FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: John Dragon on March 12, 2008, 08:13:43 PM
-
A customer of ours has 15 or so small holiday cottages, mostly old stone built, one or two bed, all are detached (some miles from anywhere), we service a powder extinguisher and a blanket in each of them. The customer wants to know if he should be providing anything else and if so, what regs/rules are relevant?
I am not sure if a FRA is necessary? Any thoughts please?
They also have some houses let to tennants, I assume that these are domestic and no regs apply?
-
On the question of whether the RRO applies to holiday lets, I seem to remember there was some debate on this forum last year sometime. I have also been asked a similar question recently, but it was a privately owned holiday home that was occasionally let to family and friends (for payment). The vast majority of the time it was occupied by the owner a second home (holiday home).
To answer the question I reviewed the RRO and it appeared to be the case that a holiday home type use is not specifically referred to, however the RRO does make reference to domestic premises. Domestic premises are specifically exempted from the requirements of the RRO. The Definition of domestic premises is ‘premises occupied as a private dwelling’. Therefore if we establish that at the times when the premises is let as a holiday home it is not a private dwelling then it suggests the RRO should apply.
The question whether the order applies to holiday homes has recently been debated in the fire press. In the July 07 issue of Fire Prevention Fire Engineers Journal, emeritus professor of fire law, Rosemary Everton, considers this very question.
The subject is considered initially in terms of the definition of a domestic premises being occupied as a private dwelling. And when hired as a holiday home it is still being enjoyed as a private dwelling albeit by the hirer. This being the case it could be argued that the premises are exempt from the requirements of the order.
The counter argument to this being that a definition of dwelling as defined by Lord Millett in Uratemp Ventures v Collins, a dwelling is a place where one lives and makes one’s home, a place to which he returns and forms the centre of his existence.
Professor Everton concludes that
‘on such an analysis (and it emanates from the House of Lords) it surely emerges that for an occupier to occupy premises as a private dwelling he or she would need a considerable interest the place, an interest certainly larger than that either contemplated or conferred by a holiday hiring agreement. Accordingly, with such an interest appearing to be lacking, and the premises thus not being occupied as a private dwelling it follows that they do not constitute a domestic premises and hence are not excluded from the application of the Order’.
Although neither argument has been tested Professor Everton alludes to the view that, should the definition be tested, then the more cogent of the two cases is the definition of a dwelling not including premises let as a holiday home. The article concludes that ‘the nature of the subject is such that any search for precision remains to an extent unsatisfied, until the point is the subject of a court’s decision.’
So no definite clarification, however the stronger argument suggests the RRO does apply to holiday lets. If it does apply then a fire risk assessment should be carried out, and adequate fire safety provision should be in place in line with the recommendations of the FRA.
I suppose a more straight forward way of establishing if your client need to carry FRAs for the premises is to ask the Fire Authority where the holiday lets are located. If they say no and they put it in writing then maybe your client has to do no more. I asked the question in the instance quoted above and the Fire Authority took the view that the RRO did apply to holiday lets.
‘Houses let to tenants’. Not my forte, but I think the housing act applies to rented properties. (Or it used to) Local authorities can and do require minimum standards in terms of fire safety.
-
As far as Wales is concerned holiday lets are claased as a business and as such fall under the RRO. At a meeting between the 3 Welsh brigades, Visit Wales Tourist Board and the Welsh assembly Government in June 2007 it was made clear by the FRS that the RRO aplied and that a fire risk assessment would be required, this was backed up by legal counsels advice.
Have a look at the out come of the meeting at the following; http://new.wales.gov.uk/docrepos/40382/4038231141/403821124154/1616854/1616923?lang=cy
-
The East Midlands tourist board takes the view that holiday lets are subject to the RRO and they will not offer a grading to any which does not have a recorded risk assessment. Gold plating the RRO I know but most owners want their ticks!
