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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Steve Mc Queen on September 16, 2004, 12:54:15 PM
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When in a job you reach your Whistle time (according to the B.A. Board) and you still have a reading of say 120 bar, Is it permissable to stay in the job as long as you have radio contact with BAECO.
I have been told this is the case,as it would be a waste of air to come out of the job with a half full cylinder. Although I understand this, I don't see how the BAECO can be in control of his board, if the wearers are making up their own working limits.
Any guidance appreciated.
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Is your query based on actual experience of this occurring or is it seeking clarification of a hypothetical situation based on an anomoly within the TB.
Either way if i were OiC or ECO I would insist on your withdrawal. For the wearer to go beyond their t.o.w the ECO no longer has complete control over the details on the board. Therefore in spite of the possibilty of the wearer staying in there is the possibility for confusion on the part of the ECO.
IF IN DOUBT GET THEM OUT. :shock: :shock:
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Ba wearers should be back at BA control before the whistle sounds, all timings must be by the BAECO. Duration tables are worked out at a person walking at 4 miles/hour so the chances of the BAECO's time of whistle being before the wearers actual whistle activation are slim unless of course the wearer is not doing any work! All BA wearers as a matter of good practise and training should be aware of their durations and their available time to continue and this will vary from person to person e.g. lung capacity, physical exertion, distance from control and other factors.
This sounds like a very poor and dangerous practise.
Gio :o
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I understand how the t.o.w is worked out, but on many occasions(mainly during drills,with small work loads) wearers reach their t.o.w. with plenty of air remaining.
It is in these situations where the only indication a wearer has of his work duration is his contents gauge, if he is doing little work, it is easy for him to pass his t.o.w. without him knowing (gauge still reading high due to low work rate). If b.a.e.c.o.contacts him via radio and informs him he should be out, say in 5 mins and he has 120 bar remaining is he permitted to stay in the job untill his air is approching actual whistle time?
I have been told that this is acceptable, I find that difficult to agree with and am of the opinon that it leads to b.a.e.c.o having no control over his wearers.
As far as I canm see this is not covered in 1/97
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I was told during basic; that if the BA team leader is contacted by the ECO. He can/should make an assessment of the workload; check his team member’s gauge reading and then make a decision whether to continue the task or withdraw.
During a training drill on station, we had a situation where this was put in the scenario and consequently the experienced ECO got a little bit annoyed when his request to withdraw was ignored by a less experienced guy. The up shot was, training were contacted and they said the BA team leader was right, but the ECO should always remind them they were reaching the time of whistle.
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:D
New technology, i.e. telemetry, might make this thread redundant as the new Draeger system updates whistle times according to wearer breathing rates.Damned clever stuff, what?
Might even result in a revised 1/97.
:D
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pugh
Are any Brigades using this eqt yet? or is it still being developed?
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http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/UK/en/Industries/Fire/Operations/Monitoring/PSS_Merlin/op_pss_merlin.jsp
Draeger Merlin is already out there, been in plenty of FRS magazines too. I believe that it is in use at a couple of UK FRS and plans for some more soon. I am not sure but I think N.I. are using it............
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It's nice to know that your BAECO is watching out for you, however, "If" you are in radio contact with the BAECO and you can let him know what's going on inside then there should be no problem and you should carry on with your task. Ideally, you should be coming out of the job with 55 bar (+/- 5 bar) irrespective of the time.
The problems start to arise when your BAECO cannot get hold you and you are at your 'Time of whistle' on the BA board. Then he has to make a decision.
Personally, if I was the ECO and 'my team' did'nt come out at the time of whistle (according to the BA board) and I couldnt get hold of them via radio or any other means- I would instigate a BA EMERGENCY. Send in the emergency teams, inform the OIC and inform Brigade Control. Brigade Control will then send reinforcements and Officers. It's a big responsibility for the BAECO ( he might even be inexperienced regarding ECO's duties or 'the new boy') and it takes a brave man to call a BA Emergency-But hey.....They're our mates in there..Let's air on the side of caution, sod the consequences regarding instigating a BA Emergency and look after our own....You may get a bollocking for getting an officer out of bed at 2 in the morning but at least you DID THE RIGHT THING- to make sure that your mates are safe and that they are going home to their families in the back of the big red truck with you & their 'friends'.
