FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: SidM on April 11, 2008, 10:48:01 AM
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I've read virtually every thread on this forum regarding the subject topic and it might just be me but instead of shedding clear light and advice on the issue I am even more confused than before. Is anybody prepared to put their neck on the line and explain in plain English (these being the operative words) when and where green break glasses are required and how they work without delving into unexplained electrician terminology. Some of us don't understand double-pole, PIR sensors, push rocker switches etc as we are not electricans, never have been or never will be.
Predominantly there are two type of doors that I come across, those on magnetic locks and automatically sliding doors. If a punter that is a bit dim like me asks you, do I need a green break glass on this door and if so why, would somebody on this forum be able to explain the differenct scenarios without reverting to convoluted technical terminology.
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Check out https://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fire/documents/UCLFire_TN_001.pdf it should start the discussion and remember its the LFB.
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I've read virtually every thread on this forum regarding the subject topic and it might just be me but instead of shedding clear light and advice on the issue I am even more confused than before. Is anybody prepared to put their neck on the line and explain in plain English (these being the operative words) when and where green break glasses are required and how they work without delving into unexplained electrician terminology. Some of us don't understand double-pole, PIR sensors, push rocker switches etc as we are not electricans, never have been or never will be.
Predominantly there are two type of doors that I come across, those on magnetic locks and automatically sliding doors. If a punter that is a bit dim like me asks you, do I need a green break glass on this door and if so why, would somebody on this forum be able to explain the differenct scenarios without reverting to convoluted technical terminology.
Maybe I could suggest that these types of doors should failsafe in the event of a mains or subcircuit power failure or on operation of the fire alarm and provided with a manual override facility suitably located in the immediate vacinity with the method of operation clearly indicated.
Does that not cover all?
Try BS 7273-4:2007 Code of practice for the operation of fire protection measures – Actuation of release mechanisms for doors
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Check out https://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fire/documents/UCLFire_TN_001.pdf it should start the discussion and remember its the LFB.
Link does not work. Would you be able to email please.
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I've read virtually every thread on this forum regarding the subject topic and it might just be me but instead of shedding clear light and advice on the issue I am even more confused than before. Is anybody prepared to put their neck on the line and explain in plain English (these being the operative words) when and where green break glasses are required and how they work without delving into unexplained electrician terminology. Some of us don't understand double-pole, PIR sensors, push rocker switches etc as we are not electricans, never have been or never will be.
Predominantly there are two type of doors that I come across, those on magnetic locks and automatically sliding doors. If a punter that is a bit dim like me asks you, do I need a green break glass on this door and if so why, would somebody on this forum be able to explain the differenct scenarios without reverting to convoluted technical terminology.
Maybe I could suggest that these types of doors should failsafe in the event of a mains or subcircuit power failure or on operation of the fire alarm and provided with a manual override facility suitably located in the immediate vacinity with the method of operation clearly indicated.
Does that not cover all?
Try BS 7273-4:2007 Code of practice for the operation of fire protection measures – Actuation of release mechanisms for doors
That makes sense although from my reading ALL MORNING the requirement for a green break glass is only where the punter cannot guarantee that the door will failsafe in the event of a fire or does not have appropriate battery back up
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I've read virtually every thread on this forum regarding the subject topic and it might just be me but instead of shedding clear light and advice on the issue I am even more confused than before. Is anybody prepared to put their neck on the line and explain in plain English (these being the operative words) when and where green break glasses are required and how they work without delving into unexplained electrician terminology. Some of us don't understand double-pole, PIR sensors, push rocker switches etc as we are not electricans, never have been or never will be.
Predominantly there are two type of doors that I come across, those on magnetic locks and automatically sliding doors. If a punter that is a bit dim like me asks you, do I need a green break glass on this door and if so why, would somebody on this forum be able to explain the differenct scenarios without reverting to convoluted technical terminology.
Hi Sid
Green break glass boxes should be used wherever you have doors held closed by electro magnetic locking devices.
Normally any doors held closed by electro magnetic devices release to the open / unlocked position when the fire alarm activates.
The magnetic liocking devices are connected to the fire alarm by cable and something called a relay. All the relay does is tell the magnets to release when the fire alarm sounds.
Sometimes the relay can fail, meaning that whilst the fire alarm activates the doors wont release.
The green box is used as a fail safe means of opening the door if the doors fail to open. The green box is connnected directly to the electromagnetic locking device.
