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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Guest on October 01, 2004, 04:12:58 PM
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Has any one carried out a fire risk assessment of a church ?
If so i would be interested in comments regarding use of candles etc, public access to towers with only one narrow unprotected means of escape, fire alarms, emergency lighting, training etc. Also not only carrying out the assessment but have any of the recommendations been carried out, liasion with fire service, listed building etc?
If not, does anyone know where I could find some info.
Look forward to hearing from anyone, many thanks.
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At risk of sounding sarcastic - have you tried contacting the Church of England? One would expect they have done a few.
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At risk of sounding sarcastic - have you tried contacting the Church of England? One would expect they have done a few.
You are right, you do sound a little sarcastic, may be I will contact them if yours is the only response I get.
Thanks for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge, whilst responding do you have a contact at the Church of England head office ?
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At the risk of sounding realistic, what's the life risk?
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At risk of sounding sarcastic - have you tried contacting the Church of England? One would expect they have done a few.
You are right, you do sound a little sarcastic, may be I will contact them if yours is the only response I get.
Thanks for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge, whilst responding do you have a contact at the Church of England head office ?
Nope. ;)
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BCMurphy - I would have thought the risk to life was obvious? I am sorry i have not made it a simple request for info but if you had say 15 members of the public at the top of a tower with only one escape route and a fire started the ground floor, how would you get the people out ? My question is to professionals that have carried out assessments what have they done, restricted use, carried out upgrading and other contol measures etc.
At the risk of sounding ..........
:D
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Guest, I share everyones concerns regarding fire safety, I work in the healthcare sector, our life risk is very high and we have fire risk assessed everything in sight. I was an operational firefighter for 28 years in various spheres including Met brigades and smaller, I have inspected and granted licenses to fire services all over, so I know a bit about fire risk assessment. My problem with your question is that you are confusing fantastic probabilities with realistic possibilities, simple risk management solutions will sort out your problems, if people are in the tower and there's nobody in the main body of the church then the management of the church are in breach of Management Regulations, Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regs and loads of other stuff including H&S Act, but thats over 30 years old now and probably doesn't count(!). Ever heard of Building Regs and travel distances, what about compartments and dead end situations et al. Papal immunity is no defence in court as far as I am aware, but I'm willing to be correted on that.
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"Ever heard of Building Regs and travel distances, what about compartments and dead end situations""I have inspected and granted licenses to fire services all over",
BC Murphy - What vast experience you have, not that i am interested with that, other than what licences you issued to fire services all over.
If you are in the real world, building regs, compartments and deadends, in a church !, come on who are you kidding, and yet again you have not assessed a church which is what my original question refers too.
Thanks for your comments anyway.
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English Heritage produces an advisory note entitled 'Evacuation of visitors from cathedrals in the event of fire' (leaflet 4) which, I would suggest, is a reasonable starting point for developing a fire risk assessment procedure for churches.
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It never ceases to amaze me how many different fire safety publications there are. Am I alone in thinking there ought to be some co-ordination?
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My understanding is that the major denominations have issued guidance on this to their member churches. Risk assessment is, of course, a management duty and I have not found myself in that role with regard to churches. Where there is employment, they will come under the whole raft of health and safety at work legislation and subject to inspection and enforcement in that respect. Environmental Health Officers may have some experience in this respect and you could also try asking your question in that direction. I hope that separation of lighted candles from combustibles and provision of portable extinguishers feature in their risk assesments as well as fire plans - whilst travel distances, dead-ends and single stairway conditions are likely to not be in accordance with current standards and will need particular attention. I agree that it would be interesting to hear from someone who has checked fire risk assessments from churches and wonder to what extent this has taken place.
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Many thanks for your helpful comments so far.
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I agree firmly with "guest" on what he said all the way through this topic!
he posted a simple enough question and has received some very snidey remarks back. :!:
We are all here to help each other some of us are more experienced in this field than others - lets help one another rather than trying to sound smug, smart and enigmatic!
God you watch there will be a sarcy reply to this comment soon enough.
:?
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Looking at the legalities first, if there is no one employed to work and at work the Workplace regulations dont apply. Neither does the Fire Precautions act.
However, the duty of care is ever present whichmeans that a risk assessment should be carried out not only for fire but for other areas as well.
I agree with the posters comments about travel distances etc as the vast majority of these types of building are existing, therefore the building regs dont apply either.
