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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Service Training OR Recruitment => Topic started by: Steve Mc Queen on September 16, 2004, 12:42:40 PM
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Now that the Fire Service has signed up to the IPDS system, how is that going to affect retained personnel who wish to go Wholetime?
I know we have all heard, "when IPDS is in force Retained will be able to transfer directly into a Wholetime post, if they have the relivant competancies signed off" But is this really going to happen?
Also what if a Retained Sub applies for a post, Will he now be over qualified, and only able to enter at the level he is already at (Watch Manager)?
Are the Brigades now going to take into account the skills already achieved by Retained personnel when they applie for a post? I know this was not the case in the past.
I know their are many different opinions with regard this matter, but I am only after the facts Please.
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i think this question i best answered by brigades who will be implementing the process. there seems to be no reason why a retained watch manager or firefighters or anyone working the retained system shouldnt be able to transfer so long as they have the correct competencies, however there is the potential that they may not get through the process particularly if it entails all posts being advertised and personnel applying for the post, effectively making a 'transfer' into an application for a post - available to anyone who may believe they are competent. whether by promotion or transfer. this would potentially place retained watch managers and above against whole time watch managers and above. some of those working the retained system will no doubt be suitable but will they be deemed to be competent, thats where the brigades themselves come in, will they trust their own system or erect artificial barriers.
an interesting (or perhaps not!) issue is where this could effect the retained station crewing/management, of similar interest what about a whole time watch manager applying for a retained post on a part time basis, it may be become much more common?
there are other issues such as transfer in and out of control in terms of managers, specifically at station/group manager levels.
lets hope the system is allowed to develop and not rushed just because of individuals either wanting to show how good their brigades are, that way a truly fair system with a fully understood process can be consistently and transparently applied.
sorry if it doesnt answer your question fully,
dave bev
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Steve
May i ask if you have ever applied to join the Service as a Wholetime Firefighter in the past?
And if so, what was the outcome? :rolleyes:
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Yes I have, I have applied to several brigades, and always got through to interveiw stage, but alas no further.
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Steve
Very interesting, please do not be offended by my next question.
Can you honestly say that you (as a R/T JO) feel that every member of your R/T staff has the qualities required to serve the community as a W/T Firefighter?
Bearing in mind that no doubt thay have all applied to hold such a post in the past without any joy. Why?
I fear the situation is a little more complex than you may wish it to be. The introduction of IPDS means that R/T staff (and anyone else) can apply for any post. It does not mean any more than that i'm afraid.
Sorry
Steve
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Steves
The introduction of IPDS and the Grey Book revision means that ALL Ff, CM, WM, SM etc are roles, only with different duty systems available - such as Existing shift, part-time, retained, day crewing and day duty. The move to a different duty system will be possible, but yes many may apply for any vacancy and selection will have to take place.
However, there exists a transitional period where we have staff whose entry tests and training were different and whose assessments of competence have not always been the same. Straightforward duty transfers for these personnel are not always going to be possible. We do need policies and procedures for this and some services have already developed or are designing them. I believe that Norfolk are some way ahead amongst others...........
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http://www.ipds.co.uk/information.php?id=12
Q. If a vacancy for a Wholetime Crew or Watch Manager arises can a Retained crew//Watch manager apply for that vacancy?
A. We must take on board the fact that that there are now no such things as "relevant qualifications". All that has to be satisfied is the requirement in the new Fire Services (Appointment and Promotion) (England and Wales) Regulations for the appointee to have:
"passed such examination in educational subjects as the fire authority maintaining the brigade may require, being such an examination as necessitates a reasonable standard of proficiency in reading, writing and arithmetic and such other subjects, if any, as the fire authority may require; or the fire authority are satisfied that he is of such educational standard that it is unnecessary for him to take any such examination; and A duly qualified medical practitioner selected by the fire authority is satisfied that his general state of health and fitness, including lung function and aerobic capacity is satisfactory to carry out the duties of the role"
(Regulation 5)
If the person has been performing in a satisfactory manner as a Crew or Watch Manager on the retained system of work, then all of the above conditions must, by default, have been met. If the person has accrued evidence of competent performance, the appointment can be made straight into the role, otherwise appointment must be conditional until competent performance has been demonstrated (Regulation 6)
"Those specific requirements are that he has demonstrated to the satisfaction of the authority by whom the fire brigade is maintained that he has reached the National Occupational Standard specified for the role in question".
It is relevant to consider Regulation 8: 8.1.
(1)A person shall not be appointed to any role in a brigade unless he has been selected for such on merit on the basis of fair and open competition following the principles set out in paragraph (2). 8.1.
