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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Ignatius Knight on February 02, 2008, 10:56:10 PM
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Hi,
This is my first post so please be lenient if I break any rules.
I always had the plan to get out of my office job, move to the country and run a small scale bed & breakfast just to pay the bills and keep me in bike and hill walking kit. Me and my wife decided that this was the year to go for it.
We have found a lovely house which we thought would fit the bill. It is not a B & B at the moment. It is 3 storey with 5 bedrooms, We have not decided whether we would let out 4 or 3 rooms (depends if we can get showers in all the rooms).
We have been getting all the boxes ticked before comitting to buy - arranging mortgage, quote from plumber for extra toilets, etc., then I googled 'fire regulations B & B', and saw my dream go up in flames.
It pointed me to the 147 page 'Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Sleeping Accommodation' tome. After reading this - I'm confused, and realise that if I'm going to get into B & B, I'm going to need to get expert advice.
I stumbled on this site, so thought I'd chance my arm for some quick thoughts. I've done the search thing and found a number of related threads, which added to my confusion and confirmed to me that I will need to get help.
So a few quick questions, which will help me decide if I should persue this house and what to look for in future:
1. It being 3 storeys seems to add to the difficulties. It is an old house with a beautiful open plan wooden staircase, this is the only obvious means of exit. Does this present insurmountable problems (i.e. is a second staircase a definite requirement).
2. Related to the above. If we did not let out any rooms on the second floor, and we lived in them, would the issue of number of exits go away.
3. Simple statements in the guidelines seem to have big implications, e.g. that doors in the exit route should open in the direction of escape. Every door in the route from a bedroom to the outside opens in the normal way - against the direction of escape - the bedroom door, the door to the hall, and finally the front door to the outside open inwards.
4. As stated it is a beautiful old house, which is one of the reasons for wanting to buy it. Will we need emergency lighting and the running man signs everywhere spoiling the building.
5. The house has wood burning and open fires, which I suspect are a high risk.
6. Any thoughts on whether you would persue the purchase or look for something different.
7. Should I steer clear of 3+ storey houses (when I've stayed in B & B in the Lake District (Keswick, Ambleside) all of them have been of a similar type 3+ storeys. old houses, etc. will they all have to change.
8. Is 1 stair case adequate in a 2 storey house.
Thanks in advance,
Ig
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Hi,
This is my first post so please be lenient if I break any rules.
I always had the plan to get out of my office job, move to the country and run a small scale bed & breakfast just to pay the bills and keep me in bike and hill walking kit. Me and my wife decided that this was the year to go for it.
We have found a lovely house which we thought would fit the bill. It is not a B & B at the moment. It is 3 storey with 5 bedrooms, We have not decided whether we would let out 4 or 3 rooms (depends if we can get showers in all the rooms).
We have been getting all the boxes ticked before comitting to buy - arranging mortgage, quote from plumber for extra toilets, etc., then I googled 'fire regulations B & B', and saw my dream go up in flames.
It pointed me to the 147 page 'Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Sleeping Accommodation' tome. After reading this - I'm confused, and realise that if I'm going to get into B & B, I'm going to need to get expert advice.
I stumbled on this site, so thought I'd chance my arm for some quick thoughts. I've done the search thing and found a number of related threads, which added to my confusion and confirmed to me that I will need to get help.
So a few quick questions, which will help me decide if I should persue this house and what to look for in future:
1. It being 3 storeys seems to add to the difficulties. It is an old house with a beautiful open plan wooden staircase, this is the only obvious means of exit. Does this present insurmountable problems (i.e. is a second staircase a definite requirement).
2. Related to the above. If we did not let out any rooms on the second floor, and we lived in them, would the issue of number of exits go away.
3. Simple statements in the guidelines seem to have big implications, e.g. that doors in the exit route should open in the direction of escape. Every door in the route from a bedroom to the outside opens in the normal way - against the direction of escape - the bedroom door, the door to the hall, and finally the front door to the outside open inwards.
4. As stated it is a beautiful old house, which is one of the reasons for wanting to buy it. Will we need emergency lighting and the running man signs everywhere spoiling the building.
5. The house has wood burning and open fires, which I suspect are a high risk.
6. Any thoughts on whether you would persue the purchase or look for something different.
7. Should I steer clear of 3+ storey houses (when I've stayed in B & B in the Lake District (Keswick, Ambleside) all of them have been of a similar type 3+ storeys. old houses, etc. will they all have to change.