I put together a do it yourself template for one of the bigger letting agencies so they took a similar view. I canvassed the views of the Peak district Fire services, Environmental Dept and trading standards all who took Prof Evertons view.
Interesting that the sleeping guide says on page 1 that the document applies to holiday chalets but cottages etc are not mentioned.
-
interlinked mains wired smoke detectors with battery back-up in risk rooms eg lounge .provide same detection to cover escape routes including hallway and landing.heat detector in kitchen.
rechargeable torches in each bedroom.
fire blanket in kitchen.
risk assessment.
have i missed anything?
-
You could consider:
Fire instructions and house rules for visitors- including the full address of the property with postcode?
Electrical, gas testing and PAT testing?
Rules on deep fat frying and candles?
Fire Blanket in kitchen?
And finally
Bottle of Moet and Chandon in the bedroom when I am staying?
Goblin teasmaid in every room?
-
My opinion of the situation is that a holiday cottage is a business, and as a business the owners need to look after their guests properly
That said I dont for one second think that that should mean the owners spend unrealistic sums of cash on providing over the top provisions.
There are a few things that spring to mind for me:
Firstly a holiday cottage type property should be homely and relaxing and therefore not institutionalised
Secondly no family expects to go on holiday and be put at risk
Yes interlinked AFD and emergency lighting converted from the primary lighting or torches should be considered.
PAT / electrical / Gas testing is a must as Kurnal rightly points out
And one key essential is the postcode and address details Kurnal also mentions - so simple yet often overlooked - damn good suggestion
My suggestion to add to the list would be night latch type locks on the front and back doors, no need to search round for keys then in an emergency.
Also maybe if possible details of where the family could go to to shelter from weather if they ever need to evacuate because of fire such as neighbouring houses?- ok perhaps going a bit OTT but i feel its only fair for any kids or the elderly to be kept dry and warm.
In the case of children it may make things less traumatic for them and plus keeps them away from the wonder of seeing fire engines and firefighters running about and getting in the way where they could be hurt.
The goblin teasmaids are an optional extra mind...
-
Thanks for all the above answers folks, much appreciated, and have been passed on to the owner of the props.
-
The fact that it is a business is not really relevant but whether it is or is not a dwelling is as BCO correctly points out. If it is not a dwelling, it is not a domestic premises and therefore the Order applies.
It's a tricky one and if Proff Everton doesn't know I don't think we'll find the answer on here and we'll have to wait for a Courts decision.
-
And all the regs changes were supposed to make things simpler?
-
They did to be fair John but this has always been a grey area and probably always will be. The Housing Act has tightened up the definintion of HMO.
Dwellings and domestic premises will always flag up problems. You wouldn't want a jackbooted inspector coming into your home and making you fit fire extinguishers and emergency lighting on your walls and quite rightly so.
But when does your home stop becoming a dwelling??? what if part of your home is used as a factory or a shop, or a childminders?
Still if life was too simple we'd have nothing to argue about!
...and Clevelandfire wouldn't be able to shoot himself in the foot so spectacularly.
-
Yeah
Thank god for all of those torches though!
LOL
-
The fact that it is a business is not really relevant
But surely it is.... (I wont call you Shirley again)
When you hire out a cottage surely the RRO does apply because you have relevant persons on the premises?.
-
It is complicated. Thats why lawyers and barristers don't drive Skodas nor go to Skegness for their holidays.
I made a point very recently where, I thought, a home carer came under the RRO. This was shot down because she worked in a "dwelling".
Using the same rationale it would imply that I could run a business from my house (dwelling) and escape the requirements of the legislation.
-
Yes - as long as you don't have employees working there then it all gets a bit iffy again.
I suppose "domestic" employees (somebody who does your cleaning) or other people who work in domestic premises (odd job man/health visitor) won't affect it but other employees (typist who works in your office once a week would make it non-domestic (in part).
-
The definition used to determine whether you are eligible to pay business rates for your business run from the home may provide the the other half of the answer nearlythere. If persons are employed to work in your home for any reason other than as domestic servants then its a workplace.