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I can believe I am reading this!!!!
The TOW is your safety margin, you should never eat into this unless you are having a problem.
Steve McQueen I hate to suggest but is some one pulling your leg here. If you are instructed to work beyond your TOW is if pure negligent on the part of the OIC and you should never agree to do so. Your life and safety are the most important thing at all times.
Simon
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Here, here. Erosion of safety standards in this manner only feeds a generic management culture that would happily acknowledge the risk of an employee dying in a situation that might otherwise be preventable through investment in BA telemetry or enhanced training for those who believe such dangerous practices to be acceptable. Other Ffs have died in the past and the net gain of their deaths were BA control procedures, low pressure warning devices, fire behaviour training, ppv etc etc. Respect those who have gone before us and use the procedures and equipment in the manner they were intended for. To fail to do so is to say that Firefighters in the past have died in vain and the lessons learnt have either fell on deaf ears or long since been forgotten.
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40lPm is the average rate of oxygen used in the time of work by a fit individual. Some use more some less. But consider your crew you maybe on 120bar what does the rest of the crew read. I personally think that the standard of reenering a building of no less less than 80% of max capacicity ie 200bar entering at 160bar is about right - except under exceptional circumstances.
Use commonsence as well as procedure time recal is
Fire032 and burgermuncher999 is correct use commonsence, experiance and instintic as a guide.
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i think everyone is confused by the use of t.o.w i hope that what steve is actually talking about is his turnround time which is something completely differant .
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I have recently been in some disagreement with trainers over the TOW and turn round times. It appears that the teaching in BAI courses is that it is good air management to return to the BAECO with just over the safety margin pressure (60 bar as 55bar cannot be used - rounding up). They also state that if the whistle goes off before they get to the BA set off, but outside then they have done well. I have got to a slight compromise in that they accept that this is alright, but on the basis that 'you got away with it this time'. My opinion is that you should turn round once you have used half the available air for that wear, with riska assessment applied:
Thus 280 bar on entry, deduct 60 bar leaving 220 bar to wear. 110 to use on the way in and 110 on the way out. Thus turn round is the 110 plus the 60 safety giving 170. The smae for other readings but if the half is a figure ending in 5 round up the amount to come out with for safety (270 minus 60 = 210 /2 = 105 add 60 back in = 165 then round up to 170 gving turn round). This should be adjusted by the team if they have been using excessive exertion on the way in, for example hauling hose, and thus would use much less air on the way back. However, I beleive that the over riding principle should be to exit the building with more air not less and that being at, in, or even close to the safety margin is acting in a potentially unsafe manner.
Comments please and what about from BAIs/policy writers?
Maybe a consensus and a policy may appear form this discussion
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As a trainer i do agree that it is good practice for wearers to make use of as much of their working duration as is safely possible. This will greatly enhance their ability to carry out their brief effectively and reduce the number of personnel required to act as reliefs for crews who might exit the risk with a good per centage of the working duration still in the cylinder.
Common sense and not maths is what needs to be applied.
If a Firefighter enters a house fire with 200 bar then by the book their turnaround would be at 130 bar. Should they therefore come out of the risk if they are in the ground floor living room only 40 ft from the ECB and are familiar with the route to exit. I would say not. Provided they are confident in their ability to exit the building by the time of whistle i would say stay in and exit at a time when you deem it appropriate bearing in mind they MUST reach the board prior to actuation of whistle.
The use of PPV greatly enhances conditions of visibility and as such with PPV in use and the building ventilated i think it ridiculous for any crew to exit at the turnaround time when the travel time to the front door from any point in a standard 3 bed domestic may be as little as 3 mins. In this case they could turnaround at 130 on the 1st floor and be back at the board with 120 bar still in the cylinder.