8. Is 1 stair case adequate in a 2 storey house.
Thanks in advance,
Ig
Best thing to do at this stage is to get someone in to have a look and see if your issues can be resolved. It should be understood that it is or was a private family dwelling and now you want to turn it into a commercial enterprize. There are always resolutions but the problem is they may be a little expensive or maybe not.
You won't know until someone has a look.
I can't help you as I'm on the other side of the Irish Sea but someone else reading this will advise you.
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Welcome to the forum Ig. There should be no reason why you cannot live your dream but first we have to ask a number of tiresome questions in order to advise you. The Regulatory Reform (fire safety) Order 2005 directly covers many smaller B&Bs that we have all stayed in in the past- those with 6 or less beds for guests that were not subject to the Fire Precautions Act and sat on the fringes of fire safety legislation. Most of the fire authorities recognise this and are targetting this sector as a priority for audit in the near future.
One of the problems with the guides are that those diagrams which were intended to be for guidance to illustrate a point are fast becoming treated as the only acceptable blueprint for design and many buildings dont look anything like those diagrams.
To go down your list,
1- you are right- a three storey building is a much higher risk than a 2 storey building because it hurts a lot more if you jump out of the window, and you have further to travel to reach the exit internally. An open plan stair can be a problem especially if it is not continuous through the building- two seperate flights in different locations. If you have a simple sketch plan you could email across would be happy to take a look. Otherwise how open plan is it? How many rooms is it directly exposed to? Is there any chance of seperating the flight from those rooms? Does it discharge near the entrance door on the ground floor? an it be protected in any way- by one or more strategic partitions and doors, and upgrading doors to other rooms?
2- A single protected route is the goal, if you cannot achieve this then two alternative less well protected routes may be a solution. if you use the top floor as your private dwelling it means there are less rooms that need to be protected for the benefit of the guests so becomes a smaller problem, if you are happy with that arrangements.
3- Dont worry about direction of opening- its not a problem for less than 30-50 people.
4- emergency lighting over the main escape routes - yes- but this can be very cheap or very elegant and any anywhere between the two. Smallest places may even provide torches in every room. Running man- no. You show all guests the layout on arrival and provide a fire information sheet in their room.
5- open fires are ok provided they are safely used, regularly swept, guarded, supervised and damped down by the owner who has to go to bed last.
6- send me a sketch plan or photo. Depends on the scale of the problem- and the attitiude of the fire authority in your area. Some are fairly laid back and will accept a domestic house standard for the smallest B&Bs- eg window exits from first floor- up to 4.5 m above the ground. Most take the view that as a business you should provide guests with a protected escape route.As an insurance before committing to buy I would scribble a sketch of the building, show what you propose to do and ask the local fire officer if they are ok with it.
7- yes they are all subject to the Law but how quickly they wake up to it depends on politics and the attitude of their fire service. There are huge implications for many small operators, in some areas the fire authorities are likely to be reactive- ie not inspect or enforce until something goes wrong or they receive a complaint, in the peak district they are expecting to take a proactive stance and go knocking on doors armed with the list fom the tourist information centre.
8- Its more about the layout and escape routes rather than height. One of my clients in a farmhouse B&B came to me last summer when the fire service issued a prohibition from a first floor guest bedroom.
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Thanks for the quick and helpful responses. It doesn't look as bleak as I first thought.
I realise that I need to get things right, but major rework [fire escapes, etc] would be beyond my budget.
Kurnal: Thanks for the offer of having a quick look. I have emailed you a link to the estate agents page with the house detials. You can click on a floor plan, which is better than any sketch I could send you. Your comments would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to waste the sellers (or my) time if the are potential major (read costly) issues that make our plan a non-starter.
If this house falls through I now know to ask to see the risk assessment of any future B & B's we are interested in.
Thanks again.
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Thanks for the quick and helpful responses. It doesn't look as bleak as I first thought.
I realise that I need to get things right, but major rework [fire escapes, etc] would be beyond my budget.
Kurnal: Thanks for the offer of having a quick look. I have emailed you a link to the estate agents page with the house detials. You can click on a floor plan, which is better than any sketch I could send you. Your comments would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to waste the sellers (or my) time if the are potential major (read costly) issues that make our plan a non-starter.
If this house falls through I now know to ask to see the risk assessment of any future B & B's we are interested in.
Thanks again.
