FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: The Colonel on March 12, 2008, 08:39:43 AM
-
Interesting happenings in Bournmouth where fire extinguishers have been removed from communal areas of flats as they are a safety hazard. Interesting inview of some comments in threads on the forum.
Have a look and see what they say at
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=115014&in_page_id=34
-
Numpties?
-
Interesting eh. There's nothing new about the decision to remove or omit fire extinguishers from communal areas in flats. If a resident wishes to deal with a fire within their flat then they can provide one for themselves. Modern building regs will ensure a protected route to safety in the event of fire and of course a fire risk assessment should flag up the need, should there be one, and I doubt it, for fire extinguishers on landings etc. That's me, but what do you think?
-
Nothing new in this at all. I havent seen fire extinguishers in the communal areas of flats for yonks.
Problems with vandalism and untrained residents trying to fight fire were the reason they removed in our county.
-
Agree with Paul M there was probably never a requirement for the extinguishers its just a shame that the reason to justify their removal has become so distorted.
I find the elf and safety lobby against the provision of extinguishers incredible. They look on a piece of safety equipment as potentially a hazard and yet support the retail sale of petrol, fireworks, matches, LPG, acetylene cylinders to members of the public without any particular control over how they are used or stored.
Its a bit like the sale of respiratory person protective equipment. Anyone can go into into B&Q and buy a sander or grinder. There is a risk that someone will use the wrong type of mask for the hazard they are about to create and cause themselves harm- and yet the elf and safety lobby dont campaign to stop the sale of dustmasks to untrained people in case they use the wrong one and hurt themselves.
-
Agree with Paul M there was probably never a requirement for the extinguishers its just a shame that the reason to justify their removal has become so distorted.
I find the elf and safety lobby against the provision of extinguishers incredible. They look on a piece of safety equipment as potentially a hazard and yet support the retail sale of petrol, fireworks, matches, LPG, acetylene cylinders to members of the public without any particular control over how they are used or stored.
Its a bit like the sale of respiratory person protective equipment. Anyone can go into into B&Q and buy a sander or grinder. There is a risk that someone will use the wrong type of mask for the hazard they are about to create and cause themselves harm- and yet the elf and safety lobby dont campaign to stop the sale of dustmasks to untrained people in case they use the wrong one and hurt themselves.
Kurnal...Such a wise head on a young shoulder (well maybe). Well said, my sentiments completely
-
This comes back to the good old sleeping guide and the confusion amongst Risk Assessors about fire precautions in flats.
There's a fair number of people who are doing FRAs in the common parts of flats and providing extinguishers. I expect a few of them sell extinguishers but lets not go down that route.
I think a few Brigades are/have also recomended extinguishers (cos they get confused too).
So the decision that is in the news is to remove extinguishers that people have only just started putting in!
Good here isn't it.
-
Should retailers now stop selling fire extinguishers to house, car, caravan, boat owners etc. because said owner is not trained to use it ?
Should internet sellers be allowed to trade in fire extinguishers without viewing the buyers training certificate of competancy ?
Should I allow myself to use a fire extinguisher in a fire situation ?
I'm a certificated service technician, therefore I know how they work.
I run live fire training sessions for commerce and industry, therefore I've used them.
But am I trained enough to actually put a proper fire out in a life threatening situation ?
I have just risk assessed myself. I am so inadequate. Oh God what shall I do ?
I am now so worried and will now look for another career.
Maybe these guys:
Ice cream toppings a health and safety risk
31 January 2008
The Italian ice cream chain "Morellis" banned staff from putting toppings on customers' ice creams in case they slipped over them if they dripped off. Instead customers received the cone with the topping in a separate pot to pour on themselves.
At least I won't now fire dry powder into my face. I'll just end up getting assaulted by a spoon full of hundreds and thousands. :rolleyes:
-
OK dude - I hear you. I think what the issue here is
Should we require (by force of law) fire extinguishers in the common parts of blocks of flats?
-
There are 4 seperate blocks of flats each containing 5 flats that are joined like terrace houses with one basement car park running below all 4. There are 4 seperate front doors, one to each block, would there need to be a seperate ( independant ) AFD panel in each block or only in one, connected to the others via repeater panels?