In terms of risk assessment, i would suggest that the risk is fairly low generally, notwithstanding arson of course, and consequently the response to the problem may be lower than that expected for other user groups. In general, fire loading is not high and therefore spread will not be rapid.
The poster was treated rather harshly I think!
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I thought Clerics received a salary.
So workplace regs would apply.
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Even if the clerics were not paid and even if the premises could be deemed not to be subject to FPA or FP(W)R it would be wise to do an FRA as not only is it sensible anyway, the RRO would surely kick in and cover the premises (when it eventually emerges in 100 years time)!
I've seen varying standards in churches - some have no precautions or just some ancient extinguishers; others have extinguishers to the church and the church hall type bit attached having some rudimentary compartmentation, fire doors and escape lighting if licensed and others still have the whole 9 yards.
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'Clerics' and many other ministers of religion are employees and so the whole raft of employment law will apply. However some churches do not have employees (eg some non-conformist groups like, Christian Brethren, House Churches, etc) although many will have their own buildings for their meetings.
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Thanks for your useful comments so far, I knew there were some sensible professional people out there. From the earlier comments I am concerned for some of the posters clients and what advice they are getting !!!!!!!!!
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The church might and I do say might come under the FP (special Premises)Act am trying to find out more on that
At the risk of sounding catty I think that someone who said and I quote "At the risk of sounding realistic" shouldnt be a fire prevention officer if thats his attitude.
Lets help others out shall we rather than try and ridicule them.
Being smart doesnt impress anyone.
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I think everyone who has posted suggestions is, clearly, trying to help out. I hope my comments have not been misinterpreted.
I also think we should avoid commenting on each other's ability to work in their profession based on a very limited knowledge of their ability.
Going back to the subject matter, if there are cleaners or any other employees in the building, they have an employer and therefore the legislation applies. Even if it doesn't there are still duties under Health and Safety legislation and even the Occupiers Liability Act requiring known risks to be properly managed.
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I have alittle experience of this kind of building.
From what I saw you have a public building with a potentially high occupancy but often with only one decent means of escape.
Its unrealistic to expect 500 year old churches to be modified to current standards and the risk of fire probably wouldn't warant it.
But extra care with potential sources of fire that may obstruct the exit is needed. Candles are the obvious ignition source but these are usually used with porpoer holders.
Its the old PC or Electric organ stuck in the lobby behind a big velvet curtain that is potentialy more of a problem.
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The church might and I do say might come under the FP (special Premises)Act am trying to find out more on that
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I would be worried if any church was doing anything to come under the FC(SP) Regs! (see below)
Premises for which a FC(SP) Regs 79 fire certificate is required
1 Any premises at which are carried on any manufacturing processes in which the total quantity of any highly flammable liquid under pressure greater than atmospheric pressure and above its boiling point at atmospheric pressure may exceed 50 tonnes.
2 Any premises at which is carried on the manufacture of expanded cellular plastics and at which the quantities manufactured are normally of, or in excess of, 50 tonnes per week.
3 Any premises at which there is stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of liquefied petroleum gas in quantities of, or in excess of, 100 tonnes except where the liquified petroleum gas is kept for use of the premises either as a fuel, or for the production of an atmosphere for the heat treatment of metals.
4 Any premises at which there is stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, liquefied natural gas in quantities of, or in excess of, 100 tonnes except where the liquefied natural gas is kept solely for use at the premises as a fuel.
5 Any premises at which there is stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, any liquefied flammable gas consisting predominantly of methyl acetylene in quantities of, or in excess of, 100 tonnes except where the liquefied flammable gas is kept solely for use at the premises as a fuel.
6 Any premises at which oxygen is manufactured and at which there are stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, quantities of liquid oxygen of, or in excess of, 135 tonnes.
7 Any premises at which there are stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, quantities of chlorine of, or in excess of, 50 tonnes except where the chlorine is kept solely for the purpose of water purification.
8 Any premises at which artificial fertilizers are manufactured at which there are stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, quantities of ammonia of, or in excess of, 250 tonnes.
9 Any premises at which there are in process, manufacture, use or storage at any one time, or there are facilities provided for such processing, manufacture, use or storage of, quantities of any of the materials listed below in, or excess of, the quantities specified-
Phosgene 5 tonnes
Ethylene oxide 20 tonnes
Carbon Disulphide 50 tonnes
Acrylonitrile 50 tonnes
Hydrogen cyanide 50 tonnes
Ethylene 100 tonnes
Propylene 100 tonnes
Any highly flammable liquid 4,000 tonnes
not otherwise specified
10 Explosives factories or magazines which are required to be licensed under the Explosives Act 1875(a).
11 Any building on the surface at any mine within the meaning of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954(b).
