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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Dinnertime Dave on March 31, 2008, 04:01:09 PM
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For anybody interested the link below is to a report summarises the findings from the consultation process into the adequacy of refuges and evacuation procedures. It makes recommendations for potential changes to regulations.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/adequacyrefuges.pdf
Now, I have sat on a disabled access group for 3 years and during the first meeting I asked the members about refuges and I was met with a dull thud. None of them knew of there existence or there purpose. It could be argued that the building management will assist people when necessary and that there isn’t any need for disabled users of building to know about the existence of a refuge. I think differently.
Lets face it how many able bodied people would be happy to sit in a disabled refuge not knowing what was going on?
Some of the comments made by disabled users regarding their treatment are horrific.
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The proposals from this document seem to highlight what we already knew and (as is often the case) propose further research.
• to include management of egress in the fire risk assessments required under the Fire Precautions (Workplace) (Amendment) Regulations 1999i;
• to create and promote the optimum design for evacuation;
• to measure the impact of the implementation of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 (Amendment) Regulations 2003 on management procedures;
• to research the relative effectiveness of different methods of vertical evacuation.
Hopefully this will lead to better things.
Is anyone accepting FRAs that exclude egress management?
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I've included egress management last week at a care home that has purchased a 'stair climber'.
Following a drill...
The stairwell refuge was to small to accomodate the appliance and the residents as they arrived, so the staircase furthest from the incident was designated as the evac route with the adjacent protected corridor becoming the holding refuge, staff communicate with hand held radios.
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Egress management is a key part of the Order. I assume we are all at one on this?
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Oh yes!
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Egress management is a key part of the Order. I assume we are all at one on this?
Totally
However the number of queries we still get suggests that lots of premises think it is the job of the fire service to rescue people they have left in refuges.
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Egress management is a key part of the Order. I assume we are all at one on this?
Totally
However the number of queries we still get suggests that lots of premises think it is the job of the fire service to rescue people they have left in refuges.
You also have the problem of operational crews telling building managers that they will get disabled people out.
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You also have the problem of operational crews telling building managers that they will get disabled people out.
I despair sometimes at what gets said out there!
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I was recently sent a FRA as part of the Building Regs consultation that stated the fire brigade would rescue anybody in the refuge on arrival. I very politely told then that we could not guarantee anything of the sort and that their procedures needed to be amended.
I was given a right mouth full and told that they would be complaining to the CFO. Haven’t heard anything yet.
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Egress management is a key part of the Order. I assume we are all at one on this?
Absolutely
There's great confusion between the words evacuate and rescue out there in my experience.
Ironically one ex firefighter who became a fire safety trainer after he retired was going round care homes telling staff they should evacuate imemdiately on hearing the fire alarms and service users should be left in their rooms for the fire service to rescue!
*slaps forehead*
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Egress management is a key part of the Order. I assume we are all at one on this?
Absolutely
There's great confusion between the words evacuate and rescue out there in my experience.
Ironically one ex firefighter who became a fire safety trainer after he retired was going round care homes telling staff they should evacuate imemdiately on hearing the fire alarms and service users should be left in their rooms for the fire service to rescue!
*slaps forehead*
Oh how familiar this sounds to me. Afraid a lot of confusion is created by fire crews giving ill-informed advice regarding this issue. Whilst we probably know that attending fire crews would 'muck in' with an evacuation someone, somewhere, has to get the correct message across to care homes about their responsibilities regarding fire evecuation. As stated, aptly earlier, they evacuate, the fire crews rescue.
Care Homes should be made to explain their fire evacuation procedures within the glossy brochures they produce. This will give the relatives a choice of whether their parents are abandoned or there is a structured fire evacuation strategy in place. Bet there would be some empty beds in some pcare homes if this were the case. Come on CSCI enforce it.
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..and I'm sure some care homes are aware of the conclusions made by the coroner in the Redcar nursing home fire, discussed here:
http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2190
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I was recently sent a FRA as part of the Building Regs consultation that stated the fire brigade would rescue anybody in the refuge on arrival. I very politely told then that we could not guarantee anything of the sort and that their procedures needed to be amended.
I was given a right mouth full and told that they would be complaining to the CFO. Haven’t heard anything yet.
Had this a few times this year. The lack of knowledge at some senior levels in care groups is very poor regarding the RRO and associated requirements, CLG, CSCI and FA's don't appear to have spread the message internally or externally.
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I was recently sent a FRA as part of the Building Regs consultation that stated the fire brigade would rescue anybody in the refuge on arrival. I very politely told then that we could not guarantee anything of the sort and that their procedures needed to be amended.
I was given a right mouth full and told that they would be complaining to the CFO. Haven’t heard anything yet.
Had this a few times this year. The lack of knowledge at some senior levels in care groups is very poor regarding the RRO and associated requirements, CLG, CSCI and FA's don't appear to have spread the message internally or externally.
Slightly disagree with that
I can certainly say the FRA has been pushing it via Inspecting officers, letter campaigns etc.
As for CLG and CSCI I couldnt comment, but I think theres numerous factors here:-
Firstly we have got to stop wiping peoples bottoms for them. Ive heard many people say "we didnt get enough info" and the truth is there probably wasn't enough publicity to promote the new FSO, but even if there was you would still get people claiming not to of heard of it.
Senior members of any organisation should really take responsibility for finding out what their organisation needs to be doing to comply with the law.