-
Hi All,
I saw the article in the Metro - all they appear to have succeeded in doing is worrying the wotsits out of the residents.
Does anyone have a reliable, confirmed statistic about how many people die each year from the inappropriate use of a fire extinguisher while fighting a fire?
I'd also be interested to see figures about the number of fires put out by members of the public before the brigade turned up. These should be available from insurance claims.
Can any one enlighten me?
thanks,
TC
-
Essex FRS told me informally that 90% of fires are extinguished without any FRS involvement. I can't remember who said this or when, but anyone who thinks that people call 999 before pouring some water on a waste paper basket is kidding themselves. The public regularly extinguish little fires which never get reported.
-
Essex FRS told me informally that 90% of fires are extinguished without any FRS involvement. I can't remember who said this or when, but anyone who thinks that people call 999 before pouring some water on a waste paper basket is kidding themselves. The public regularly extinguish little fires which never get reported.
Then in a flat environment each resident, if they so wish, should supply their own extinguisher and keep it in an appropriate position within the flat. If you are a managing agent that supplies these tools then who is expected to grab one to fight a fire or are they just hung on the brackets, nothing said and we all keep their fingers crossed that no one gets injured. When an extinguisher is supplied the question must be asked why and for whom. Then surely as a managing agent there must be some sort of up front instruction and guidance. There are places that should be supplied with extinguishers and they would be were someone is employed on the premises that has to undergo statutory fire training. To just supply them and leave it as a free for all could be asking for problems
-
Essex FRS told me informally that 90% of fires are extinguished without any FRS involvement. I can't remember who said this or when, but anyone who thinks that people call 999 before pouring some water on a waste paper basket is kidding themselves. The public regularly extinguish little fires which never get reported.
Very true. I think I remember one of my colleagues quoting the giovernment speil that 2 out of 3 fires never get reported to the Fire Service, which ties in with what you were told by Essex FRS Mr Houston
-
If the flats have wardens like the ones I have assessed lately, arnt the employers required to provide extinguishing medium for their own staff?
Also, in my opinion would a team of firefighters go in with hoses straight away? or do a recce? as if they were checking if there was a fire then if it was small could use this (located on common area) to extinguish a relatively small fire without the need to go back out and then enter fully equipped to fight a then fully established fire with all the additional risks
-
OK dude - I hear you. I think what the issue here is
Should we require (by force of law) fire extinguishers in the common parts of blocks of flats?
Ola Wee B,
Maybe by force of common sense ?? :)
But the issue was that the extinguishers were assessed as a potential hazard to untrained operators. Their use in fighting a fire wasn't even considered.
My point was that most everyone is untrained. But maybe, just maybe, one resident in the flats may have the nowse to look at the instructions and not aim the thing into their eyes, drop it on their foot or assault a fellow resident with it.
But seriously, more than anything else it's this quote that worries me:
"Dorset Fire and Rescue defended the move, saying: 'Obviously, in some cases, an extinguisher could come in useful but, with new building regulations, every escape route should be completely fireproof.'"
"every escape route should"..........Is that a definite "every escape route IS"
-
If the flats have wardens like the ones I have assessed lately, arnt the employers required to provide extinguishing medium for their own staff?
Also, in my opinion would a team of firefighters go in with hoses straight away? or do a recce? as if they were checking if there was a fire then if it was small could use this (located on common area) to extinguish a relatively small fire without the need to go back out and then enter fully equipped to fight a then fully established fire with all the additional risks
Fire extingusihers should be provided for the wardens - you will normally find they will be kept in the Warden's office.
Extinguishers should also be provided for fire service use in things like plant rooms / large lift motor rooms.
-
"Dorset Fire and Rescue defended the move, saying: 'Obviously, in some cases, an extinguisher could come in useful but, with new building regulations, every escape route should be completely fireproof.'"
Strange statement:
- "Completely fireproof" is a utopian situation far beyond the capabilities of the building regulations.
- New building regulations won't do anything for older buildings.
- Designing a building to comply with building regs won't prevent a fire in an escape route caused maliciously or negligently.
-
There are 4 seperate blocks of flats each containing 5 flats that are joined like terrace houses with one basement car park running below all 4. There are 4 seperate front doors, one to each block, would there need to be a seperate ( independant ) AFD panel in each block or only in one, connected to the others via repeater panels?