12 Any premises in which there is compromised-
(a)
any undertaking on a site for which a licence is required in accordance with section 1 of the Nuclear Installations Act 1965(c) or for which a permit is required in accordance with section 2 of that Act; or
(b)
any undertaking which would, except for that fact that it is carried on by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, or by, or on behalf of, the Crown, be required to have a licence to in accordance with the provisions mentioned in subparagraph (a) above.
13 Any premises containing any machine or apparatus in which charged particles can be accelerated by the equivalent of a voltage of not less than 50 megavolts except where the premises are used as a hospital.
14 Any premises at which there are in process, manufacture, use or storage at any one time, or there are facilities provided for such processing, manufacture, use or storage of, quantities of unsealed radioactive substances classified according to Schedule 3 of Ionising Radiations (Unsealed Radioactive Substances) Regulations 1968(d) in, or in excess of the quantities specified-
Class I radio nuclides 10 curies
ClassII and III radio nuclides 100 curies
Class IV radio nuclides 1,000 curies
15 Any building, or part of a building, which either-
(a)
is constructed for temporary occupation for the purposes of building operations or works of engineering construction; or
(b)
is in existence at the first commencement there of any further such operations or works
and which is used for any process or work ancillary to any such operations or works.
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Common Law and the Occupier's Liability Act will certainly apply, Chris. As to Health and Safety at Work law, it applies to employers, self-employed persons, persons in control of workplaces, persons who design workplaces, persons wo supply items for use at work, etc - ie employment for work has to be the test (whether or not with a contract of employment or even paid). If the cleaner is employed to clean, the employer will be subject to H&S law but not necessarily the building if it is not under the control of the employer - but the employer will have a duty to see that the work is without risk so far as is reasonably practicable. Some churches are basically groups of local people formed together as a church but without any central employing body and employing no-one. They probably do their own cleaning or engage contract cleaners and other tradesmen when necessary. Nevertheless they have legal duties of care as occupiers to their visitors and neighbours - which must imply assessing the risks and doing what is reasonable to control them.
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I am, as far as I am aware, the only (part-time, voluntary) fire safety consultant to an Anglican Diocese, following 28 years employment at the Fire Research Station. This reply is the nearest I can be to definitive, but applies only to Anglican churches in detail.
(a) Vicars & Rectors are considered to be 'Self-employed' for tax purposes - they have the 'freehold' of the living and no written contract of employment, strange to relate! Therefore srictly speaking they are not employees.
(b) Any employment, eg cleaners, full or part-time, immediately brings in requirements under H&S at Work. Over 5 people, or any one working above the ground floor, makes written assessments for fire and other safety issues mandatory.
(c) all will change next year when churches are included as assembly buildings as part of the new fire reform act - details not yet available.
(d) Information from:
(i) Ecclesiastical Insurance Office in Gloucester
(ii) Churches Main Committee - a booklet published several years ago
(iii) Fire Prevention/Fire Journal, February this year has an article on an assessment system devised by Dr Alex Copping at Bath University regarding property protection.
Sorry for a brief answer, but hope it helps.
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I forgot to mention in my previous reply that both HSE and Insurers recommend treating church voluntary workers as if they were paid employees. HSE do this to protect the workers, Insurers do this to reduce the risk of themselves and their customers paying out large sums to people injured on church premises!
So it is advisable to carry out risk assessments of both the building (such as fire, slips and trips etc.) and of all the jobs that volunteers as well as paid staff do.
Churches Main Committee is at 1, Millbank, London, SW1P 3JZ or on
http://www.cmainc.org.uk
Plenty of info re legislation and risk assessments on FireNet - just keep looking.
Most major denominations have someone concerned about fire safety - contact the head office or equivalent. The Anglicans work mostly on details at Diocesan level; they should contact the secretary of their Diocesan Advisory Committee on Church Buildings - the 'DAC' as it's often known for short.
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If you look hard enough, you can find a website on any topic!
http://www.churchsafety.org.uk/information/assess/fire_assess.htm
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Many thanks for drawing my attention to that website.
Dr Alex Copping's assessment includes some 17 areas of fire safety with many useful aide-memoirs, even for the experienced.
He works on a 0-5 scale and weights the results so those areas with the most effect on fire protection produce the worst figures if they are not in good order. So hopefully it enables not only an individual building to be properly assessed but also a consistent yardstick to compare the fire protection between a number of different buildings.
