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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Community Fire Safety => Topic started by: CarlyD on January 30, 2008, 11:35:47 PM
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Hello, I am considering buying a nightclub.
I have checked with the local fire officer and the capacity for the club is 780.
I know that it easily takes 2,000 people (floorspace wise) as it's approx 15,000 sqft.
I spoke to the brewery and they suggested that I can set the capacity limit myself??? is this true?
I want to make this club work, but with 780 it will look empty and just won't work.
Any suggestions???
Thanks in advance
CarlyD
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It's not just a matter of floorspace, but also the number of exits, their location & width. There are guides to help carry out a fire risk assessment which amongst many other things will consider the capacity, but you would be strongly advised to seek the advice of a competent person from a consultancy (that has leisure and entertainment premises experience) or the larger brewery/leisure chains in solving this problem.
A nightclub was closed and it's owner fined a large 5 figure sum recently for exceeding it's safe capacity amongst other things, so you need to get it right.
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I have spoken to the fire officer who initially set the capacity to 780 based on fire escapes etc.
I just want to make sure that there is no other way that this can be over-ridden?
The brewery mentioned something about me being able to manually set the capacity? is this true?
Also if we widened the doorway into the fire escape although the actual fire escape is no larger would that make a difference. By the way the nightclub is on the 3rd floor so there are 3 stories to go down.
I obvously don't want to break the law which is why I am asking these questions here!
Thanks
CarlyD
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Do not e misled by the person who is urging you to set your own capacity. Sadly many of the brewerys these days paint a very rosy picture to prospective landlords to entice them in then cast them adrift and watch callously as they sink.
There are standard methods for calculating the safe capacity of a building. These methods are tried and tested and are described in Approved Document B for the Building Regulations and inthe Fire Safety guides issued by the Government. All these are available for free download. Take a look here:
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk
Step 1- measure the avasilable floor area in sq m and multiply it by the density factor- 1 sq m per person for dance floors, 0.5 sq m per person for general bar area, 0.3 sq m per person for a crush bar.
Step 2- the most important bit- Look at the number. location, travel distance to exits, width and direction of opening of doors and width of staircases and corridors. Then apply the tables in the document. eg for 200 persons you need 2 exits each 1 metre wide throughout their length.
Step 3- check that fire on the floors below cannot affect your nightclub for at least one hour and that all doors in the staircases are fire resisting self closing doors in good condiition.
Take the advice of the fire officer. He has no interest whatsoever in deceiving you- unlike the brewery.
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Hi Kurnal, Thank you for your obviously well informed response.
I will trust the fire officer's opinion as you suggest, I don't want anyone to get hurt in there!
Thanks again
CarlyD
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Hi Kurnal, This is strange!
I have visited another venue which is smaller than my venue, and from what I could see had less fire escapes.
There were way more than the 780 that we have.
Is it actually possible that the owner/mamager has suggested a higher number? Or is the fire officer's word the law?
Thanks
Carl
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CarlyD
What is the occupancy stated in the previous licence?
It sounds to me that you need to have a competent person calculate the capacity for you, but I would seriously doubt that the inspecting officers calculations are incorrect.
There are obviously factors which support this decision (which are difficult to comment without seeing the building), but an issue as simple as being on the 3rd floor would not make matters easier.
Also, there is a mangement issue on yourself about controlling the numbers within the premises too.
Not definitive im afraid, but I would certianally get professional advice. I agree fully Kurnal about the advice you are being given by the brewery. As to setting your own occupancy, I would not want to be in your shoes if it all goes pete tong.
Anyway, good luck
Jay
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Hi FSO, is it legally possible to set our own capacity?
Thanks
Carl
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CarlyD, you need a Premises licence from the local Authority on which it will state the safe capacity of the premises. This will be set by refernce to a number of other authorities such as the police and the fire authority if the Fire authority make a representation. They do not have to as they are enforcers of fire safety law under the Regulatory Reform(Fire Safety) Order 2005. You could get a licence from the local authority and have to make changes if the Fire authority are not happy with the capacity you have had set. There are a number of other things you will need to do to comply with fire safety law amongst which would be to have a recorded fire risk assessment and to have a recorded fire safety policy (on the lines of Health and Safety Guidance Note 65). No simple task and as suggested above if you do not believe that you have the competence to do this you will need specialist assistance.