If there is a room dedicated to trade or business then that room is a workplace and business rates are payable. If you work in the corner of the living room its a dwelling and no business rates are payable. Dont ask me to justify the legal background to these statements though. I cant.
-
Hi All
PhilB has cleared up one point quite nicely.
FSO applies to "places" and then provides guidance on the different types of places the order is enforced.
I haven't ever seen anything in the order that says it has to be a business for FSO to be enforced. Otherwise how would enforcement be placed on the common areas of blocks of flats or charity shops or in the party tent paid for by a company to say taa for the sword of british industry or some-other event inside or outdoors where no money crosses hands.
Interesting that most people consider the order to apply to a holiday let.
Housing Act doesn't apply cos its not a perminant residance.
Sports ground Act ...no not that either.
Fire Safety Order....well then ...
Q1 what is to be enforced? article 4 general fire precautions...yes I can see that
Q2 Who is responsible person?
Is the holiday let now an extension of the occupants domestic arrangements?
Is the owner of the building the RP?
What would be the situation if the lease agreement pined down the lease holder as the respopnsible person for the maintenance of the general fire precautions...
Its too complicated and as Phil B stated let the courts decide...but which fire authority will take a case forward!
Me thinks "not mine" even for failing to comply with an enforcement notice.
To me this is very soft sand and any case is sinking fast
Davio1960
-
I recently attended a 'Fire Safety Risk Assessment Workshop' funded by the Scottish Governement to raise awarness of the new regulations affecting bed and breakfasts and the like. There was someone there with a holiday let and someone with long term lets [>6months]. It was stated that the holiday let was covered by the regulations and the long term let was not.
The holiday let owner was told that all the regs applying to b & b's applied to their property.
So why no mention of self closing fire doors in previous posters lists of requirments they would ask of holiday lets. This is not the message given out on the course, which was that the same rules apply to b & B's.
-
The definition used to determine whether you are eligible to pay business rates for your business run from the home may provide the the other half of the answer nearlythere. If persons are employed to work in your home for any reason other than as domestic servants then its a workplace.
If there is a room dedicated to trade or business then that room is a workplace and business rates are payable. If you work in the corner of the living room its a dwelling and no business rates are payable. Dont ask me to justify the legal background to these statements though. I cant.
So what you mean K is that if I don't pay business rates for my little corner, when I am trying to give an issue my 100%, my wife has the legal right to turn the washing machine on for 120 mins at 60 degrees Intensive Stains - Extra Spin?
Oh well, the price of working from home.
-
The definition used to determine whether you are eligible to pay business rates for your business run from the home may provide the the other half of the answer nearlythere. If persons are employed to work in your home for any reason other than as domestic servants then its a workplace.
If there is a room dedicated to trade or business then that room is a workplace and business rates are payable. If you work in the corner of the living room its a dwelling and no business rates are payable. Dont ask me to justify the legal background to these statements though. I cant.
Thats my point K. A carer is not a domestic servant. The premises are the occupier's dwelling but the carer's workplace. Would RRO not apply to the carer? A dwelling is a dwelling because someone permanently lives in it. It is not a dwelling for the carer who works in it.
-
Thats my point K. A carer is not a domestic servant. The premises are the occupier's dwelling but the carer's workplace. Would RRO not apply to the carer? A dwelling is a dwelling because someone permanently lives in it. It is not a dwelling for the carer who works in it.
No the FSO does not apply the HASAW Act does...safe person concept. The FSO does not apply to domestic premises.
-
I'm sorry I asked now, if you lot have to argue about it, what chance does Joe Bloggs have?
-
I'm sorry I asked now, if you lot have to argue about it, what chance does Joe Bloggs have?
We are not arguing John. We are debating. If I was arguing I would be shouting, swearing, questioning other persons parenthood and generally making wild accusations about their ability to be a member of the human race. As it is I am presenting my views, listening to the views of others, deliberating and evaluating opinion. Then, if nobody accepts my view, I start shouting, swearing, questioning other persons parenthood and generally making wild accusations about their ability to be a member of the human race.
