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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: AllyMacG on January 27, 2008, 11:12:03 PM
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Thought this might be a good talking pont thought it might make your blood boil, mines certainly did.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/25/nfire125.xml
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Yes is does, all FRS preaches Equality, Fairness and not to discreminate which is truly justified but this in recruitment is a complete nonsense and unfair to white males. This kind of focus really does show where we are really at in our modern fire and rescue sevice. All the possitive work done on Equality and Fairness is totaly undone in one campain. I suspect this kind of recruitment is supported by the department of local communities and govenment.
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If the event was organised and set up as described in the newspaper - then I would join you in absolute condemnation. But was it really like that?? I dont know.
Certainly the organisers have been very naive and done the equal opportunities cause serious damage and a huge disservice in running an event in this way. But I bet the newspaper has not let the truth stand in the way of a good story and dont care how much damage they cause if it will sell a few papers.
What can the employers do? Theres absolutely no doubt that the british fire service does not reflect the make up of society as a whole. It would seem to me to be a reasonable expectation that around half of all firefighters should be female and that the ethnic mix of the service should reflect its local community.
If that were the case it would be absolutely clear and transparent that the service does treat all applications fairlyand all persons equally. Currently the make up is over 90% white male. Yes there are historic reasons for this but unless brigades try do something to deal with it under represented groups will assume that they are probably not welcome to apply.
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This concept is nothing new - quite a few brigades do this type of thing aleady.
The idea is that the Brigade holds open days specifically trageted to attract people from under represented groups. They are invited to apply, but just like everyone else have to pass the same entry criteria.
However ive not known an occassion where the brigade concerned has stated "no white males allowed". Ive know brigades go to attend Islamic or Sikh religious festivals for example with a promotional stand as it were, but general open days are always open to anyone.
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Years ago when I was in the local fire service I had a stint in the Ethnic department, now called I believe the Equal opportunitis Section, my role included going to school employment days in predominatley ethnic minority areas, however the amount of interest we recieved was minimal. pupils would come up and talk to us but were not that bothered about joining the Fire Service, the typical answer was that they would rather have a better paid job with less risk or that their parents would not allow them to join the Fire service seeing it as low profile job.
I think the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink springs to mind
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This concept is nothing new - quite a few brigades do this type of thing aleady.
The idea is that the Brigade holds open days specifically trageted to attract people from under represented groups. They are invited to apply, but just like everyone else have to pass the same entry criteria.
However ive not known an occassion where the brigade concerned has stated "no white males allowed". Ive know brigades go to attend Islamic or Sikh religious festivals for example with a promotional stand as it were, but general open days are always open to anyone.
Twenty years ago I applied to join a large Metropolitan brigade. Even then they offered assistance with the application process to under represented ethnic groups. As a white male I wasn’t offered it.
I read this in the Telegraph yesterday drawn by the over sensational headline - What the article says is that Avon Fire Service have had a number of targeted recruitment drives directly aimed at under represented groups. Whether they are black, asian gay or woman. What does it matter?
I have been involved with recruitment campaigns to highlight the fire service as a career to woman, my brief was to encourage woman to consider it as a career. Nothing more, nothing less.
Incidentally, my brigade encourages anyone and everyone at the application stage to visit a fire station to find out more about the job.
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Yes encourage is the word, its designed to dispell some of the myths misconceptions and concerns the under represented group might have about joining the brigade.
Like I say thats happened for years, but its always been done in a way where the Fire Service concerned branches out to the events organised by the Under represented groups in question - yes general opebn days were supposed to be for all as well, but to exclude white males specifically - ive not heard of that before!.
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We held 'have a go days' in our Brigade some seven years ago. I was working as a press officer at the time and the issue of males being 'banned' came up. I think very sensibly our head of media did not ban anyone from attending, although the days were very much promoted as being aimed at women and people from ethnic minorities. Sexual orientation was not an issue that was directly adressed in the scheme at the time.
I think that was the most sensible approach to the issue. We haven't run them for some years now as far as I know. Avon are clearly very sensitive on this issue following the 'searchlight' incident. It seems to me that a very silly act by one crew which should have been dealt with via low key disciplinary action has been turned into a major civil rights event. Far from being a terrible homophobic atrocity the whole thing seems to point up significant change in how people view their own sexuality. Who would of thought twenty years ago that a group of people involved in a public act of gross indecency (according to the law) would see fit to complain indignantly that they had been disturbed during said act.
It seems to me far more significant that they felt empowered enough to complain, rather than that a group of blokes did something a bit stupid; because blokes always will and always will need to be b***cked for it.