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CarlyD
Difficult to say without seeing the building. The methods of calculating the safe capacity of the building has been around for generations. Its tried and tested. Sometimes people ignore the maximum capacity and overcrowd their clubs, obstruct exits, forget to unlock an exit, or otherwise through ignorance make their premises unsafe.
Take a google on summerland, stardust disco, station nightclub, bradford city football ground. One relevant to you may be the top storey club in Bolton. Theres many many other tragic examples.
Since the change to licensing law standards have plummetted in my opinion. Many local authorities dont bother to challenge the applicant for a premises licence when they either put a silly figure on the application, put together a meaningless operating schedule or put nothing at all in the box intended for a safety statement. Many local authorities employ scale 1 clerks to process applications and take the view that they are obliged to issue a licence unless they receive an objection. Many fire authorities dont bother to look at licensing applications because they take the view that if there is a problem they will enforce it through the fire safety legislation- a valid point of view but their systems aren't joind together so they never think to take a look.
So you can probably get away with whatever you want as far as the application form is concerned. Since the demise of the licensing justices its rife. One club owner whom I carried out a risk assessment and set the right limit of 450 boasts that he packed 900 in on new years eve. I hope it doesnt take a disaster for the authorities to chuck the book at him.
Do you want to fall in this category with your club? I dont think so because you obviously care enough to ask the advice of this forum.
The fire Officer has no vested interest other than not wanting to see people get hurt. Please listen to him or to a responsible consultant. Its not based on scaremongering or spoilsport namby pambys. Its based on real life and death experiences.
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Hi Kurnal,
Thanks again for your advice. I certainly do not want anyone to get hurt.
The venue is some 15,000 square feet and with just 780 in there it would look empty.
I have been in as a customer when there has been over 1,500 (previous owners let more in) and it still was not packed.
It does have a sprinkler system, does this have any affect?
I am simply trying to balance the safety issues with financial aspects of the business.
I hope that does not sound calous, I am not saying I will risk lives for money - I certainly would not.
The 780 seems to be very low, given that there are x4 fire escapes (x3 excluding the largest one) these are one at 1000m, one at 1100mm and one at 1200mm.
Thank
Carl
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CarlyD, using the table C1 on page 11 out of the LDSA Technical Standards for licensed premises, your safe capacity will probably be in or around the 750 mark.
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CarlyD
Required exit widths are worked out to keep a nice flow of people through the exits at a speed that we would move through an exit unhindered, and generally aim towards a potential 2.5 minute evacuation.
Just to demonstrate from your figures working from exit widths suggested in ADB:
>>one at 1000m<<
You should get 110 people through this exit in 2.5 minutes
>>one at 1100mm<<
You should get 220 through this exit in 2.5 minutes
>>and one at 1200mm. <<
You should get 240 through this exit in 2.5 minutes.
Looks like if your measurements are correct then an occupancy of 570 would be appropriate as per Approved Document B. (This is just an example working from the figures you gave.)
Floorspace would suggest that the building could hold at least 2800 persons. (1400m2 at 0.5m2 per person = 1400/0.5=2800) At 5mm per person that would require 14metres of exit width. (After discounting the largest exit)
At present, if you were to occupy the club to a capacity of 2800, in the event of an emergency your exits can allow out 228 persons per minute. (570 persons takes 2.5 minutes, so 570/2.5 = 228 persons per minute)
So 2800 persons, 228 per minute means 2800/228 = number of minutes necessary to evacuate your club.
2800/228 = 12.3 minutes
As you might imagine, this would not be good.
To throw another light on it: To have enough exits for your potential capacity look at your biggest door available so far; The 1200mm door can allow 240 persons through in 2.5 minutes.
2800 capacity / 240 persons = 11.66
That means you really need 13 of those 1200mm exits (The extra one is to discount) to allow these people out effectively.
Sorry if I have gone on a bit, but I think it demonstrates the difference between having adequate exits, and not having adequate exits.