Certainly ask to see the risk assessment, there is a statutory requirement for B&Bs to have one, but ensure that any significant findings have been addressed. If there is no Risk Assessment tread carefully. The absence of one does not neccessarily mean there is a problem with the building. If there is one establish who the Risk Assessor was and check out his/her credentials and history.
Be careful of someone trying to get rid of a problem building.
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Hi Ig
Thanks for the email. It all looks good to me.
The property, being in Scotland, is subject to the Fire (Scotland) Act and not the English version of the legislation. There is similar free guidance available from the Scottish Parliament website- I will google it and place a link in a later posting.
The good news is that actually the layout is fine- the staircase separated from all rooms and rises in a very spacious hallway, in a continuous shaft. Provided you are careful to keep the stairway clear of combustible materials such as upholsterd furniture, large drapes, electrical appliances- the existing contents in the picture look fine- you wont have a problem.
You should plan to take a good look at the doors to all rooms and where possible upgrade them to give as good a fire performance as can be achieved- they appear to be antique pine panelled doors. Take a look at envirograf products- safelincs do them- varnishes, fire resisting veneers and fire door seals which subject to the thickness of the door may be suitable to upgrade without altering their visual appearance. Fit self closers ( concealed ones are available).
Then you need to look at fire alarm and detection of fire. Budget for a fire alarm system to BS5839 part 1 2002 system type L2. This means smoke detectors in the staircase and all rooms, heat in the kitchen. Shop round for several quotes - I am sure that some of the guys who regularly post on the technical branch of this forum would give you an indication of what this will cost if you send them the excellent info you sent me.
In the event that wiring is a problem, radio linked systems are available and I dont think anyone would be too concerned if you installed a system of mains powered radio linked domestic detectors to BS5839 part 6 Grade D LD1.
Escape lighting will be needed in the staircase to BS5266 part 1 2004 and you will probably need 4 units - prices start at about £14 plus installation - again take a look at safelincs to see whats available.
Put a fire blanket in the kitchen and I would consider a 13A rated fire extinguisher in the entrance lobby- say a small 3 Litre water with additives or a 6 litres foam spray.
Put together a fire safety procedure to cater for your open fires and info for guests including a walkthough on arrival and that should do the job.
Come back anytime if you need any further advice and good luck.
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Do you charge for those desk based risk assessments Kurnal? ;)
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Hi Civvy - no charge and no CO2 footprint.
And very often no thanks either !!!
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Thanks Kurnal. :)
I'm re-reading the guidlines in a bit more detail. I may come back with more questions!!!
Do you think this legislation will stick as the cost implications and in some cases the praticalities could be very onerous for a small B & B establishment.
As a layman and practical person I can't see the logic of as soon as you charge someone to sleep in your house you have to install a fire safety system that they would not dream of installing in their own house.
I could have a dozen of my own kids and an infirm granny living in my house without so much as a smoke alrm fitted, but have just me and one paying guest and all the regulations kick in. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying the first scenario is sensible or one that I would advocate, just that there seems to be a big disconnect in the thinking.
Mutters to self and goes away to re-read the regulations.
Ig
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Thanks Kurnal. :)
I'm re-reading the guidlines in a bit more detail. I may come back with more questions!!!
Do you think this legislation will stick as the cost implications and in some cases the praticalities could be very onerous for a small B & B establishment.
As a layman and practical person I can't see the logic of as soon as you charge someone to sleep in your house you have to install a fire safety system that they would not dream of installing in their own house.
I could have a dozen of my own kids and an infirm granny living in my house without so much as a smoke alrm fitted, but have just me and one paying guest and all the regulations kick in. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying the first scenario is sensible or one that I would advocate, just that there seems to be a big disconnect in the thinking.
Mutters to self and goes away to re-read the regulations.
Ig
Public safety.
People are dying in their private homes from fire because it is their castle and generally they can do what they want in it. People arn,t dying so much in B&Bs, hotels etc because of fire regulations.
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Your very welcome Ig.
Its no different to any other aspect of Health and Safety legislation. It all comes from the foundations of stable door legislations that started in 1805 with the Health and Morals of Apprentices Act. If you had a spinning frame in your home you could send your children into the machinery to keep it clean but damn me if it was in a factory you had to put guard rails in or stop the machinery. The careless kids kept getting entangled and spilling their blood on the yarn, spoiling it.
Many disasters and accidents in all aspects of life led to legislation to make sure it never happened again. In the sixties many people died in hotels so the law was changed - it was no longer considered acceptable if paying someone for a bed for the night to have to jump out of the window - but if you are ok with it in your own home nobody's gonna bother you.