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http://www.avonfire.gov.uk/Avon/News/Have-a-go+days.htm
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Pupils would come up and talk to us but were not that bothered about joining the Fire Service, the typical answer was that they would rather have a better paid job with less risk or that their parents would not allow them to join the Fire service seeing it as low profile job.
I think the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink springs to mind
Here here, for one instance many a time when we've been out on shouts in some of our 'highly populated ethnic areas' we chat to the children and teenagers and ask them do you fancy joining the fire service and the replies we get are....... no it doesn't pay enough or it's to dangerous or even no because you have to work nights!
There is a reason these people don't join and that is because they don't want to. You can't force them........well they haven't found a way yet but watch this space!!
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The correct term for these days is Positive action days. They are not discriminatory at all and they are purely for information to assist individuals make a more reasoned decision over whether to join or not. It rasies awareness and encourages under represented groups to consider a career in the Fire and Rescue Service.
Having read the article, it appears that the press (god love 'em) may have mis-interpreted what the whole event was about, which has the knock on of distorting public perception.
If the fire authority was handing out appications packs at this event, then it would be positive discrimination.
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As one who was there & who gets real jarred off by lots of pc b&*%%ks it aint like it says in the paper, surprise surprise. On a wider note it does frighten me when a story is written in the press that you know through personal expierience is wrong what about all the other things in our honest & truthful press!I think of our strike for one
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As one who was there & who gets real jarred off by lots of pc b&*%%ks it aint like it says in the paper, surprise surprise. On a wider note it does frighten me when a story is written in the press that you know through personal expierience is wrong what about all the other things in our honest & truthful press!I think of our strike for one
You have hit the nail on the head Stevo.
Controversy sells newspapers....need we say more.
The problem is that it undermines the work of upper management and the public's perception of the fire service but clearly theres nothing we can do about misreporting - the newspapers are too powerful to be tackled!
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With regards to this subject, last month at Aston University recreation centre between Birmingham and Walsall, West midlands, there was an Asian football tournament and in total 12,000 played or attended over the two days, a wonderful opportunity for a recruitment drive for the Fire Service and Police, two small stands, I was there both days (drinking) I didnt see any representation from either organisations. If they were there I apologise, if they were not, the question must be why not?
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With regards to this subject, last month at Aston University recreation centre between Birmingham and Walsall, West midlands, there was an Asian football tournament and in total 12,000 played or attended over the two days, a wonderful opportunity for a recruitment drive for the Fire Service and Police, two small stands, I was there both days (drinking) I didnt see any representation from either organisations. If they were there I apologise, if they were not, the question must be why not?
That is a good point. As the angry young man that raised this subject, I feel that I should contribute. I do feel that when it comes to recruitment, as a white British male aged 18-30 I am the lowest in the pecking order, however as I have been trying for a good few years to get in I would say that any time I have been going through the recruitment process e.g. going for tests etc I have not felt discriminated against. My main point was, by all means encourage BME's and females to apply as much as anyone else, but make that as equal as someone that is white, black, Asian, female, heterosexual, homosexual, etc, etc. This opinion may come down to the fact that I am young and perhaps naive and fail to see where race, sex and sexual orientation comes into it!
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Ron, while I agree with you about the wasted opportunity, I must ask - how do those who run these minority inspired events feel about such corporate recruitment invasions?
Many years ago, I saw a mock submarine on a truck in the Notting Hill Carnival parade - recruiting for the Royal Navy. It looked totally out of place in a Carribean carnival - surrounded by truck mounted million(?)-watt sound systems and steel bands!!. Now everyone's at it and the procession is full of public authority type floats keen to fly the BME flag.
London Fire Brigade have had a NH Carnival float for a few years now and whilst I do not doubt it is good PR and a useful recruitment tool, does watering down such an event cause any resentment in those minority groups.
Several other events, such as The gay pride march in London has also been 'hijacked' by the Met Police, LFB and others as a PR excuse.
I wonder whether it does more harm than good as, if I attended or organised a minority led event, I would perhaps be somewhat resentful of such obvious corporate intervention 'watering down' the aims & message of the event.
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Its a difficult one but it must be better to get more applicants from different backgrounds but still select the most suitable applicants. he alternative is positive discrimination which is a bad idea all around.
The Navy, Army, Fire & Police services etc are there for everybody so why not have a float at a caribean carnival.
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AllyMacG .... I think you really do miss the point of what Positive Action is all about. Yes, you may feel angry and the lowest on the pecking order, but you have to look at the situation with a different tack.
A fire & rescue service decides to recruit, so places an advert in the local press. Guranteed, most applicants will be white males. There is no need to approach these and ask if they would consider a career, it's a forgone conclusion confirmed by the number of applications.