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CarlyD, you need a Premises licence from the local Authority on which it will state the safe capacity of the premises. This will be set by refernce to a number of other authorities such as the police and the fire authority if the Fire authority make a representation. They do not have to as they are enforcers of fire safety law under the Regulatory Reform(Fire Safety) Order 2005. You could get a licence from the local authority and have to make changes if the Fire authority are not happy with the capacity you have had set. There are a number of other things you will need to do to comply with fire safety law amongst which would be to have a recorded fire risk assessment and to have a recorded fire safety policy (on the lines of Health and Safety Guidance Note 65). No simple task and as suggested above if you do not believe that you have the competence to do this you will need specialist assistance.
Joker, I agree with everything except
'Premises licence from the local Authority on which it will state the safe capacity of the premises.'
Premises Licences certainly to my knowledge do not have safe capacity limits put on them, but a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment should have.
Most licensing solicitors will try to but as little as possible within the licensing objectives to prevent the need for paying for a variation every time something changes. I don`t have a problem with that. Most licensing objectives are covered by and enforced by other legislation.
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All guidance, including BS5588 Pt6, point to the principle that the number of escape routes is based on the occupancy factor and include the discounting of one. Thats great until you read the 3rd pargraph of BS5588 Pt6 6.6.1. which ends by saying:-
"If all exits from the assembly space are final exits, then the fire cannot affect any part of the escape routes outside the assembly space. As any fire should be visible to the occupants at an early stage, it is not considered neccessary to discount one of the exits from such assembly areas if three or more exits are provided."
There's nothing like consistancy, is there?
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The sprinkler system may justify a 20% increase in numbers if all other things such as fire separation between other occupancies in the building and the spec and maintenance of the system are up to the mark.
This is because it COULD justify an assessment of lower risk and a target evacuation time of 3 minutes.
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Premises Licences certainly to my knowledge do not have safe capacity limits put on them, but a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment should have.
Most licensing solicitors will try to but as little as possible within the licensing objectives to prevent the need for paying for a variation every time something changes. I don`t have a problem with that. Most licensing objectives are covered by and enforced by other legislation.
Im sorry to sound rude but you are badly misinformed. Fire Authorities can and will set occupany figures on a premises license under the Licensing Act where they see fit. You are confusing the RRO with the Licensing Act. Under the RRO the fire authority can not directly* enforce numbers. Instead it expects you to set occupancy figures in your fire risk assessment. It can of course go to enforcement if it disagrees with numbers you have set or ask a review of your premises license if it feels the license holder isn't playing ball. Please please dont think you can "get round it". And don't listen to breweries they can be very naughty at this. They sometimes see themselves above the law.
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Im sorry to sound rude but you are badly misinformed. Fire Authorities can and will set occupany figures on a premises license under the Licensing Act where they see fit. You are confusing the RRO with the Licensing Act. Under the RRO the fire authority can not directly* enforce numbers. Instead it expects you to set occupancy figures in your fire risk assessment. It can of course go to enforcement if it disagrees with numbers you have set or ask a review of your premises license if it feels the license holder isn't playing ball. Please please dont think you can "get round it". And don't listen to breweries they can be very naughty at this. They sometimes see themselves above the law.
Its ok you don’t sound rude, debate is healthy and any FSO should expect to be challenged.
My information is based on the paragraph 2.20 - 2.28 of Guidance under section 182 of the Licensing Act 2003, it was issued in June 2007. It spells out the new responsibilities for Fire Authorities and recommends that Licensing Authorities should not seek to impose fire safety conditions on licences.
This information has been brought to my attention in an article in the October edition of the Licensing Review and confirmed by solicitor working for the licensing department at my local council.
Anyone who wants a copy of the article I can fax it, sorry I’ve only got a hard copy.
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That is correct, the RR(FS)O inArticle 43 states that " fire safety conditions can not be held on a licence where the Order applies". I know that is a para phrase but it is succinct enough for me.
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Some local authorities may be willing to put occupancy figures on under "public safety" as opposed to "fire".
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I think there is confusion here.