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These are important observations Ig, all UK safety legislation and especially fire safety legislation is reactive, people die, an inquiry is held and the law changes. So, as has been said, you and your family can legally do what you like in your own home (well maybe only until Social Services decide the kids are at risk and take them away), but a paying guest?
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all UK safety legislation and especially fire safety legislation is reactive, people die, an inquiry is held and the law changes
I would dispute this. Who's death resulted in the implimentation of the The Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992?
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Thanks Kurnal. :)
I'm re-reading the guidlines in a bit more detail. I may come back with more questions!!!
Do you think this legislation will stick as the cost implications and in some cases the praticalities could be very onerous for a small B & B establishment.
As a layman and practical person I can't see the logic of as soon as you charge someone to sleep in your house you have to install a fire safety system that they would not dream of installing in their own house.
I could have a dozen of my own kids and an infirm granny living in my house without so much as a smoke alrm fitted, but have just me and one paying guest and all the regulations kick in. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying the first scenario is sensible or one that I would advocate, just that there seems to be a big disconnect in the thinking.
Mutters to self and goes away to re-read the regulations.
Ig
HI IG
I see where you are coming from, and this has long been an argument amongst small B&B owners.
But lets face facts.... none of us here would want to go on holiday and die in a blaze.
The other fact is that in your own home you will tend to have people visiting and stopping over who you know fairly well. You won't however know your B&B guests quite so intimately. What if a guests gets drunk ,decides to smoke in bed, falls asleep and starts a fire?
The view is that you are getting a wage for letting out the rooms, you are therefore running a business, and your business should be appropriately safe for all that use it.
I know the thought of fire precautions sounds quite costly at this stage, but there are two distinct advantages of putting in fire precautions from the word go:-
1) It will keep you out of prison and / or atleast ensures you won't be paying hefty court fines if someone is injured or worse in your B&B
2) it will help protect your business - most businesses never recover after a fire. With the right precautions implemeneted you won't only be protecting life you will be protecting your investment / home.
You might find there's some reduction to be had with your building insurance policies too.
On a final note i think its only fair that you allow us all to stop at your B&B free of charge for all the sterling advice we've given you :)
Like Kurnal said, its not all doom and gloom and once youre over the initial cost of implementing the precautions required there are only maintenance costs to think of thereafter.
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all UK safety legislation and especially fire safety legislation is reactive, people die, an inquiry is held and the law changes
I would dispute this. Who's death resulted in the implimentation of the The Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992?
Chris.
I think you are being too pedantic. We can all agree that Health, Safety and Welfare Legislation is put in place for all of those reasons.
I understand completely where you are coming from Afterburner and you are correct, pedanticisation (is there such a word?) removed.
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You are entitled to your opinion as much as the next bloke. But the statement that all health and safety legislation is implimented only after deaths have occued is frankly wrong. I don't think that pointing this out makes me pedantic. I could list plenty other decent and beneficial pieces of legislation that have not been rushed through in a stable door manner.
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I've poured over the guidelines with renewed vigour and have a few questions:
1. How do I know whether the floors and walls are 30 minute rated. It is an old house so won't have been built to modern building regulations. Do I have to make holes and check the construction.
2. The doors are old solid wooden ones. They won't be 'certified', but are there any guidelines that say what the ratings of various thicknesses of wooden doors are, or are old solid wooden doors just not allowed.
3. Do I need a call point on each floor.
If I manage to buy the house I will do everything properly and in line with the regulations, but can't help but keep the friendly and interesting debate going:
Has anyone got any casualty, injury, incident statistics for b & b's with less than 6 guests, which were not covered under the old regulations, that would justify/explain bringing them under the new regulations. I'd be interrested to see how they compared with private houses, and larger b & b's that were covered by the previous regulations.
Midland Retty: I agree, it would be rude not to offer some inducement. So............ an extra rasher of bacon at breakfast on production of a passport confirming your forum indentity. :-)
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Oak is good. Very good. much better than pine. much slower burn rate. how thick is it? are they panel doors or ledged and braced?
Are they a good fit not warped etc?
I will email you a document about historic doors and fire resistance.
Fire alarm call point on each floor- yes if following the letter of the BS5839 part 1, but really in a place this small I would probably install one at the ground floor only- record this as a variation on the commissioning certificate. Indeed you would get away with a grade D LD1 system without manual call points and provide a Rank style gong to double as a fire alarm and to let MR know his bacon is ready.