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I suggest you take a look at the Church Occupational Safety & Health website for some very good sound advice, all of which is free.
Go to http://www.c-osh.org.uk
There is a section dedicated to Fire risks etc.
Hope this helps.
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Greetings in the precious name of Jesus Christ. My name is Aruna and my husband’s name is Moeen Sadiq, we both are retired people and are serving the lord by feeding the poor people living in cloth made houses such as tents and facing the extream weathers of Pakistan, we are as well teaching the children from age 5 to 12 years the basics of gospel and our language Urdu, we are doing all this work from our limited resources, we request you to pray for our vision and our ministry “ followers of Jesus Christ” because we know when people of God pray for a just cause He answers their prayers.
Your sister in Jesus
Mrs.Aruna Moeen Sadiq
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Have just tried google for emergency lighting in churches. Whole load of addresses and useful information ranging from Baptists through to .... well I havent reached z yet. All give sound sensible advice and are telling the same story. Why do they have so much trouble with their other story?
Mind how y go
Roy
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Ecclesiastical Insurance Company produce some useful but basic advice notes, they also have a web site. More designed for occupiers rather than fire safety proffessionals.
Most problems can be solved by a risk assessment approach and a little lateral thinking. If all else fails pray for divine inspiration!
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eh?
i think i've got a headache!
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The first thing is to contact the local Fire Safety Officer for advice and guidance. Strictly speaking, churches are in a rather peculiar position and I believe that some of the regulations that apply to other buildings may not apply. However those on duty in a church owe a duty of care to visitors.
This is a problem that affects our local Cathedral. Over the last few years a comprehensive Fire Plan has been prepared which includes Evacuation Procedures for the different groups of volunteers who work there.
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Out of interest, e-mailing York Minster (a quick Google should give you their address) may help. They're big, have exactly the kind of publicly- accessible tower you are talking about and given their recent past should be pretty hot on all things fire related, including risk assessments. Can't hurt to send an e-mail in their direction.
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I would have thought the risk to life was obvious? I am sorry i have not made it a simple request for info but if you had say 15 members of the public at the top of a tower with only one escape route and a fire started the ground floor, how would you get the people out ? My question is to professionals that have carried out assessments what have they done, restricted use, carried out upgrading and other contol measures etc.
Do you know of a church where 15 members of the public assemble in a tower at times when there is no-one else in the building to give warning in case of fire? I was a chorister in my early years and have been organist at several different churches since. As organists are every bit as proud of their anoraks as fire safety enthusiasts, you will no doubt appreciate that I have visited hundreds of churches. I can't think of any (apart from some of the major cathedrals/minsters ) where this would even be possible.
Much more of a problem are the evangelical/charismatic Christian groups and some mosques which regularly cram large numbers of people into premises with hopelessly inadequate MOE. We had a report recently of a mosque that regularly attracted 250 people that only had one door - and that wasn't a final exit.
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Slightly on/off topic here - does this explain why the tea light candles have been removed in recent years and been replaced by electric ones (which you light by pressing a button once you've done your bit)?
Most of the recently built churches (say within the last 20/30 years have some sort of em. lighting and a M cat. fire system.
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Slightly on/off topic here -
ofand a M cat. fire system.
Messiah category?
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Nope - Moses category.The water he was holding back is released and extinguishes the fire.
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Slightly on/off topic here - does this explain why the tea light candles have been removed in recent years and been replaced by electric ones (which you light by pressing a button once you've done your bit)?
Most of the recently built churches (say within the last 20/30 years have some sort of em. lighting and a M cat. fire system.
Not really off topic. The '15 people in the tower with only one way out' scenario is exactly that described by 'Guest'.
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We've had a request to put a full height curtain across the full width of our church, about 3 feet from the back wall (where the stage is) to allow for hidden access to the stage during a Christmas event.
This will cover the fire escape door - is this something that we can do, if so, what mitigation factors should we consider (named stewards to pull back the curtain etc?)
The room holds about 100 people.
Any useful info (apart from "use google") gratefully received
thanks
Stu
PS I've found some good online guides from the methodists etc, but this is a rather specific query.
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FR curtain? Exit still evident by BS or EU signage?
The one person to pull one rope to open a closed material exit has previously been OK for licensed events in tents - but even they are often required to have doors these days.
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Dear Guest I have conducted several FRA's in places of worship, (North West) if you would like further details please e mail info@tfsltd.net