To try and clear this up a little:-
a) Fire Authorities have a duty to consult on licensing applications. They can ask the applicant to sign up to voluntary conditions. A voluntary condition maybe that the fire authority says "you will agree to have only 150 people in this bar" The applicant dioesn't have to agree to that but if they do not the fire authority will continue with its representation and the licensing authority will hold a hearing. The licensing authority can overrule the fire authority if required or thwey can uphold their representation and say "yes we agree with the fire service and you wont get your license until you agree to the fire authorities occupancy fighures". Conversely they can say "We think the fire authority are being too onerous on this occassion and we will issue the license without occupancy firgures imposed"
2) Yes the Fire Authority should only use its primary legislation but dont forget that:-
a) The RRO can only apply once the premises are trading. If the building isnt trading and is empty the RRO doesn't apply. ANd if you did have a process where the applicant was allowed to open the premises against the fire service approval the fire authority could issue a restruiction or prohibition notice as soon as it opens for trade.
b) The Fire Authority is a statutory consultee and has a duty to consult with the licensing authority on all applications.
c)CivvyFSO mentioned "Public safety as apposed to fire". Public safety includes the issue of fire safety so that is not quite true.
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The main entrance exit is 3000mm wide all the way down. Although I did not put that in as I was told you have to discount the largets exit?
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CarlyD, in truth you can only have the number of people that you can get out safely. That figure according to one of your earlier posts is 780. There is no way around that unless you want to ignore those figures and trade anyway. The outcome will be at some stage the FRS will come and have alook and enforce the figure or something will happen.
In Rhode island in the states sometime ago now, I would send you the video but it is probably too big, 300 plus people were in a single storey club attending a live gig. The premises had 4 exits but the fire spread so rapidly that 101 people died. That is the reality out there. You can get lots of info by googling the Station nightclub fire.
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I think there is confusion here.
To try and clear this up a little:-
a) Fire Authorities have a duty to consult on licensing applications. They can ask the applicant to sign up to voluntary conditions. A voluntary condition maybe that the fire authority says "you will agree to have only 150 people in this bar" The applicant dioesn't have to agree to that but if they do not the fire authority will continue with its representation and the licensing authority will hold a hearing. The licensing authority can overrule the fire authority if required or thwey can uphold their representation and say "yes we agree with the fire service and you wont get your license until you agree to the fire authorities occupancy fighures". Conversely they can say "We think the fire authority are being too onerous on this occassion and we will issue the license without occupancy firgures imposed"
Yes they could ask the applicant to volintarily sign up to a occupancy figure. If they say no my fire risk assessment has set an occupany figure. I don`t want it on my licence because if it changes I have to pay to vary my licence. What to we do then?
If we make representation, the Licensing Committe can only grant or refuse the licence they can`t put fire safety conditions on the licence. If the Fire Authority are asking for the occupancy figure then it must be a fire safety condition. Also, the committee can`t say you can have your licence when you have done what the Fire Authority want - It has to be yes or no. Licensing Committees have put fire safety conditions on licences in the past they are now being told the can`t do it. Just to muddy the waters what if the police ask for the occupancy figure what would be the decision of the committee then?:)
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All guidance, including BS5588 Pt6, point to the principle that the number of escape routes is based on the occupancy factor and include the discounting of one. Thats great until you read the 3rd pargraph of BS5588 Pt6 6.6.1. which ends by saying:-
"If all exits from the assembly space are final exits, then the fire cannot affect any part of the escape routes outside the assembly space. As any fire should be visible to the occupants at an early stage, it is not considered neccessary to discount one of the exits from such assembly areas if three or more exits are provided."
There's nothing like consistancy, is there?
nearlythere, you're quoting a recommendation that was removed a number of years ago. Provocatively, they left in the commentary that discusses the issue you mention but the associated recommendation is gone.
The principle could be considered to hold in certain cases...
...or maybe not. It's left open...
As a point of general interest on the topic being discussed, DD9999 usually gives higher numbers than ADB by virtue of the high ceilings that are usually present in such premises.
