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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: A J on February 21, 2008, 12:46:39 PM
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Hi All,
What would be your opinion on emergency lighting in a holiday let.
The premises is a recently converted barn (3000sq feet), mostly open plan with 5 bedrooms and a upper floor sitting room and bedroom.
All ground floor bedrooms have their own patio door for egress and the premises is fitted with mains smoke/heat detectors.
Would I be correct in thinking that because of the ammount of exits and the use of the building (seasonal) they could have torches by the exits rather than fitting an electrical emergency lighting system?
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I think that would be acceptable, but you would have to make sure the batteries were ok.
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I recently visited a holiday let where a torch was fitted at the top of the stairs. Agreed it was a more traditional layout than the one described above.
Argos do a great one that fits into a plug socket at 9.99. It even turns on automatically on a mains failure. ideal for this situation.
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Thank you for your input Jokar and dave, someone has informed me that it is possible to buy wind up torches, anyone familiar with these or is it just a wind up?
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You can also get torches that you shake to charge them , another bonus for all you cocktail lovers.
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The wind up torches are LED based and have an internal battery which you charge by turning the handle- I have one its great and just the job for what you have in mind. In fact I take it round with me to show holiday cottage owners.
In the right circumstances a torch is much more flexible than a fixed emergency lighting unit- especially where its pitch dark outside in the country. But I stress its horses for courses- for example one cottage had a spiral stair for which I suggested a fixed unit.
The number of rooms, layout and size of building, whether its likley to be one family or multiple families sharing a cottage are all factors to consider when choosing a solution, deciding how many and where to site them.
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I have a dynamo torch in the cupboard where my electrical fuse board is, there is a switch on the top to turn it on and off and a small lever which is squeezed in to the body of the torch to give it power. It's great if the lights go out and I can use it immediately without worrying about batteries or snapping off the winding handle in the dark
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Someone has informed me that it is possible to buy wind up torches, anyone familiar with these or is it just a wind up?
They are available but they are more of a novelty and not suitable for your purpose the plug in type is a better option.
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here you go mate, have a look here
http://www.towsure.com/category/6906-Hand_Torches
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Mines a Trevor Bayliss and its excellent. I spent 5 minutes winding it up about 6 weeks ago and its still giving good light. Use it to find my way to the car in the dark of the peak district.
The squeeze ones are more of a novelty in my opinion
http://www.windup-products.com/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=24
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Well what a response!
Thanks to all who have posted, I now have plenty of options to think over,
As usual, you have all been brilliant!!
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I accept I was a little dismissive of wind up torches but main concern was how you find them in the dark especially when you are a stranger to the property. The plug in torch described by Dinnertime Dave turns on automatically on a mains failure.
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true - you need a torch to find the torch!
sticking a strip of photoluminescent tape would help, but only if sited in a location that is always normally lit in order to keep the tape 'charged'
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give them a box of matches - is all this really necessary in what is essentially just a house????????
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Hang them on a hook next to the bedroom door. People seem to be able to find light switches in the dark without difficulty.
I agree Wee B sometimes we worry too much. But holiday cottages can be shared by more than one family.
Horror of horrors- in some cottages if I find a key operated lock on the front door I dont recommend it be replaced automatically- but in some circumstances would recommend a hook for the key, a spare key with a fob bigger than pocket size and a torch hanging from the same hook.
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The only thing I'll say about torches is that kids love them. Maybe if required, mount it in some kind of alarmed box.
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I think that the torches recomended by dinnertime Dave are an exellent idea, simple yet effective and user friendly in this situation where in an unfamiliar envionment and in "holiday mode" people can easily find a light source and therefore dispel panic. Also once outside the building you can see other persons. The property in question is in rural Norfolk which at the best of times is severly lacking in borrowed light!
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Next thing youre gonna tell me that the guests get a training session on the way the torch works!
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Wee Brian-Who are your comments directed at or is it general? Or are you just venting your spleen.
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When you've got a spleen like mine, it needs regular venting.
I just think we are all getting a bit carried away with this. I really dont see that emergency lighting in any form is justified in a Holiday let that is in all other respects a single family house. Its all getting very disproportionate.
This is the problem of applying risk assesment without any clear national benchmarks. We are all going to come to very different conclusions.
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At a meeting between representatives of the Welsh Assembly, the three Wales Fire & Rescue Services and the tourist body Visit Wales in June 2007 the recomendation for emergency lighting in self catering accomodation is;
In hall and landing, generally integral with the smoke detectors though other types may be acceptable. (Should conform to BS 5266 Part 1 2005)
Wales FRS consider self catering apartments and cottages as businesses for the purpose of enforcing the RRO, this view is supported by counsel's opinion obtained by the F&RS
http://new.wales.gov.uk/docrepos/40382/4038231141/403821124154/1616854/1616923?lang=cy
The above will take you to the document
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In addition the English Tourist Board will not offer gradings for holiday lets unless there is a writtten risk assessment. They are gold plating the legislation- as a written assessment is not normally needed under the Fire Safety Order. But if they want the grading they have to comply.
Now under these terms if asked to provide a risk assessment for people staying in a strange house or one shared with others I think some reasonable provision is appropriate Wee B. I can find my way round my own home in the dark- but when the kids have friends sleeping over or in strange surroundings I am more likely to fall or bump into things.
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Kurnal, I agree not always is a written assessment required but I always recommend that something is put into writing as a back covering exercise just incase Joe public decieds to sue when things go wrong. I for one would not like to be in the dock and trying to explain that the risk assessment was undertaken but its in my head.
