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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: BCO on February 01, 2008, 10:41:33 AM
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Currently looking at a sports facility with swimming pool. The alarm system as specified is an L2; however it is not proposed to install detection in the pool area. The pool area has large spectator area at one side. The L2 system has been specified as a compensatory feature for some inner room situations and some areas where the open spatial planning rules are not fully complied with.
2 questions,
1) is it normal ‘not’ to install detectors in a pool environment, even with a spectator area
2) If detection is provided, which type would be suitable for this environment?
Your expert answers would be greatly appreciated.
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Difficult question- the pool is a very hostile environment and access for maintenance to point detectors would be a nightmare. The risk is very low generally and the spectator area may be a red herring- why would we need detectors in this area whilst persons are present- because people are the best form of detection.
Further review the fire risk in the pool, look at waste bins and substitute smaller, non combustibles, separate off any plant rooms. Having done this there will be no point in putting detection in there other than perhaps heat for property protection out of hours.
I wonder if L5 would have been more appropriate compensatory feature? if the pool is the access room then the risk is probably so low as to allow a relaxation of the inner room rules. After all is the fire risk in a swimming pool any higher than in a protected corridor or staircase?
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There may be a greater need to consider the installation of detectors if the pool is covered over for part of the year for other sports or functions.
If the Risk Assessment concludes that detection is needed, then beam detection would be the best bet. These can be sited on end walls of the building for easier installation and subsequent access but still cover the whole floor area. An aspirating system might also be suitable, but you'd have to consult the makers about their suitability in, as kurnal says, a hostile environment.
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I would think about beam detection in the pool area
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beam detection is out, due to water polo!
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Beam detection can be set up with a range of parameters- including percentage obscuration and duration of obscuration- birds in warehouses can otherwise be a problem!
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The main problem will be corrosion of metal parts due to chlorine in the atmosphere. You should specify marine grade detectors if you install point type. You may be able to get a special enclosure for the beam TX / RX with the control equipment in a safer area. Try double knock for the beams if you think polo may be an issue, but I think you will have problems with beam adjustment due to impact from the ball.
Aspirating may be the way to go but you will need confirmation from the manufacturers about the atmosphere inside the sensing chamber and long term reliability.
Dave
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I am at present dealing with a similar sounding building. As its a Local Authority building we were involved at the design stage. L2 system was specified in all areas except the pool for the reasons discussed. we avoided inner rooms in the pool area which are prodominantly plant rooms anyway, which by their nature required outside access.
My only real observation is this - Is the means of escape really that reliant on detection within the pool area? if so why?
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I am at present dealing with a similar sounding building. As its a Local Authority building we were involved at the design stage. L2 system was specified in all areas except the pool for the reasons discussed. we avoided inner rooms in the pool area which are prodominantly plant rooms anyway, which by their nature required outside access.
My only real observation is this - Is the means of escape really that reliant on detection within the pool area? if so why?
What are the inner rooms used for?
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In the pool there is a first aid room and a pool store which are inner rooms to the pool. The pool inner rooms could easily have vision panels (instead of detection in the pool).
Generally throughout the building there are many inner rooms as there is a large café area which is open to many circulation areas and escape routes with voids that breach floors, this is generally the reason why an L2 has been specified.
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Surely an L2 with bits excluded (that normally would be included) isn't L2 at all but a L5 risk based system?
Just because a system is L5 doesn't mean it is only a couple of heads, it could be dozens, but located (& excluded) to deal with a specific issue - in this case access rooms to inner rooms & areas deviating from normal construction codes.
Does the pool have any areas of fire risk that could not be readily and promptly detected by the occupants? If so then detection of an appropriate type should be considered, but for the area around the pool itself surely the occupants would detect a fire first before a head could and that in an area that is largely wet and tiled the fire risk was less and hence why they decided manual call points alone would suffice?
Just trying to see where the original specifiers were coming from
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I once dealt with a pool in a sprinklered building and I had no qualms about agreeing to omit the sprinklers from the pool area (no spectator area or anything like that around it). If there's no real need for something, there's no need to install it.