Stu
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If we make representation, the Licensing Committe can only grant or refuse the licence they can`t put fire safety conditions on the licence. If the Fire Authority are asking for the occupancy figure then it must be a fire safety condition. Also, the committee can`t say you can have your licence when you have done what the Fire Authority want - It has to be yes or no. Licensing Committees have put fire safety conditions on licences in the past they are now being told the can`t do it. Just to muddy the waters what if the police ask for the occupancy figure what would be the decision of the committee then?:)
No Dinnertime Dave. If any of the statutory consultees / responsible authorities make representation against a new license and it goes to a hearing the Licensing committee can either go with the concerns of the responsible authority or ignore them.
Lets say the fire service makes reps that they are unhappy about the public Safety Objective not being actively promoted due to insufficient fire warning and detection.
The Fire Service set out the reasons as to why it is concerned at the licensing hearing. Lets imagine that the licensing committee agrees with the fire service it will become a condition of the license that the applicant has to sign up to and carry out the Fire Authority's recommendations before the license is issued (or where voluntary conditions are signed up to works are completed before opening to the public).
So yes the licensing committee can say "no we wont issue your license until you sign up the fire authority's voluntary conditions " afterall they cant just say "No we arent going to issue the license" and leave it at that!
They lawfully have to explain why they wont grant a license and what works need to be done so that you can have the license issued.
How do I know all this? well i happen to deal with this process on a daily basis.
So whichever way you look at it youve got to comply. Call them voluntary conditions, call them whatever you want if you don't undertake to action them you will either find your license won't be issued or a review of your premises license will be called or the fire authority may issue seperate enforcement action under the RRO.
The police can set occcupancy fugures if they wish as can environmental health.
Where these clash the lowest figure is taken.
So if for example the fire service want an occupany figure limited to 200 persons, police want it for 175 and Environmental Health want to be 220 then 175 (being the lowest) will be the figure used.
You say you dont want to have numbers imposed on your license. Has the licensing authority done so already? have they commented that they want to impose numbers, because sometimes they won't - it all depends on the premises. if you have a big premises with multiple exits they might not impose occupancy firgures on it.
If they do want to impose numbers think of the absolute maxuimum you'd want in at anyone time and submit that with your application based on the available exit widths you currently have and floor space etc. if you need an increase over and above your maximum in future that should automatically tell you that you may need to have building works done to increase floor space and or exit widths which will probably lead to a variation of your license anyway.
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I think M R we are going to have to agree to disagree,
If you manage to get fire safety conditions put on licences then I take my hat off to you. I have had conditions put on licences prior to June 2007 but not since. It is said that if you put two fire safety officers or fire safety professionals in a room then they will disagree; it appears that if you put two different Licensing Authorities in a room they will also disagree.
As already stated my information is based on the paragraph 2.20 - 2.28 of Guidance under section 182 of the Licensing Act 2003, it was issued in June 2007. It spells out the new responsibilities for Fire Authorities and recommends that Licensing Authorities should not seek to impose fire safety conditions on licences and as Joker points out ‘Article 43 says that fire safety conditions can not be held on a licence where the order applies”.
My local Licensing department will enforce this to the letter. They have also informed me that they no longer have the option of provisionally granting the licence and then allowing it to come into force when any work is done ( which personally I think is a mistake) - it is Yes or No.
I too deal with licensing on a daily basis, I too are in the Midlands but with a different licensing authority that uses different rules. :)
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Dinnertime Dave Im going to have to ask you to stop behind after school. Youre heading for double detention.
The confusion comes because the RR(FS)O does not always apply to a Licensing application.
The reason it doesn't apply is that empty premises which aren't either occupied or trading can't come under the auspices of the RRO. If no one is in the rpemises no one is at risk!
If it is an empty pub and a new licensee wishes to take it over the RRO can't apply until the pub is trading.
So we use the licensing act to reply to the licensing authority and make sure the fire safety provisions are addressed.
You can't enforce risk assessment using the licensing act and would need to do that under the RRO
We here don't put fire safety conditions put on a license ... they're public safety conditions that are put on the license - it just so happens some of those objectives might relate to fire safety.
So the LA may say "We arent granting the license Mr Bloggs because the public safety objective is not being adequately promoted in terms of means of escape from the licensed bar" for instance.