Depends on the separation between each block and the basement car park. Could a fire in the car park affect any or all of the flats or are the car park entrances external with an imperforate concrete floor between them? If a fire in the car park could possible affcect the flats there may be a need for a common alarm.
Are the flats in accordance with current Approved Doc B in terms of staircase protection and compartmentation? If so there should be adequate separation and there may be no need for common alarms linking car park to flats.
-
.......I find the elf and safety lobby against the provision of extinguishers incredible. They look on a piece of safety equipment as potentially a hazard and yet support the retail sale of petrol, fireworks, matches, LPG, acetylene cylinders to members of the public without any particular control over how they are used or stored........
Prof. K, I obviously use a few pyrotechnical enhancements when casting spells - the recipients are then blinded to my inadaquencies and can't hear the b&8%**ks I'm spouting!
The last time I checked, there were controls for the public storage of retailed purchased fireworks and it was an unlimited amount for up to 14 days or 2Kg forever. I therefore ensure I get through my own 7 tonne stock of 'BunkerBusters' on a 14 day cycle!
-
If the flats have wardens like the ones I have assessed lately, arnt the employers required to provide extinguishing medium for their own staff?
Also, in my opinion would a team of firefighters go in with hoses straight away? or do a recce? as if they were checking if there was a fire then if it was small could use this (located on common area) to extinguish a relatively small fire without the need to go back out and then enter fully equipped to fight a then fully established fire with all the additional risks
Fire extingusihers should be provided for the wardens - you will normally find they will be kept in the Warden's office.
Extinguishers should also be provided for fire service use in things like plant rooms / large lift motor rooms.
how then on a 10ish storey building would an extinguisher be available to a member of staff within a 30m search distance i.e. bs5306
-
Right, several points here for me to get my teeth into on my favourite subject of extinguishers:
- Does a communal area require them by law?
NO, not normally as they should be fire sterile and even if there is the odd plant pot or post trays, where are the (realistic) ignition risks. I think you will find that if you look in fire statistics for flats that most of the fires that occurred started in the flat and so for a 'first aid' attack a communal extinguisher is of little use - if you are out then you shut the (fire) door, sound the fire alarm (if you are in a conversion whose construction warrants it), get out & dial 999, the extinguisher is serving no further life safety purpose
- If I have them already do I remove them?
YES You can if you wish, it's up to you and your FRA
- Are they a health & safety hazard?
NO a fire extinguisher does not contravene any existing UK Health & Safety legislation unless by virtue of being not maintained or not competently maintained it's condition is hazardous (rusty extinguishers & CO2'swithout horns have caused deaths in use around the world in the last few years)
- What about Wardens?
Wardens only require fire equipment where a first aid attack is required by virtue of the risk. They aren't firefighters so don't need equipment to attack a fire in the flats. We've already established there are no risks in the communal stairwells to warrant extinguishers so that's out. That leaves their office and flat, so perhaps a blanket and small ABC Powder extinguisher.
- Plant rooms?
Potentially yes, for use by engineers etc should a fire occur whilst they are working on the equipment. The fire service would tend to prefer to use their own equipment & I've never met any requiring extinguishers to be installed for their use.
- BS 5306?
Base guidance for typical commercial premises, but not law and not to be slavishly followed to the letter unless you are trying to flog stuff - there are situations where deviation is acceptable, such as this one
-
I with you brother. I think what has happened in Dorset is that some misguided individual thought they had to have them and then another came along and decided to get rid.
-
My point was that most everyone is untrained. But maybe, just maybe, one resident in the flats may have the nowse to look at the instructions and not aim the thing into their eyes, drop it on their foot or assault a fellow resident with it.
Whilst in an ideal world common sense would apply I've seen the evidence where pins aren't pulled or they have already been emptied & not refilled. Also of course the proud owner of a premises telling me he's put the fire out & has 9!!!!!! extinguishers by him to prove it. Its a litigous society if you cant prove training/competence then maybe they shouldn't have extinguishers.
-
OK dude - I hear you. I think what the issue here is
Should we require (by force of law) fire extinguishers in the common parts of blocks of flats?