I have seen some electricians wire the green box into the the curcuit from the fire alarm (the same circuit which is wired to the relay l talked about earlier. This is incorrect, green boxes must be wired directly to locking device on the door and nothing else)
When you hit a green box it interupts the power supply to magnetic locking device making them release immediately, thus unlocking the door.
Green boxes should not be used in areas used by the public (ie pubs clubs supermarkets) as often the public don't know what the green boxes are for or what they do.
Instead green boxes should be used in staff areas or areas where staff will assist / marshall the evacuation of the public.
Green boxes can be disguised. Take a young offenders institute with electronic locking doors which are held shut to prevent the offenders escaping.
Some young offender might get to know that by pressing green boxes will release the doors and they can escape.
So to prevent the toe rags from doing a midnight flit the green boxes can be disguised as light switches, they can be configured to be only activated by key, infact can be made to look like a million different things!
At the end of the day the green box is just a switch, a bit like a light switch - you press it and something happens. The grren box is just a switch to release the door locking mechanism.
Hope this helps
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I've read virtually every thread on this forum regarding the subject topic and it might just be me but instead of shedding clear light and advice on the issue I am even more confused than before. Is anybody prepared to put their neck on the line and explain in plain English (these being the operative words) when and where green break glasses are required and how they work without delving into unexplained electrician terminology. Some of us don't understand double-pole, PIR sensors, push rocker switches etc as we are not electricans, never have been or never will be.
Predominantly there are two type of doors that I come across, those on magnetic locks and automatically sliding doors. If a punter that is a bit dim like me asks you, do I need a green break glass on this door and if so why, would somebody on this forum be able to explain the differenct scenarios without reverting to convoluted technical terminology.
Hi Sid
Green break glass boxes should be used wherever you have doors held closed by electro magnetic locking devices.
Normally any doors held closed by electro magnetic devices release to the open / unlocked position when the fire alarm activates.
The magnetic liocking devices are connected to the fire alarm by cable and something called a relay. All the relay does is tell the magnets to release when the fire alarm sounds.
Sometimes the relay can fail, meaning that whilst the fire alarm activates the doors wont release.
The green box is used as a fail safe means of opening the door if the doors fail to open. The green box is connnected directly to the electromagnetic locking device.
I have seen some electricians wire the green box into the the curcuit from the fire alarm (the same circuit which is wired to the relay l talked about earlier. This is incorrect, green boxes must be wired directly to locking device on the door and nothing else)
When you hit a green box it interupts the power supply to magnetic locking device making them release immediately, thus unlocking the door.
Green boxes should not be used in areas used by the public (ie pubs clubs supermarkets) as often the public don't know what the green boxes are for or what they do.
Instead green boxes should be used in staff areas or areas where staff will assist / marshall the evacuation of the public.
Green boxes can be disguised. Take a young offenders institute with electronic locking doors which are held shut to prevent the offenders escaping.
Some young offender might get to know that by pressing green boxes will release the doors and they can escape.
So to prevent the toe rags from doing a midnight flit the green boxes can be disguised as light switches, they can be configured to be only activated by key, infact can be made to look like a million different things!
At the end of the day the green box is just a switch, a bit like a light switch - you press it and something happens. The grren box is just a switch to release the door locking mechanism.
Hope this helps
Excellent. Thank you.
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In a residential block of flats that uses an electro magnetic door entry system (will fail safe in power failure). System is not linked into a fire alarm system. Door has a push to exit button to release the door. Do you think a green box should be installed to protect against earth frame faults or a faulty switch?
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b
In a residential block of flats that uses an electro magnetic door entry system (will fail safe in power failure). System is not linked into a fire alarm system. Door has a push to exit button to release the door. Do you think a green box should be installed to protect against earth frame faults or a faulty switch?
Link to FA is belt and braces.
If door lock functions as required, if there is a power failure or not, this could be assessed as OK.
However, what else could effect the proper functioning of the lock? What is the failsafe? Is the means of providing the failsafe facility remote from the door? Can the the failsafe fail along with the normal mode. Can the link between the door lock and the failsafe control fail?
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Retty, 10 out of 10 for the explanation and that is not meant to be patronising.
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In a residential block of flats that uses an electro magnetic door entry system (will fail safe in power failure). System is not linked into a fire alarm system. Door has a push to exit button to release the door. Do you think a green box should be installed to protect against earth frame faults or a faulty switch?