(2) Those principles are-
(a) vacancies must be advertised in such a way as will, in the opinion of the authority, bring them to the attention of all those likely to be interested in applying;
(b) prospective applicants must be given equal and reasonable access to adequate information about the role and its requirements and about the selection process; and
(c) applicants must be considered equally on merit at each stage of the selection process." This means that the substantive retained officer who has been performing in the role successfully must, by definition, be at least as "meritorious" as someone who has not.
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Steve
Very interesting, please do not be offended by my next question.
Can you honestly say that you (as a R/T JO) feel that every member of your R/T staff has the qualities required to serve the community as a W/T Firefighter?
Bearing in mind that no doubt thay have all applied to hold such a post in the past without any joy. Why?
I am not in a position to say wether the members of my staff have the qualities to serve as a w/t Firefighter,As I do not know what qualities they are looking for. But then again not every member wants to.
I was recently at a meeting where the question came up about becoming W/T and out of 50 Firefighters working the retained duty system, only 5 were interested in a W/T post.
However, I would have no hesitation in recomending them for a post, as they all are extreamly capable and profesional in thier duties, and have shown their dedication and commitment to their comunities, by responding to the alerter 24/7 at the drop of a hat.
Steve
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one brigade has done this they have taken firefighters bfrom rt to wholetime its the future
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one brigade has done this they have taken firefighters bfrom rt to wholetime its the future
whats happened?
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one brigade has done this they have taken firefighters bfrom rt to wholetime its the future
Can't be....'Garlic bread is the future'
seriously though...what brigade has done it and how?
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One main reason R/T are not taken on as W/T is because of the problem of recruiting another R/T person for that station. Of course Brigades will not admit this... and as for R/T working in a a so called proffesional role there is the good and bad sector in every employment, including W/T Firefighters and this comes from an official source. Why do you think so many people apply to join W/T ?, its not because its a respected job, we lost that respect (30K), its because its such a bloody easy job and thats the truth.
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One main reason R/T are not taken on as W/T is because of the problem of recruiting another R/T person for that station. Of course Brigades will not admit this
Every retained ff that i know that has got into WT has stayed in their retained job aswell. Being WT means they can give 6 days out of 8 day cover, which is better than the majority being only ably to give weekends and nights.
Being WT means you are able to give good cover to the retained.
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One main reason R/T are not taken on as W/T is because of the problem of recruiting another R/T person for that station. Of course Brigades will not admit this... and as for R/T working in a a so called proffesional role there is the good and bad sector in every employment, including W/T Firefighters and this comes from an official source. Why do you think so many people apply to join W/T ?, its not because its a respected job, we lost that respect (30K), its because its such a bloody easy job and thats the truth.
At last someone to agree with. I retired two years ago, after 30 years wholetime-what an easy job!
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After spending a fair amount of time reading problems and answers ref tranfers RT/WT, IPDS etc etc etc.... I can only imagine someone may find this an interesting one...
At the begining of the year (January) I applied to transfer to a LAFB from MOD DF&RS (WT/WT), also bearing in mind that I am RT for this brigade I have still had very little joy so far. Every time I make progress and supply evidence of training etc etc I am asked for further information.
The latest information I have been asked for is evidence of "X mapping exercise"...
Before you say LAFBs will not recognise DF&RS transfers, I have two DF&RS colleagues who have recently been successful in transfering to the respective brigades that they were also retained for..
Some brigades have a very modern HR outlook and some are very slow moving forward..
X mapping???????????
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i assume you mean cross mapping as opposed to 'x mapping'?
if you can demonstrate or probably in your case provide evidence that your functional tasks that you perform meet the requirements of the role map for the post you are applying for and also meet the required 'pqa's' it seems there should be few obstacles against being considered as suitable for whole time employment.
dave bev
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One main reason R/T are not taken on as W/T is because of the problem of recruiting another R/T person for that station. Of course Brigades will not admit this
Every retained ff that i know that has got into WT has stayed in their retained job aswell. Being WT means they can give 6 days out of 8 day cover, which is better than the majority being only ably to give weekends and nights.
Being WT means you are able to give good cover to the retained.
6 Days out of 8? I think you've forgotten the fact that WT staff in some brigades are required to have 8 hours before and 8 hours after a shift off.
Interesting theory but wrong.
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One main reason R/T are not taken on as W/T is because of the problem of recruiting another R/T person for that station. Of course Brigades will not admit this
Every retained ff that i know that has got into WT has stayed in their retained job aswell. Being WT means they can give 6 days out of 8 day cover, which is better than the majority being only ably to give weekends and nights.
Being WT means you are able to give good cover to the retained.
6 Days out of 8? I think you've forgotten the fact that WT staff in some brigades are required to have 8 hours before and 8 hours after a shift off.
Interesting theory but wrong.
Every r/t that i know that has got into w/t is in my brigade.