Brian, if you do that then some very enterprising young hooded yobs are going to make a fortune by selling a few dozen extinguishers every day, happy in the knowledge that every night they will be able to restock again.
Is there a real need for extinguishers in comon areas of purpose built flats? After all, on the bases that these these types of premises are "Stay Put", just like a row of terrace houses, it would be the same as placing a number of extinguishers in a residential street.
-
If the flats have wardens like the ones I have assessed lately, arnt the employers required to provide extinguishing medium for their own staff?
Also, in my opinion would a team of firefighters go in with hoses straight away? or do a recce? as if they were checking if there was a fire then if it was small could use this (located on common area) to extinguish a relatively small fire without the need to go back out and then enter fully equipped to fight a then fully established fire with all the additional risks
Fire extingusihers should be provided for the wardens - you will normally find they will be kept in the Warden's office.
Extinguishers should also be provided for fire service use in things like plant rooms / large lift motor rooms.
how then on a 10ish storey building would an extinguisher be available to a member of staff within a 30m search distance i.e. bs5306
Risk assessment Jasper old chap!
Its like Anthony B points out, wardens would not be expected to tackle a fire in a flat, only perhaps a small fire in their office.
Not sure I agree with AnthonyB on the fire service not wanting to use the punters fire extinguishers in plant rooms
We always use the punters equipment wherever possible in our Brigade, cos we may get another shout straight after attending the plantroom where we require the use of our own extinguisher (the place we get called to next might not have an PFFE for example). BVut thats just us and we are weird!
-
OK dude - I hear you. I think what the issue here is
Should we require (by force of law) fire extinguishers in the common parts of blocks of flats?
Brian, if you do that then some very enterprising young hooded yobs are going to make a fortune by selling a few dozen extinguishers every day, happy in the knowledge that every night they will be able to restock again.
Is there a real need for extinguishers in comon areas of purpose built flats? After all, on the bases that these these types of premises are "Stay Put", just like a row of terrace houses, it would be the same as placing a number of extinguishers in a residential street.
I agree. That was what I was getting at.
The funny thing in this case is the the "responsible person" is (collectively) the residents. Given that they have paid for them and apear to want to keep them, they could just put them inside their own flats.
I wouldnt make people have extinguishers (other than the sensible places that Anthony B mentioned) but if they want them for themsleves, then good luck to them.
-
Personally as stated earlier I (in my obviously odd viewpoint) consider the staff member (the warden) as a relevant person, therefore if they are on floor 8 and a fire is in the incipient stages and they are present why not extinguish the fire (as they have been trained to do so) and reduce the risk to the firefighers. Being the design of the premises where a stay put policy is in force and no fire warning systems are present and everything is based around adequate structural fire protection
-
Personally as stated earlier I (in my obviously odd viewpoint) consider the staff member (the warden) as a relevant person, therefore if they are on floor 8 and a fire is in the incipient stages and they are present why not extinguish the fire (as they have been trained to do so) and reduce the risk to the firefighers. Being the design of the premises where a stay put policy is in force and no fire warning systems are present and everything is based around adequate structural fire protection
Yep I see where you are coming from Jasper
I believe Im right in thinking that some schemes place extinguishers in cleaners cupboards on each floor to which the warden have access.
It is down to risk assessment - I agree with your assessment of the scenario conversely I also agree with Anthony B's viewpoint.
Thats the beauty of risk assessment I guess :)
-
I see where jasper is coming from as well, but as we have established that the communal areas have minimal fire risk, where would the incipient fire on the 8th floor be that the warden is going to tackle?
If it's in the flats then why is he putting himself at risk entering the flat when instead he should leave and dial 999?
You can argue on both sides & in different situations different answers apply - I've seen sheltered housing with wardens and fire alarms and good security that keep their extinguishers for the reason jasper says and because there is no vandalism or theft of the equipment they are happy to retain it even if they could technically do away with it.
I can understand why some crews would not want to use the engines extinguishers (although you could argue it's not the RP's job to supply the fire brigade with extinguishers) but conversely I've heard other crews who wouldn't rely on kit they are not maintaining unless they have to (such as rising mains). Regardless of the law there are enough non serviced or not competently serviced extinguishers around in premises and although you could prosecute the RP its a bit late after the fact if it didn't work when you needed it to (or worse)
-
Fire extingusihers should be provided for the wardens - you will normally find they will be kept in the Warden's office.