If the door relies solely on a button to exit the button then surely there is potential for failure trapping people in the building. If so, as a first step it should obviously be linked to automatically release on fire alarm. Secondly, a green break glass would be essential according to some advice, although it will probably be abused and the door left unlocked for all to enter.
The liklihood of 'earth frame faults' would require an electrically conductive doorframe but many people would advise the use of a double-pole green break glass unit in all circumstances in the hope that any electrical short likely to by-pass the switch of a single pole green break glass will also cause a 'dead short' of the lock power supply, blow the power supply output fuse and fail-safe release the door.
I understand that there is a new BS that may apply to these sort of doors. I haven't seen it yet but I would guess it will include the recommendation for a double-pole green break glass unit. Anyone else seen this BS yet?
I personally feel that there is a lot of overkill in some advice offered for the emergency releasing of fire doors in as much as the attempt to reduce the risk to zero can be ridiculously expensive and, at the end of the day, it is impossible to make these sort of doors totally fail-safe.
With reference to the document ( found at the link: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/f … TN_001.pdf ) suggested, in an earlier posting, as a point of reference, I would ask FireNet members their opinion on the following:
1) Is everything recommended in the documents supported by a BS or other recognised official recommendation, or does it contain elements over and above these on the basis that the document issuing body feels 'it would be nice to have these things as well'. If they do this, does anyone else agree that it could and does cause much confusion.
2) One of the documents is issued by LFEPA. Apart from premises still requiring a fire certificate, what authority do LFEPA have to demand compliance with their own guidance notes?
3) The LFEPA document clause 2.4 states ' Under no circumstances is an electronic door release to be connected to a local fire alarm sounder circuit. In all cases, the recommendations within Clause 19 of BS 5839 part 1: are to be observed'.
Can anyone see any relevance between the first sentence and the second sentence of the LFEPA document clause 2.4?
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Retty, 10 out of 10 for the explanation and that is not meant to be patronising.
Cracking explanation Retty!.
You say that green boxes can be disguised, Ive never come across this before, but now you mention it I can see how they could be disguised easily.
Are there any "off the shelf products" to do this or do you need a sparky to wire something bespoke for you?
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Dr Wiz
Surprised to find you so far away from your usual refuge, have you strayed from matrons bosom?
You have brought with you an incomplete link to the UCL website- please go back and collect the missing pieces, stick it all back together with gaffer tape and we may be in business.
Question 1 and 2- Did you see the CFOA / IFE document written by Graham Shiel a number of years ago? As far as I am aware, though very dated, (1999) this remains the most complete overview of this subject. The local Enforcement Authority can ask for whatever they like, as you know its down to the Responsible Person to decide how they will comply with the Fire Safety order and the Enforcement Authority cannot prescribe conditions- if they disagree the courts will decide on appeal.
As for your question 3 the answer is no. There does not appear to be a logical link between the two sentences.
Sentence 1 is essential. Many hospitals used to have electronic locks wired for convenience to the sounders, trouble was when the sounders were silenced to help the staff and fire service get on with their work and searches, all the doors used to lock again which was not a great deal of help to anyone.
Sentence 2 seems to be an unrelated matter and I think should have been a seperate paragraph.
I take it to mean that in interfacing the locks to the fire alarm then due regard must be paid to the evacuation strategy for the building, recognising the alarm zone boundaries and ensuring that only the locks in the zones being evacuated open on operation of the fire alarm. Similarly where staff alarms are provided then consideration should be given to the desired cause and effects in relation to the locks.
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Are these always linked to the fire alarm? If so do they always show up on the fire alarm panel as a seperate item or just within the Zone.
www.rbhealthandsafety.co.uk
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I've read virtually every thread on this forum regarding the subject topic and it might just be me but instead of shedding clear light and advice on the issue I am even more confused than before. Is anybody prepared to put their neck on the line and explain in plain English (these being the operative words) when and where green break glasses are required and how they work without delving into unexplained electrician terminology. Some of us don't understand double-pole, PIR sensors, push rocker switches etc as we are not electricans, never have been or never will be.
Predominantly there are two type of doors that I come across, those on magnetic locks and automatically sliding doors. If a punter that is a bit dim like me asks you, do I need a green break glass on this door and if so why, would somebody on this forum be able to explain the differenct scenarios without reverting to convoluted technical terminology.
Hi Sid
Green break glass boxes should be used wherever you have doors held closed by electro magnetic locking devices.