So in which case the applicant will say "Right what do I need to do then to get you to issue that license?" and the licensing authority will say " meet the public safety objective by signing up to these voluntary conditions (which will include comments about improving means of escape ) or come up with a suitable alternative of equal standing and we will issue the license"
OR
The LA will issue the license but the fire authority will go in under the RRO and do it that way once premsies open.
Thats how you can still impose fire safety related conditions on a license.
Both mechanisms exist but the RRO can deal with the non licensed parts as well as the licensed parts of the premises and only becomes applicable when the building is occupied or trading
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If it is an empty pub and a new licensee wishes to take it over the RRO can't apply until the pub is trading.
So we use the licensing act to reply to the licensing authority and make sure the fire safety provisions are addressed.
I agree, don`t want detention can I go out to play now. Good debate though. Love to discuss TEN`s next.
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Nothing in the RRO about it not applying to empty buildings - It does - the FRA is a bit easier to do though.
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If it is an empty pub and a new licensee wishes to take it over the RRO can't apply until the pub is trading.
So we use the licensing act to reply to the licensing authority and make sure the fire safety provisions are addressed.
I agree, don`t want detention can I go out to play now. Good debate though. Love to discuss TEN`s next.
Yes Master Dave you can go, but it looks as if Wee Brian might have to come to my office for the cane....
I just realised this all sounds a bit "kinky" really - best go away and think about what just happened here.
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Hi Guys, wow this is all way above my head and very confusing.
I just called the licensing dept (NOT the fire safety dept) they have no capacity figures stated - only the hours that we are allowed to sell alchohol.
They suggested I call the local fire safety officer to find what the capacity is - which I have already done and he told me it's 780.
Does that mean there are no capacity figures on the premises, or does it mean that it is 780.
Thanks
CarlyD
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I feel like we are covering old ground here, but...
That means that in the fire officers professional opinion you only have enough exits for 780 people.
The legal side of it is this: There is no actual legal stated capacity limit on how many people you can put in your club, it is really your responsiblity to work it out or to get a consultant in to work it our for you. Then this figure can go in your risk assessment, along with how you will control it. This fire officer has saved you the trouble of working it out, but if you don't want to believe him then you work out your own figure and justify your answer.
Now bear in mind that the fire safety order states:
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14. (2) The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—
(b) in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible;
(c) the number, distribution and dimensions of emergency routes and exits must be adequate having regard to the use, equipment and dimensions of the premises and the maximum number of persons who may be present there at any one time
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So, to work out the number of people your club can safely evacuate we would look at the current guidance, which I suspect would lead to suggesting that your club only has enough exits for about 780 people. So if you stick 2,000 people in, and we visit you, you will quite possibly end up in court for not complying with article 14(2)(c). We would be turning up to court with our guides and post war building studies to justify our figures.
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Hi CarlyD
Sometimes occupancy figures aren't put on licenses. There are several reasons for this but I won't bore you to death with all of them as they may add to the confusion.
It may be that occupancy figures are not imposed on a license because the licensing authority feels that the premises aren't expected to get swarms of people use it all at the same time (i.e small country pub with say a maximum of 100 opatrons at any one time as opposed to a concert hall which could have over 3000 people in at anyone time for instance).
Why an occupancy figure was never put on your license is not clear (could be numerous reasons) but as CivvyFSO has stated above where an occupancy figure isn't mentioned in your license you have to effectively "set an occupany figure yourself" using a fire risk assessment.
Do we get fee to entry to your club for all this fabulous advice we have given you?
We could all come down and do a joint fire risk assessment for you, in return for say free beer perhaps? :D
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so does this mean that I am breaking the law if we exceed 780 then?
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Hmmmm not necessarily no.... but....
The fire officer has advised you that in his professional judgement 780 is the maximum and I'd stick to that to be honest.
The fire officer will have looked at the plans of your building, looked at how many exits you have and based his or her decison on that.
The problem you have is that whilst the licensing authority hasn't set an official occupancy figure on your license you still need to consider how many people can safely use your club.
To do that you should do your own occupancy calculations.
You will need to know how to technically assess exit widths and floor space factors. Its not brain surgery and there are guides available to help you
But if you don't have the time or dont want to sit and read the guidance you should hire a fire safety consultant to do the calcs for you, or alternatively as you have already done so ask the fire service / fire officer.