Extinguishers should also be provided for fire service use in things like plant rooms / large lift motor rooms.
how then on a 10ish storey building would an extinguisher be available to a member of staff within a 30m search distance i.e. bs5306
Risk assessment Jasper old chap!
Its like Anthony B points out, wardens would not be expected to tackle a fire in a flat, only perhaps a small fire in their office.
Not sure I agree with AnthonyB on the fire service not wanting to use the punters fire extinguishers in plant rooms
We always use the punters equipment wherever possible in our Brigade, cos we may get another shout straight after attending the plantroom where we require the use of our own extinguisher (the place we get called to next might not have an PFFE for example). BVut thats just us and we are weird!
obviously I need fra lessons
-
evidently
-
evidently
cheeky
-
evidently
cheeky
PhilB does a good course
So does Colin Todddd
Get phoning round, I think you have training needs Jasp! ;-)
-
evidently
cheeky
PhilB does a good course
So does Colin Todddd
Get phoning round, I think you have training needs Jasp! ;-)
been on it!
-
evidently
-
evidently
my dear Watson?
-
Sorry mate - couldn't resist it.
-
grins
-
For the latest twist on this one try this link http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/display.var.2232565.0.residents_win_fire_extinguisher_fight.php
A well known company are now on the band wagon
-
Lets hope that Kidde have trained the users and that litigation does not happen when it goes horribly wrong.
-
Ahh but who's gonna pay for the maintenance contract? - clever
-
Lets hope that Kidde have trained the users and that litigation does not happen when it goes horribly wrong.
I don't think it is the responsibility of product manufacturers to ensure that the end users are trained.
-
But they are giving them out to residents as a freeby therefore it is their responsibility.
-
Ahh but who's gonna pay for the maintenance contract? - clever
How cynical. As if a bumped up service contract was part of the deal. Nice piece of salesmanship there! ;)
-
They will be telling us next that flights of stairs in blocks of flats are now considered a (trip) hazard, and all flats in UK are to be re-assessed.....jeezo, when will the H&S lobby get out and smell the coffee....
-
Noticed on police TV prog last night that Humberside police had to stand by whilst a recently torched stolen car turned into fireball few minutes later.
Apparently Humberside Police have removed Extinguishers from force cars, and orders are that they wait for the professionals.
Can't help thinking that with some basic training, and right Extinguisher they could have prevented fire taking off.
Seems to be in line with their policy of not pursuing motorbikes that are driven dangerously, cars ditto where driver is seen to be underage.
It was clear the officers themselves were frustrated at all these policies.
-
Gel, thanks for bringing that program up, did you also notice the FF putting out the car fire without wearing BA, taking in copious amounts of toxic smoke etc...and at the risk of being criticised here, why, when turned out to a confirmed house fire, (albeit a derelict one on a similar derelict housing estate), was only 1 appliance dispatched
-
Good ol risk assessment. Saveable life and saveable property.
-
But they are giving them out to residents as a freeby therefore it is their responsibility.
Does it follow then that we (Fire Service) are responsible for maintaining the umpteen thousand smoke detectors that we've fitted in the name of CFS?
What's the difference between us giving (and fitting) smoke detectors and Kidde giving away free fire extinguishers?
-
That question has been asked before when Cambridge were giving out detectors in the late 80's. Met Brigades did not follow suit on the advise of legal teams as FRS had no legal duty for Community Safety. Could be slightly different now but in reality only a test case in law would answer the "Duty of Care" question.
-
That question has been asked before when Cambridge were giving out detectors in the late 80's. Met Brigades did not follow suit on the advise of legal teams as FRS had no legal duty for Community Safety. Could be slightly different now but in reality only a test case in law would answer the "Duty of Care" question.
That might ruffle a few feathers.
-
I think the point is being missed when we start discussing Wardens etc, wardens will only be in a retirement scheme or a supported scheme of some descritption, these buildings would be provided with extinguishers. It is a "normal residential block" with no support needs that would not require fire extinguishers.