Normally any doors held closed by electro magnetic devices release to the open / unlocked position when the fire alarm activates.
The magnetic liocking devices are connected to the fire alarm by cable and something called a relay. All the relay does is tell the magnets to release when the fire alarm sounds.
Sometimes the relay can fail, meaning that whilst the fire alarm activates the doors wont release.
The green box is used as a fail safe means of opening the door if the doors fail to open. The green box is connnected directly to the electromagnetic locking device.
I have seen some electricians wire the green box into the the curcuit from the fire alarm (the same circuit which is wired to the relay l talked about earlier. This is incorrect, green boxes must be wired directly to locking device on the door and nothing else)
When you hit a green box it interupts the power supply to magnetic locking device making them release immediately, thus unlocking the door.
Green boxes should not be used in areas used by the public (ie pubs clubs supermarkets) as often the public don't know what the green boxes are for or what they do.
Instead green boxes should be used in staff areas or areas where staff will assist / marshall the evacuation of the public.
Green boxes can be disguised. Take a young offenders institute with electronic locking doors which are held shut to prevent the offenders escaping.
Some young offender might get to know that by pressing green boxes will release the doors and they can escape.
So to prevent the toe rags from doing a midnight flit the green boxes can be disguised as light switches, they can be configured to be only activated by key, infact can be made to look like a million different things!
At the end of the day the green box is just a switch, a bit like a light switch - you press it and something happens. The grren box is just a switch to release the door locking mechanism.
Hope this helps
Good summary although I'd disagree that they shouldn't be used in public places. Many public places with powered automatic sliding doors have green boxes e.g. shops / shopping malls / cinemas etc. BS7273-4 and the Scottish Fire Safety Guides cover the provision of these manual release controls and do not exclude places to which the public have access. The green break glass unit should be labelled "break to open door" or something similar and I'm sure signage is available to further explain there use, if deemed necessary.
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Are these always linked to the fire alarm? If so do they always show up on the fire alarm panel as a seperate item or just within the Zone.
www.rbhealthandsafety.co.uk
Sorry boys , if I now quote anything you have previously said , I have never agreed with any relay being fired off a bell /alarm circuit, for the reason stated before , silence action would reinstate the relay. Even using a lathing relay was probably the best compromise to the above.
To be honest it was always a pain when you quote the customer particularly on a conventional panel , a proper link to the equipment you want to control.
I was amazed on one site where this was not adopted (old section 20 building) and in their wisdom the engineers decided to run the door releases off the local alarm circuit in each floor , hey presto phased evacuation sounders pulsing , doors lock , unlock here we go.
I am of the understanding of the new B.S that not only a fire signal will be required , but dependant on the location route of door retainers , access locks a fault condition will also be required .
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The following is extracted from the FSRA Large Places of Assembly guide,
Guidance on fire exits starts from the position that doors on escape routes should not be fitted with any locking devices (electrically operated or otherwise). However, it is accepted that in many cases the need for security will require some form of device that prevents unlimited access, but still enables the occupants of a building or area to open the door easily if there is a fire.
These devices can take many forms but, in the majority of cases, premises where there are members of the public present or others who are not familiar with the building should use panic exit bar devices (i.e. push bars or touch bars). See BS EN 112542 for further information.
Management of electronic door-control devices including time delays The use of such devices may be accepted by
enforcing authorities if the responsible person can demonstrate, through a suitable risk assessment for each individual door, both the need and the adequate management controls to ensure that people can escape safely from the premises.
In public areas, when push bars are operated on escape doors, they should release the electromagnetic locks
immediately and allow the exit doors to open.
In premises where there may be large numbers of people, the devices should only be considered when linked to a comprehensive automatic fire-detection and warning system in accordance with BS 5839-1.16 There should be an additional means of manually overriding the locking device at each such exit (typically a green break-glass point).
Electromagnetic devices
These devices comprise a magnet and a simple fixed retaining plate with no moving parts and are therefore generally considered to be more reliable due to their inherent ‘fail-safe unlocked’ operation.
The release of this type of device is controlled by the interruption of electrical current to an electromagnet either manually via a switch or other means, break-glass point (typically coloured green), or by linking to the fire-warning and/or detection system of the premises.
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Dr Wiz
Surprised to find you so far away from your usual refuge, have you strayed from matrons bosom?
Professor K, you'd be surprised/disgusted/jealous if you knew about some of matron's places I've found myself in lately!