Even as a serving FSO on inspections I always suggested that any risk assessment should be recorded for the reasons above
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wee brian - I agree fully with your last paragraph and without an inspection of the property I would be unable to decide if emergency lighting in any form is justified.
But comparing the holiday let with a single family house in my opinion is not relevant. In domestic premises the level of fire safety is up to the head of the household and if s/he chooses to accept low standards then it’s on their consciences. Also the layout of the premise is familiar to all the family.
In a holiday let then you should expect a higher standard of fire safety. Because you are paying good money to stay there and you are likely to be unfamiliar with the layout of the premises. Also the owner has a duty of care, if a fire was to break out you should expect to be reasonable safe also you have little or no control over the standards in the premises consequently the owner has a moral obligation as well.
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The fact that the Welsh all think its necessary just convinces me that is isnt.
I hear what you are saying TW there is a legal difference and even a slight difference in fire risk but I still aint buying it.
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As far as im concerned by providing a form of emergency lighting for paying visitors to this premises I have addressed the risk, and actioned a solution to reduce the risk. As kurnal & twsutton pointed out people in an unfamiliar premises need all the help they can get to assist them to find a way out, so you are also addressing general H&S (trip hazards ect) therefore for a small financial outlay you are providing a duty of care to your customers and have a new "get out of jail " card
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The holiday cottage me and the family stay at every year in Wales has luminous pads in each bedroom in which a dynamo torch is mounted. In the dark with the lights out you can see where the torch is.Im a big fan of dynamo torches and dont think it is a bad idea to mount them in each room in small premises. TW already mentioned they could get knicked which is a fair point but lets face it they cost peanuts. Im sorry but if you are making money from a holiday let it automatically becomes a business and you should be responsible for other peoples safety. You dont go on holiday and expect to be put at risk. Dynamo torches might be a simple and cost effective solution in some cases.
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Why have you guys all got it in for people making money - if the house is on fire i'm not going to mess about with a torch I'm just going to leave.
If I cant see the way out (easy to get lost in these little cottages you know) then a I wont be able to find the torch. Maybe put the luminous pad on the door!!!!
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Well yeah exactly Wee Brian... isn't that what Clevelandfire was talking about?
Im all for fire safety solutions which make practical and financial sense. You maybe ok seeing your way out in darkness, others may not though. We were given an intresting talk by someone who was partially sighted last week.
Until speaking to her I was totally ignorant to some of the problems partially or totally impaired persons have. And thats the problem. I hear loads of people saying " Im alright Jack" citing their own abilities as being sufficient to cope so why shouldn't anyone else's be.
Infact the luminous pad idea is great because Im sure the lady i mentioned above would be able to make out a light square on a dark background.
The only thing with luminous products is they only stay luminous for a set ammount of time. Some may need a good deal of natural or atirificial light to charge up. But I hear these products are improving all the time with luminous products which will last throughout the night on fairly minimal exposure to light.
You are bloomin ratty these days Wee Brian, Im worried about you, always such a nice chappie normally, whats gotten into you eh? has a nasty fire officer kicked you with his jack boots? are you in the dog house with the Missus? Come its friday!!!! :P
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So where do we keep the torch that we use to find the alarmed box housing the the other torch?
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So where do we keep the torch that we use to find the alarmed box housing the the other torch?
We don't squire !
Yer illuminous pad will enlighten you and show you the way... use the force redbadge use the force
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My apologies, I caught a bout of facetiousness after reading Wee Brians posts this morning!
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You are bloomin ratty these days Wee Brian, Im worried about you, always such a nice chappie normally, whats gotten into you eh? has a nasty fire officer kicked you with his jack boots? are you in the dog house with the Missus? Come its friday!!!! :P
I'm just losing faith in the way things are going.
I keep meeting people who are trying to make an honest living (hoteliers etc.) and they are being ask to provide more and more unnescessary fire protection. I feel it's bringing my profession into disrepute. For some reason a lot of people think that somebody running a B&B will have money coming out of their ears and just a few emergencyy lights, a new fire alarm, a smoke control system, sprinklers and an ejector bed are just chump change.
Sure we can all try and provide for every risk but if we don't whatch ourselves we will be issuing helmets in case of meteor strike.
To be honest if you really think lighting is necessary then fit an emrgency luminare. I cant think of a more stupid idea than fitting torches on the wall.
In an emergency, faffing about with a torch is a dangerous waste of time.
I cant imagine the partially sighted lady will be any better off in a smoke filled house with a torch in he hand. In fact she is probably more able to find her way out in the dark than I am.
But I do love you all and wish you a pleasant weekend.
Regards
WB
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Nah you have a fair point !
I respect your opinion and I love you too... infact being as it is a leap year.... and to show there are no hard feelings "will you marry me" Wee Brian? will you ?
Ive always "held a torch" for you 'WeeBee', though admittedly its currently mounted on a luminous pad in the bedroom cos my arm ached after a while!
Sorry its friday afternoon and Im bored and as ever the medication hasnt kicked in .... more prozac anyone?
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Nah you have a fair point !
I respect your opinion and I love you too... infact being as it is a leap year.... and to show there are no hard feelings "will you marry me" Wee Brian? will you ?
Ive always "held a torch" for you 'WeeBee', though admittedly its currently mounted on a luminous pad in the bedroom cos my arm ached after a while!
Sorry its friday afternoon and Im bored and as ever the medication hasnt kicked in .... more prozac anyone?
LOL!