Be intresting to find out if the fire officer will be willing to confirm that figure in writing to you
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I would say yes, you would be breaking the law, since article 14 of the RRFSO states that you need enough exits for people in the building.
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as we have 3 fire exits of 1000mm to 1200mm and a main entrance/exit of 3000mm wide can we include the main entrance/exit?
Thanks for everyones help and comments.
CarlyD
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All available guidance states that you should discount that main exit.
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The 3rd para is in the commentary 6.6.1 but in the recommendations it was deleted ( see 6.6.2 b Text deleted ) therefore discounting of exits is recommended. Apparently when the new revision of part 6 was done this was missed.
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Lots of people are quoting paragraphs and things, where can I get this document from to read it for myself.
Thanks
CarlyD
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CarlyD. you can download the large places of assembly document for existing buildings at www. communities.gov.uk. You need to g0 to fire and rsilience and then fire safety law and guidsance documents. You can also access Approved Document B from the Planning Portal or you e mail me on this address and I will send you somebits.
jokar1975@hotmail.com
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Hi there, I'm new on here and relatively new to the industry so don't completely tear me apart if I'm completely wrong....
But I was having a look at DD9999 and you can get up to 1000 in based on reductions in the required door widths based on some combination of the sprinkler system, the ceiling heights and maybe an upgrade of the fire alarm. See Tables 17 & 18, DD9999 allows a maximum reduction to 3.3mm per person (3300/3.3). Don't know if this helps CarlyD, but it might be worth looking into getting a Fire Engineer on board and seeing what they can do about it.
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There is a new draft of DD9999 out which is currently unreadable so before you look at this version get the proper copy.
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Hi Jokar, I have emailed you for the docs if that's OK?
Thanks in advance
CarlyD
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Sambo, DD/PD9999 is a design document, it is not intended for helping in risk assessing existing buildings, especially not for people to use just to warrant fitting more people into their nightclub.
CarlyD, I will save you the bother of translating DD9999:
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Occupancy characteristic B
Fire growth rate 2? = 0.012kj/s
From table 4 = Category B2
Table 5 confirms dance hall/bar as B2
Table 6, specific purpose group...
Assembly and recreation (high hazard) 5a
Places of assembly, entertainment or recreation; (other than sports stadia) including theatres, broadcasting, recording, and film studios (attended by the public), casinos, dance halls, funfairs and amusement arcades, non-residential music or dancing clubs.
Which specifically gives group B3
Table 7 states that occupancy B3 requires management level 1 as defined in BS5588 part 12.
Table 8 gives the minimum level of fire alarm for the risk group as L2
Table 10 gives you the floor space factors to be used in working out how many people will fit in to the building.
0.3m2 per person in the bar areas
0.5m2 per person in the dance areas/crush hall/assembly areas
Then we go to table 13, door widths when MINIMUM fire protection methods are provided: (i.e. L2 alarm system, management to 5588 pt 12)
Group B3... 7mm per person for exit widths. DOH!
If additional fire protection methods are provided (i.e. Voice alarms) then according to table 18 you can go to 5.3mm per person for exit widths.
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So what all that basically means is that even following the most recent document that takes into account many different aspects of fire safety, and going ABOVE what it suggests, you still cannot get any more people into the club than the fire officer suggested. You can actually get less.
I am not sure what it is going to take to convince you that the original fire officer was possibly telling the truth, but it has occurred to me that you don't see to want to accept the answers given, and I don't think you will be happy until one of us says that 2,000 people will fit into your club.
There are fire professionals from all different walks of life here in this forum, from fire inspectors like myself to very experienced ex-inspectors, risk assessors, consultants and fire engineers. The consultants and the devil's advocates in here are always looking for an area where they can belittle a fire safety officer like myself for being 'over onerous' (Or for being quite simply 'wrong'.) but nobody seems to be saying anything very different from the first few answers you were given.
Look at it from this point of view: The number of people you can get through a door is a reasonably constant thing. All the british standards and design documents in the world will not make those people walk any quicker.