You have brought with you an incomplete link to the UCL website- please go back and collect the missing pieces, stick it all back together with gaffer tape and we may be in business.
Can't be bothered. Scroll up a few posts to the original link and try that one
Question 1 and 2- Did you see the CFOA / IFE document written by Graham Shiel a number of years ago? As far as I am aware, though very dated, (1999) this remains the most complete overview of this subject. The local Enforcement Authority can ask for whatever they like, as you know its down to the Responsible Person to decide how they will comply with the Fire Safety order and the Enforcement Authority cannot prescribe conditions- if they disagree the courts will decide on appeal.
No I didn't see Graham Shiel's document. Nor have I seen those written by each of the country's fire service, local authority, and all those special committees, quangos, dingos and dongos. And this is a problem that really annoys me. There should be one or just a few national bodies producing the rules, or the recommendations or the guidelines. Too many people try to 'get in on the act' and it just causes confusion. The problem is that someone says you have to do 'this' or 'that' when your are 'on my patch' and then someone else wants something different, somewhere else! Then there is the advice that filters throughout the country and then is proved to be poor advice - I'm sure I remember advice produced by someone stating that smoke detectors had to be installed within 1.5m of an electromagnetically held open fire door that was eventually slavishly followed all over the country and then it was rescinded as being poor advice!
Why should regional authorities be able to demand things not covered by national recommendations? If it is a necessary requirement it should apply everywhere and be included in national recommendations/guidelines so that everyone has a chance of designing/installing a system that will comply and not depend on a jobsworth demanding that fire bells be painted pink because someone on Little Dongsbury's Fire And Safety Enforcement Committee demands it so they don't offend the local gay community!
As for your question 3 the answer is no. There does not appear to be a logical link between the two sentences.
Exactly! I'm sure it causes much confusion. We are paying for these people to produce this drivel - why do we let them get away with it?
Many hospitals used to have electronic locks wired for convenience to the sounders, trouble was when the sounders were silenced to help the staff and fire service get on with their work and searches, all the doors used to lock again which was not a great deal of help to anyone.
In the case of the scenario you describe I would totally agree. however I believe that the insistance that the fire door control interface relays should never be wired to sounders circuits is not reasonable. There can be useful cost-savings in doing it this way and shouldn't cause the problems you highlight in many circumstances. Take for example and Elderly Persons Home that has only fire door hold open devices that automatically release on fire alarm. Once they have released they are not going to automatically swing open and hold back again by themselves after the alarm has been silenced ( I appreciate that there is the argument that interface relays connected to sounder circuits won't release IF the sounder circuit fails. But there is always an IF argument. for example, it could be argued out that the door holds won't release IF whatever interface they are connected to doesn't operate - this applies to fire panel installed aux. relays equally as sounder connected relays.
Every situation could be different, so this why the advice that fire door interface relays should never be connected to sounder circuits can't be right.
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Retty, 10 out of 10 for the explanation and that is not meant to be patronising.
Cracking explanation Retty!.
You say that green boxes can be disguised, Ive never come across this before, but now you mention it I can see how they could be disguised easily.
Are there any "off the shelf products" to do this or do you need a sparky to wire something bespoke for you?
If they can be 'disguised' are they serving the purpose for which they were installed? Or is it only those 'in the know' who are allowed to escape in an emergency?
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No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used
Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.
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Most security doors I have seen have a keypad or card reader on the side going into the secure area, room or premises and a thumb turn, handle or knob going from the secure area to the outside or are you discussing something else.
If this is correct and direction of escape in most cases would be from inside the premises to outside then in what situation do you require the green boxes? If you place a green box on the secure side of the door then it would defeat the purpose or am I missing something obvious.
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Exactly! I'm sure it causes much confusion. We are paying for these people to produce this drivel - why do we let them get away with it?
Theres another way of looking at this Dr Wiz.
What so often happens is that because there is no clear national guidance in the public domain the local fire brigade get loads of queries from people wishing to install these things and to do it right. Rather than answer every individual query they produce a guidance document showing their expectations as an enforcement agency. Its intended to help people. It is not set in stone, its more like if you want no hassle from us follow this guidance- or do it another way if you wish but we may take a close look at what you have done and may use enforcement if we disagree that your solution provides an adequate degree of safety. Where theres a BS or EN then its easy - the fire service can just quote that.
