough though and thats one reason why the Corporate manslauhter legislation is being reviewed at present.
However article 47 of the Fire Safety Order dissapples the H&S at Work Act in respect of basic fire precautions - so we go a full circle- I bet PhilB knows the answer to that one!!!!

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: wee brian on January 23, 2008, 12:12:32 PM

Theres loads of stuff in the order that means you can nick anybody not jusrt the RP (who may not actually be a "person")

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: PhilB on January 23, 2008, 12:35:10 PM

Kurnal take a look at article 32(8) of the Fire Safety Order. ...

32(8) Where an offence under this Order committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or any person purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate is guilty of that offence, and is liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.


..... and Retty I think article 32(10) answers your question.

 32(10) Where the commission by any person of an offence under this Order, is due to the act or default of some other person, that other person is guilty of the offence, and a person may be charged with and convicted of the offence by virtue of this paragraph whether or not proceedings are taken against the first-mentioned person.

Can I take my anorak off now?

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: Midland Retty on January 23, 2008, 01:52:01 PM

Thanks for that folks

I think in plain english then the answer is yes a com pany director of a limited company trying to hide behind "body corporate" status can still be sent to prison.

!!

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: wee brian on January 23, 2008, 01:54:57 PM

yes

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: Steven N on January 23, 2008, 02:00:43 PM

Quote from: PhilB

Can I take my anorak off now?

its very nice anorak though Phil

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: kurnal on January 23, 2008, 05:59:36 PM

Thanks Phil I knew we could rely on you. Sorry to admit I was more aware of the HASAWA clauses than the Fire Safety Order. Your anorak must be a couple of sizes bigger than mine

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: Chris Houston on January 23, 2008, 07:43:09 PM

Quote from: PhilB

.......or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary....

This does seem a bit harsh on the secretaries, take for example where I work, they tend to just sit about painting their nails or occassionally typing and have no control at all over fire safety issues.

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: PhilB on January 23, 2008, 10:07:35 PM

Please tell me you're joking Chris.........this refers to the company secretary.....not the receptionist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: Midland Retty on January 24, 2008, 11:34:07 AM

Quote from: PhilB

Please tell me you're joking Chris.........this refers to the company secretary.....not the receptionist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ohhhh the COMPANY secretary - not poor old Mavis who works at the front desk

Its a good job you told me I was just about to have her sacked for not completing a suitable and sufficient risk assessment, and for general non compliance with article 17 !

Title: Bodies Corporate
Post by: wee brian on January 25, 2008, 09:35:09 AM

I blame the Secretary of State for all this confusion.