What about under represented groups? (And not just ethnic, female etc etc .... you have to consider all groups that are under represented)
How do you provide information to them and perhaps encourage them to consider a career?
How do you break down the barriers and misconception that only white males can apply?
Positive action days are not discriminatory, they are there to provide information to those who are under represented and assist them to make a more reasoned judgement of whether it is a job they could do. they can talk to serving personnel and obtain information regarding the application process, life on station, see demonstrations of equipment, have a go at some of the tests etc.
They still have to apply like everyone else, and if application packs are handed out, then it becomes discriminitory.
Hope that makes sense!!
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I agree, almost entirley, with Messy, WeeBrian and Baldyman - with the solitary disagreement being on the handing out of application packs. That is not discriminatory, unless these are ONLY available at positive action days.
Actually Avon's days were open to white males, though only one of them and there were also numerous times advertised that you could go along to a fire station to get a pack and advice.
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anyone been watching the news, apparently the people upstairs in westminster are proposing to make positive discrimination LEGAL.
this is apparently so that employers can acheive a better demographic of employees.
They are suggesting that if 2 equally qualified people are applying for the same job. one is a white male, one is a black male. the employer can choose to employ the black person soley on the basis that he is a minority status in order to better balance the demographics of their employees.
I think this is dangerous ground, what happens if the 2 people applying are considered under-represented within the company, one is a black male, the other a black female. Does the female get it because she represents 2 minorities?
surely discriminating against anyone, in any form and for any reason is wrong. this surely cannot work. There can't be any clauses or conditions or exceptions to discrimination law, otherwise where will it end. First the white male, who next?
It will cause anomosity in the workplace, people will be looked down upon because others believe they only got their job because of their minority status.
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That is what is known as "affirmative action"
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Im new here and this subject caught my eye as i was part of the 'have a go' day in Avon.
Whatever you think of it, and it certainly had me doubting some parts, i have to commend Avon for trying something different. For some reason, women and BME groups are not applying to join us and that worries me. Its very easy to dismiss it with 'if they dont wanna join then its up to them' but i want the best people for the job and if 65% of Bristols population are not applying then we could be missing out on a lot of talented people.
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I came across this post and started reading with a deep sense of dread. I was massively impressed and relieved with most of replies which showed a maturity and level of acceptance I wasn't expecting.
I am a female firefighter and I am very proud of my profession. It took me over 2 years to become wholetime. During this time I responded to over 8 campaigns in brigades all over the country and became a retained FF in my local brigade. During this time, not once did I receive any female specific information or assistance. I was the only female on my training course and there was one BME on a course of 21. And the rest of the course were of course........ white, heterosexual males. Very nice they were too. Positive action has been used for the last 8 YEARS so why are us minority groups still such a massive minority when apparently all we have to turn up an open day and we're measured up for our kit! The easiest retort I can give to people who assume only non- white males are recruited is go to your training centre, today, and see the reality. Unfortunately the ham fisted approach some brigades have employeed to attract minority groups has backfired horribly. I never want anyone to look at me and think I'm only here to fill a target.
As we all know, our job is not for everybody and I would never, ever defend the wrong person being appointed but then again we all know someone who we look at and think 'how the hell did you get in'. It's a better story if the incompetent person is 'the girl from green' or 'the asian bloke from B2' rather than the 20 year LFF who is so fat he can't wear a BA set. The important thing is- would you write them off or offer them support to improve? We all have strenghs and weaknesses, that's why we work in a team. If someone isn't strong enough to drag a 12stone person and has no intention of developing that strength, then that is a serious, potentially dangerous problem. But if they do? Then don't we owe it to them to get behind them and encourage them? Don't punish someone for the brigade's failings, that person has passed what that brigade has deemed appropriate tests.
I think a lot of people want to look for lazy reasons to blame someone else for there own misfortunes.
Do I want to see 14% female firefighters? No, it shouldn't have a percentage tagged on it- I want this remarkable, rewarding job to be appealing to anyone who has the determination, resiliance and enhusiasm to fulfill the role. I came from a background of building work and still, despite always working with men, it took a friend of mine to apply to the fireservice for it to go off like a lightbulb in my head that the fire service could be my perfect career. If you have never been a minority in a situation it is futile me trying to explain the importance of peer support. For the more enlightened of you, try going to a step aerobic class, on your own. I'll bet that hour will really open your eyes. Role models are the key- and they take time in finding.
So anyway- i thought there were some great comments on here that are very encouraging for our service. We are a team- let's look after each other.
Oh and by the way- if you a white, male primary school teacher, there are postive action campaigns just for you! ;)