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For those of us who were not part of your e-mail discussions, where in Scotland is your proposed B&B? (this is simple curiousity and has nothing to with complying with standards).
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Afterburner: The house we are looking at is in Dumfries & Galloway, 15 miles outside Dumfries. We like the area - I'm into mountain biking and walking - and the houses 'seem' realistically priced. We are struggling a bit with the Scottish system where the price the sellers want is a secret!!!! We just hope there is a market for a small, good quality B & B.
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Ig, there is always room in the market for a small good qulaity B&B. Your attention to fire safety details points to the quality you intend achieving. Once you're sorted out I will head your way with my walking group and a Forum ID Card!
as for the Scottish slant on compliance head for www.infoscotland.com/firelaw and click onto the downloads for Sector Specific Guides and you'll find one for smaller sleepiong premises. I know it's a bit of a tome but it has excellent advice there too.
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Hi
I am new to this forum and trying to assess the requirements for my own 3 storey bed and breakfast.
1. Am I right that if no guests sleep on the second storey that floor does not have to have fire alarms.
2. If there are only 3 bed and breakfast rooms, all on the first floor, is the house a "large bed and breakfast" or a "small bed and breakfast"
3. If its a "small bed and breakfast" how do you decide if its Grade D LD2 or Grade D LD3.
Thanks
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1-no. Even a bungalow used for sleeping accommodation needs a suitable alarm system
2- probably a small B&B
3- Other fire safety factors- the layout, protection to the staircase, travel distance from bedrooms to final exit the standard of doors, any areas of high risk, type of heating system all have a bearing. Most likely to need LD2 as LD3 is just detection in escape route, not really good enough except for the very smallest of places that are exssentially someones home with a guest room.
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Hi Kurnal,
Thank you for your reply and advice
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Thanks Kurnal. :)
I'm re-reading the guidlines in a bit more detail. I may come back with more questions!!!
Do you think this legislation will stick as the cost implications and in some cases the praticalities could be very onerous for a small B & B establishment.
As a layman and practical person I can't see the logic of as soon as you charge someone to sleep in your house you have to install a fire safety system that they would not dream of installing in their own house.
I could have a dozen of my own kids and an infirm granny living in my house without so much as a smoke alrm fitted, but have just me and one paying guest and all the regulations kick in. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying the first scenario is sensible or one that I would advocate, just that there seems to be a big disconnect in the thinking.
Mutters to self and goes away to re-read the regulations.
Ig
Ig,
You have had some excellent free advice on this forum, as already stated, you may do as you wish, (within reason), in your own house, but once you start up a business with public access there are regulations to be adhered to, would you let your children go on a school trip to a seedy hostel with scant regard to fire safety, I think not, there are standards on public safety for a reason, please dont view it as red tape to hinder the private sector.
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kurnal wrote:
"4- emergency lighting over the main escape routes - yes- but this can be very cheap or very elegant and any anywhere between the two. Smallest places may even provide torches in every room. Running man- no. You show all guests the layout on arrival and provide a fire information sheet in their room. "
For a bed and breakfast which lets 3 room how can you decide if a torch in each room is sufficient.
Thank
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I usually make a jdgement whether the premises are a private house with a let room or two- chocolate box cottage scenario- or a small hotel business. Things that inform that judgement are the nature, layout, character, how it is used, how it is supervised, whether the exit droutes are simple or whether persons may need a torch anyway once they get outside- eg heart of the country.
The text book answer is emergency escape lighting in escape routes and staircases to BS5266 prices start at £12.50 plus VAT- tale a look at safelincs.
I may relax that standard if my judgement says it is appropriate. But dont forget my judgement as a risk assessor is only that and there is no guarantee that the fire authority will agree and the judge if it came to that. The fire service usually accept a well reasoned case but sometimes we disagree- then they usually win!!
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Hi Kurnal,
Thanks for your help.
Regards
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Ig i'm going along with the majority here you seem to at least want to comply & have looked at the law which is more than a lot of people who are already in business ever seem to do. The difference between what you do at home though compared to your B&B is that you are taking money from people which gives them the right to expect the premises to be safe & that is the difference!
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Can anyone answer this question? What are the statistics for fires and injury/fatalities in the UK for B&Bs in recent years?
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Can anyone answer this question? What are the statistics for fires and injury/fatalities in the UK for B&Bs in recent years?
You may have to search the CLG website for the UK fire statistics, which are published annually, the most recent ones I have seen myself are for 2004.