I won't say they ain't playing it by the book but in doing so they are also failing to apply a degree of common sense and are reducing the effectiveness and efficiency of the OiC's available resources.
Turnaround time becomes more important in relation to deep penetration into a building which is unventilated and the risk of physical exertion and disorientation is present. In this case i would say start exiting at or about your turnaround time and be back to the board prior to actuation of whistle. However i would still say that to return to a board under such circumstances with too much air is not good practice.
Opinions will vary but i think 80 bar upon return to the board is a good practical figure. Others might disagree and i too am interested in hearing more.
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BM999
I agree, around 80 bar would suggest a good level of safety built in, and as I said apply risk assessment. The example you gave of the use of common sense is just that - after all RA is actually common sense. The over riding principles should be:
You should ensure that you return to fresh air so that your safety margin is untouched
You should utilise the air to the maximum benefit - using your DRA to determine the turnaround time.
The 'use half the air available' is only a guide. There is no normal job, though, so this is merely a recommendation on which to base your DRA and decisions that fall from it.
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Firetrm.
The only point i would add is that it can be all too easy for trainers to cover their arse by disregarding their practical experience upon entering training dept. What then occurs is that some can inadvertently regard the 'book' as the bible forgetting that the book was in fact derived from the lessons learnt in the real world. Where fairly inexperienced individuals are promoted into training as some form of development process what you can end up with is a situation where some rely on what is contained within 'the book' as opposed to having a degree of actual workplace experience with which to balance the theory against practice. All i can say Firetrm is fight the good fight and continue to balance what you are given by the training dept against what you know to be real on the fireground.
Keep it real - keep it safe.
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Absolutely.
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The time of whistle is totally irrelevant to the BA wearer. He/She has no idea of time during an incident.
Good wear planning is essential, ie; regular guage checks and following all recognised procedures.
If going in to a "normal" 3 bed semi with 200/190 bar then you can safely say that the likely hood of them staying in that building for their whole working duration is very unlikely.(unless its going like a train!)
If however the building is bigger and more complex then wear planning becomes an even greater necessity.
Before door openings guage check, change of levels guage check, finding casualties guage check.
All personel should in training excersises be practising honing this skill of wear planning.
Also in an earlier thread the ECO was mentioned perhaps being "the new boy", personally the responsibilties for an ECO can be more important than the BA teams. We should try and get away from this thought process that the job of Entry Control is a menial task at an incident.
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If this is todays' subject then I have come in at the right time. I am a BAI and I've just got home after running a BA guideline drill.
I totally agree with the over-riding comment above that those that have gone before and tragically in some cases lost their lives, have been significant contributors to the procedures and equipment we use today and we shouldn't forget that or allow ourselves as individuals, regardless of the policies of the organisations we work for, forget that solemn fact.
With regard to turn round times; at today's exercise this issue was raised by the two members of the third team to enter. They were engaged in a methodical search using 6m personal line working off a pre-laid main guideline. Due to the complex layout of the smoke-logged structure being used it was a painfully slow process and by the time they had covered just twenty metres longitudally off the guideline the number two in the team was concerned that his cylinder contents were at the level when he would normally be expecting to turn around and head out. He was within 10 bar of the team leaders contents who took the decision to continue with the search pattern much to the disgruntlement of his number two.
During debrief the issue was raised again and I could only praise the team leader for considering that yes, you might normally consider turning around at the point the number two indicated but the pragmatics of the task they were engaged in meant that turning around, traversing the guideline back twenty metres to the EP would barely use a third of the air consumed during the methodical progress in to the structure.
However they were out before TOW and I wouldn't have been impressed with the ECO or the team leader if they weren't. As stated before the problem with TOW is that the BA team can't measure this and if they don't have telemetry or reliable radio comms (so far in this job I've never experienced consistently reliable radio comms?) there's no way of knowing or being advised by the ECO. In this case there's only one call the ECO can make if playing by the rules; rules born from the loss of firefighters past.