I havent forgotten the fact that WT staff in some brigades are required to have 8 hours before and 8 hours after a shift off, because it is not happeninging in my brigade.
It is fact, not theory and therefore not wrong.
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Every retained ff that i know that has got into WT has stayed in their retained job aswell. Being WT means they can give 6 days out of 8 day cover, which is better than the majority being only ably to give weekends and nights.
Being WT means you are able to give good cover to the retained.
6 Days out of 8? I think you've forgotten the fact that WT staff in some brigades are required to have 8 hours before and 8 hours after a shift off.
Interesting theory but wrong.
Every r/t that i know that has got into w/t is in my brigade.
I havent forgotten the fact that WT staff in some brigades are required to have 8 hours before and 8 hours after a shift off, because it is not happeninging in my brigade.
It is fact, not theory and therefore not wrong.
And they give you 6 full days cover? and what about evenings? 6 full nights? do they all work the same watch?
We have a couple of WT RT and they don't give 6 days cover 8 hours or no 8 hours.... some people need time off
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And they give you 6 full days cover?
Some do
and what about evenings? 6 full nights?
Some do
do they all work the same watch?
No, whats the relevance?
We have a couple of WT RT and they don't give 6 days cover 8 hours or no 8 hours.... some people need time off
We also have some who do the same.
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In my experience WT who are RT are not permitted to give RT cover during the period when they are on shift, also they are not permitted to cover 8 hours before the first day shift and not for 8 hours after the last night shift...
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Lets face it all of this IPDS, IRMP, role mapping and any other rubbish the fire service comes out with in the future will be just as much of a waste of time!
IPDS - Supposed to be a nationaly recognised training standard? Rubbish, not in my experience. I tried to transfer from brigade to brigade and was told that my IPDS qualifications were not recognised, twice!
IRMP - A way of closing fire stations, reducing cover and moth-balling specials such as TLs & HPs and bringing in white elephants such as new dimension.
Role mapping? What the hell is it all about? I've been trying for ages to work it out and it just seems like a pointless paper exercise to me! Thought up by some civil servant or pen pusher with a degree in gibberish!
I was wholetime/retained for many years and recently packed it in, not because of the job but because of the endless penny pinching and double standards between WT & Ret. Lets face facts brigades take retained personnel for granted and have done for years. It's a well known fact that brigades don't like recruiting retained firefighters into wholetime positions. So I can't see how they will now just let retained personnel walk into WT posts, its not going to happen. In my opinion though, it should.
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pete p - you forgot to mention how little this is costing for of all this and the enormous benefits it will bring over the previous 'processes'
dave bev
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Sorry Dave Im yet to see any benefit as yet, Im still lost. For example: I dont agree with the notion that a Ff could apply for a StnO job so long as he or she could prove competency? How could you have faith and respect for someone in such a position?
But back to the issue in hand, I think that brigades should practice what they preach. If a retained man or woman can be passed as a qualified retained Ff, then he or she should be good enough in the WT.
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But back to the issue in hand, I think that brigades should practice what they preach. If a retained man or woman can be passed as a qualified retained Ff, then he or she should be good enough in the WT.
I agree but only if the standards for recruitment are the same.
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pete p, humour!
dave bev
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Can anyone please help clear the mist from eyes and ears over IPDS / Retained?
I was one of the last batch to take the old style, brigade orientated LF exams before the start of IPDS. My brigade virtually copied the WT format for retained and all I had left to do was the drill section and all finished.
However I just missed the date and was told that I would be transferred onto the new system to complete. All my exam passes would be credited against role maps etc. Speaking to the IPDS Hub and my own training centre it soon became obvious that the retained aspect had not really been formulated. I got passed from person to person. Each giving a different viewpoint. But nothing solid. Mentioned by the Hub was assessment centres and intirim interviews. But the brigade training centre just did not know.
Earlier on this year a senior officer gave a briefing about what was going to happen and that an assessment centre was going to happen mid year and interviews held. But it was also mentioned that the private contractors brought in to set up the process had not managed to complete and another contractor was taking over.
It is now November and still no news! People are still retiring and leaving but there are nobody to replace them. Also to make things more interesting is that firefighters who had completed most of the old style exams were allowed to take a pump out. I have done this for some time. Lack of manpower dictates this. But now an edict has been issued that that must now stop under health and safety. I believed that under the IPDS system taking a pump out occassionally was part of the gaining command experience role.
Can anyone enlighten me on what the situation actually is?
Tom
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tom check out via the odpm web site the consultation paper re progression of operational and control staff -
anyone can make comment or reply to a consultation, and it is important that individuals reply - especially if they have definite issues that might not be picked up by anyone else - the fbu is in the process of co-ordinating a response - not sure who else is other than cfoa
dave bev