-
I'm sorry I asked now, if you lot have to argue about it, what chance does Joe Bloggs have?
We are not arguing John. We are debating. If I was arguing I would be shouting, swearing, questioning other persons parenthood and generally making wild accusations about their ability to be a member of the human race. As it is I am presenting my views, listening to the views of others, deliberating and evaluating opinion. Then, if nobody accepts my view, I start shouting, swearing, questioning other persons parenthood and generally making wild accusations about their ability to be a member of the human race.
I had noticed!
-
and I never argue or SHOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
I'm sorry I asked now, if you lot have to argue about it, what chance does Joe Bloggs have?
WELL IF YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN WHY DONT YOU TAKE YOURE MEASLEY INSIGNIFICANT SMELLY HOLIDAY LET QUESTIONS AND TAKE A HIKE....
Just kidding John!
Quite often the law or legislation is such that even the most seasoned fire safety proffesionals can't definitively answer certain questions until case law has been created on the subject.
Its exactly because of the debate that goes on here that Joe Bloggs should hopefully get a wide range of views and opinion and become hopefully a bit more edcuated on the topic.
I know its annoying that sometimes we cant answer posers to the grey area topics, believe me it frustrates us to unfortunately English law is seldom black and white and is open to wide interpretation.
-
The definition used to determine whether you are eligible to pay business rates for your business run from the home may provide the the other half of the answer nearlythere. If persons are employed to work in your home for any reason other than as domestic servants then its a workplace.
If there is a room dedicated to trade or business then that room is a workplace and business rates are payable. If you work in the corner of the living room its a dwelling and no business rates are payable. Dont ask me to justify the legal background to these statements though. I cant.
By the by Kurnal I note you are 1666 posts
If that not worth a pint of Kronenburg in celebration I dont know what is
Of course it means you should buy all members a Kronie too you know
* Please note other lagers are available and these forums to not abdocate the use of advertising. Terms and conditions apply. Persons of 70 years old must be accompanied by their parents to qualify.
-
By the by Kurnal I note you are 1666 posts
If that not worth a pint of Kronenburg in celebration I dont know what is
I take it you actually meant the rather fine Kronenburg 1664?
-
By the by Kurnal I note you are 1666 posts
If that not worth a pint of Kronenburg in celebration I dont know what is
Of course it means you should buy all members a Kronie too you know
* Please note other lagers are available and these forums to not abdocate the use of advertising. Terms and conditions apply. Persons of 70 years old must be accompanied by their parents to qualify.
Whoops its 1668 now! Missed the opportunity ! Oh well.
Personally I would prefer a pint of Newcastle Brown anyway Clevelandfire. But it would be my pleasure to buy you several drinks if only to watch your skills countering the effect of the wind.
-
1066, 1666 and 1966 are all rather relevant dates aren't they? rather than some strange pale coloured liquid.
-
By the by Kurnal I note you are 1666 posts
If that not worth a pint of Kronenburg in celebration I dont know what is
I take it you actually meant the rather fine Kronenburg 1664?
No I meant 1666 its like 1664 but even stronger :p
-
By the by Kurnal I note you are 1666 posts
If that not worth a pint of Kronenburg in celebration I dont know what is
I take it you actually meant the rather fine Kronenburg 1664?
No I meant 1666 its like 1664 but even stronger :p
Didn't London burn down in 1666?
-
gives the beer a smokey flavour. They must have made a lot of it, you think they would have run out by now.
-
someone mention beer?
Ill have a pint of best thank you
-
Please dont talk of beer, Im still feeling a little delicate from the easter break.
Its not that I drank too much, Mrs Retty hit me several times with her handbag when she realised I'd snook off down the pub.
-
Retty
It must be a very elastic handbag to reach that far........
-
Its a bit like the long arm of the law Davo