Secondly information overload may play a part here - if you are at a senior management level you probably have 1001 bits of information coming at you from all directions, budgets, operational problems, meetings to attend, and all the rest of it, so when an area manager tells them that a fire officer has been round and talked about a new fangled thing called the Regulatory Reform Order it probably doesn't get absorbed.
This why a lot of larger organisations employ their own Health and Safety Officers.
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For sure, Midland Retty not enough informative publicity before and certainly not enough after Oct 06 via prosecutions, you would have thought the various care monthlies that exist would have info of national fires that have occurred to benefit and educate their readers.
My experience of Health and Safety Officers, including local authorities, is that they don't consider fire safety part of their remit. I've worked for companies with 230 occupancies throughout the UK who do not consider themselves to be a big company.
This size of organisation will buy in the fire expertise; I’ve seen a few FRA’s performed by national providers who send in a H&S inspector, that are way off the mark of being ‘suitable and sufficient’ referring to pre RRO fire legislation.
I can say that the effort of my FA is piss poor for life risk premises such as care homes, hotels and guest houses. The few existing FPO’s want to get stuck into the risk premises, but they don’t set the targets. With it’s focus this year to civilianize the fire safety department, I doubt if the knowledge or the will to put together a prosecution exists.
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Redone
The problem is that fire is a different mindset to H & S and most H & S officers can't or won't get their heads round that.
As for taking the odd ceiling tile out to have a butchers, not your job is it???????
Now my boss has been on a two day course he understands the difference and we have employed a very respected member of this forum to look at some of our more complex premises.
I always knew I was out of my depth on those.
I say to those organisations sending in H & S inspectors they might be able to spot the bleeding obvious but the nuances, no chance.
davo
my opinion only folks
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Ive found alot of Health and Safety Officer to be very knowledgeable on Fire Safety so I think it's a generalisation to say H&S officers dont know much about Fire Safety
Yes I do come across the odd few who don't really have a grasp, but Ive found that with company fire safety officers too.
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Ive found alot of Health and Safety Officer to be very knowledgeable on Fire Safety so I think it's a generalisation to say H&S officers dont know much about Fire Safety
Yes I do come across the odd few who don't really have a grasp, but Ive found that with company fire safety officers too.
I'm sure there are aware types out there. I'm not saying the H&S practitioners don't know much about fire safety, only the ones that I have met. These have admitted they do not have sufficient knowledge to deal with this area, and don't consider it their job.
Davo, I cannot resist taking tiles out for a gander, and if there's access to the roof space...Joy.
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There are aware types out here who recognise the need for suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment and work toward evacuation procedures that are comprehesive and workable. As one H/S officer I recognise the specific importance of fire safety and work closely with our FRS to ensure that we educate and assist in making RP responsible. As for the odd ceiling tile, I been in more voids and roof spaces to last a lifetme.
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Ive found alot of Health and Safety Officer to be very knowledgeable on Fire Safety so I think it's a generalisation to say H&S officers dont know much about Fire Safety
Yes I do come across the odd few who don't really have a grasp, but Ive found that with company fire safety officers too.
There are aware types out here who recognise the need for suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment and work toward evacuation procedures that are comprehesive and workable. As one H/S officer I recognise the specific importance of fire safety and work closely with our FRS to ensure that we educate and assist in making RP responsible. As for the odd ceiling tile, I been in more voids and roof spaces to last a lifetme.
I agree with both Midland and Lambie here, I have come across various H & S practitioners who believe they have a sound knowledge of fire safety issues and fire safety law, and some do, but just like some fire fighters and serving fire safety officers I know, who claim they know their stuff, there are some who are clearly out their depth.
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Just to say that some of us in the H&S profession have notched up some fire experience and qualification, Redone, and included fire safety within our remit - but I do agree that others seem as lacking in that area as a number of visiting fire officers have appeared in both general health and safety and requirements for evacuation management. More information and training is clearly needed in each other's disciplines these days.
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Lets face it - none of us really know all the answers. This isnt helped by a lack of clear standards for fire safety.
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Lets face it - none of us really know all the answers. This isnt helped by a lack of clear standards for fire safety.
Very true
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Has anyone read this document? Are there not lots of inadequacies with it? Not least;
1. Reference to Workplace Regulations? What about the RRO?
2. HSE Employers Fire Safety Guide 1999? Isn't this also now gone?
3. BS5588 Part8 referenced a lot. What about BS 5588 Part 12 and the requirements of Building regs?
Really strange for a report released so recently.
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Has anyone read this document? Are there not lots of inadequacies with it? Not least;
1. Reference to Workplace Regulations? What about the RRO?
2. HSE Employers Fire Safety Guide 1999? Isn't this also now gone?
3. BS5588 Part8 referenced a lot. What about BS 5588 Part 12 and the requirements of Building regs?
Really strange for a report released so recently.
Which report is that?
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The one in post 1.
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Sorry Midland,
The one that started this particular thread - 'The Adequacy of Refuges, Escape Stairs & Management Procedures' recently issued by CLG
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Sorry Midland,
The one that started this particular thread - 'The Adequacy of Refuges, Escape Stairs & Management Procedures' recently issued by CLG
Ahhh that one.... sorry with you now!
Erm all I can say really is that alot of the content seems a tad out-dated in parts!
Expect a hasty revision soon perhaps, Government style!
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I really must read beyond the executive summary some time - it just didn't seem too urgent at the time!