Stu
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In the pool there is a first aid room and a pool store which are inner rooms to the pool. The pool inner rooms could easily have vision panels (instead of detection in the pool).
Generally throughout the building there are many inner rooms as there is a large café area which is open to many circulation areas and escape routes with voids that breach floors, this is generally the reason why an L2 has been specified.
Wouldn't concern myself very much about rooms where nobody is employed and where access is only for a very short period eg store.
A room where privacy is required, eg first aid room, could be provided with one way glazing.
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Try researching city of Winchester swimmimg pool fire late 80's early 90's.
Strangely swimming pools "go like a train"
Davio1960
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I have a similar situation regarding a leisure centre with a swimming pool (with spectator area) for which I'm doing the design for an electrical contractor.
The response I've got from him with regard to the category of system is as is often the case "better make it an L1". On this occasion it's making it difficult as detection in the pool area will be a nightmare, point detectors difficult due to future access which leaves beam detection as the only real option.
Would it be reasonable to detail the omission of automatic detection within the pool as a variation due to the minimal fire risk, high possiblity of false alarms due to condensing moisture and future access for maintenance issues. The beam detectors my company tends to use also only have an IP rating of 42 so this is also an issue.
If it were an L2 I'd be confident in omitting it but not sure on an L1, anyone had any similar experiences?
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I have a similar situation regarding a leisure centre with a swimming pool (with spectator area) for which I'm doing the design for an electrical contractor.
The response I've got from him with regard to the category of system is as is often the case "better make it an L1". On this occasion it's making it difficult as detection in the pool area will be a nightmare, point detectors difficult due to future access which leaves beam detection as the only real option.
Would it be reasonable to detail the omission of automatic detection within the pool as a variation due to the minimal fire risk, high possiblity of false alarms due to condensing moisture and future access for maintenance issues. The beam detectors my company tends to use also only have an IP rating of 42 so this is also an issue.
If it were an L2 I'd be confident in omitting it but not sure on an L1, anyone had any similar experiences?
Yes.
Without knowledge of the building but a general knowledge of such buildings, why would you want an L1 system?
Think about the risks here. What might catch fire? The seating........maybe.
How is the fire going to affect people's means of escape? Particularly those people elsewhere in the building who would not be able to see the fire for themselves. Very slowly I would think. Has the pool got a high ceiling?
If there is a low ceiling and such a fire could affect the means of escape of people elsewhere in the building then maybe detection is requitred. Otherwise, there is little need for it and it would be reasonable to omit.
Stu
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We used to maintain a building under sub contract and had to access the detector at the top of the rapid rides waterfall , get paid and go swimming at the same time
how bad was that !
On a serious note however if detection is required why not go air sampling (no real maintenance issues) and set off the action with obscuration and possible delay in transmission of fire , you could use a reference pipe across all sectors as a measure of actual site indications.
Polite note , we all know there is no BS in relation to air sampling .
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The problem in G4VJC's query is that the electrical contractor is speccing the fire alarm system rather than the building design team. It may or it may not warrant a full alarm and detection system to L1 but that decision should be made based upon the fire safety design strategy for the building.
Based on leisure centres and swimming pools I have encountered on the past, including those with tiered seating for viewing competitions I cannot think of any in which I would have specified detection in the immediate pool area itself. It may be appropriate to specify an L1 system with a variation omitting the pool area- or it may be better to take a look at the fire risk, life risk, building construction, fire safety strategy, how the building is used and any needs for property protection and base the spec of the system on the outcome.
73s.
(--./....-/-..-/-/-.-)
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We used to maintain a building under sub contract and had to access the detector at the top of the rapid rides waterfall , get paid and go swimming at the same time
Take it this wasn't one of the old mains powered systems :)
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We used to maintain a building under sub contract and had to access the detector at the top of the rapid rides waterfall , get paid and go swimming at the same time
Take it this wasn't one of the old mains powered systems :)
No me old son , just simple menvier with conventional Hochiki detectors , you know the ones when you wanted to remove one temoparily , you could use a two pence piece across the contacts in the base , hey presto no tools , panel clear no messing about , costly though !