The guidance can be put together by a specific officer who perceives the need and puts it through the chain of management and whilst it will be carefully scrutinised to the nth degree for political correctness there is probably nobody to verify the technical accuracy. Not a pretty situation but thats how it often is.
In the case of the scenario you describe I would totally agree. however I believe that the insistance that the fire door control interface relays should never be wired to sounders circuits is not reasonable. There can be useful cost-savings in doing it this way and shouldn't cause the problems you highlight in many circumstances. Take for example and Elderly Persons Home that has only fire door hold open devices that automatically release on fire alarm. Once they have released they are not going to automatically swing open and hold back again by themselves after the alarm has been silenced ( I appreciate that there is the argument that interface relays connected to sounder circuits won't release IF the sounder circuit fails. But there is always an IF argument. for example, it could be argued out that the door holds won't release IF whatever interface they are connected to doesn't operate - this applies to fire panel installed aux. relays equally as sounder connected relays.
Every situation could be different, so this why the advice that fire door interface relays should never be connected to sounder circuits can't be right.
Again I fully agree with you and often latching relays are a reasonable way forward. Graham Shiels document gave a range of solutions that was another well intended attempt to provide national guidance. Although lots of people have criticised it nobody has ever put together anything better as far as I am aware. I think I may have a single spare copy if you are interested.
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No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used
Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.
Clevelandfire, I read it the first time and I read it again upon your insistance (and I'm pretty good at reading - I've been doing it for years. At six years old, I even won a gold star from my teacher Miss Strip (how we giggled!) for my reading!) and I still can't see that it answers my question.
If green emergency door release call points need to be installed for emergency purposes then should they not be available for everyone? If you want an 'exit' facility just for certain users, you could iuse a keypad, or card/proximity reader or keyswitch but surely not describe it as a substitute for a emergency door release switch, which is surely something that is installed for a completely different purpose?
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[quotekurnal]
Exactly! I'm sure it causes much confusion. We are paying for these people to produce this drivel - why do we let them get away with it?
Theres another way of looking at this Dr Wiz.
What so often happens is that because there is no clear national guidance in the public domain the local fire brigade get loads of queries from people wishing to install these things and to do it right. Rather than answer every individual query they produce a guidance document showing their expectations as an enforcement agency. Its intended to help people. It is not set in stone, its more like if you want no hassle from us follow this guidance- or do it another way if you wish but we may take a close look at what you have done and may use enforcement if we disagree that your solution provides an adequate degree of safety. Where theres a BS or EN then its easy - the fire service can just quote that.
The guidance can be put together by a specific officer who perceives the need and puts it through the chain of management and whilst it will be carefully scrutinised to the nth degree for political correctness there is probably nobody to verify the technical accuracy. Not a pretty situation but thats how it often is
Fully understood and accepted Professor K, but why oh why can't they make it totally clear in these documents what parts are purely advice and not 'set in stone' and what is covered by national rules and recommendations? It would reduce much confusion. Better still, why couldn't there be a national set of guidelines issued by one body able to verify technical accuracy, that everyone would follow? Every man and his dog gets in on the act at the moment, and some of what is produced is less than perfect but sometimes gets quoted as 'fact' - it's like how 'urban myths' get about. If I was given a pound for every time an electrician told me that the minimum two sounder circuits have to be 'spread' equally over the premises, because it said so in the Upper Munchkintown Fire Officer's guidance notes that he was given 23 years ago, I'd have £2,987,235 (or thereabouts!)
In the case of the scenario you describe I would totally agree. however I believe that the insistance that the fire door control interface relays should never be wired to sounders circuits is not reasonable. There can be useful cost-savings in doing it this way and shouldn't cause the problems you highlight in many circumstances. Take for example and Elderly Persons Home that has only fire door hold open devices that automatically release on fire alarm. Once they have released they are not going to automatically swing open and hold back again by themselves after the alarm has been silenced ( I appreciate that there is the argument that interface relays connected to sounder circuits won't release IF the sounder circuit fails. But there is always an IF argument. for example, it could be argued out that the door holds won't release IF whatever interface they are connected to doesn't operate - this applies to fire panel installed aux. relays equally as sounder connected relays.
Every situation could be different, so this why the advice that fire door interface relays should never be connected to sounder circuits can't be right.
Again I fully agree with you and often latching relays are a reasonable way forward. Graham Shiels document gave a range of solutions that was another well intended attempt to provide national guidance. Although lots of people have criticised it nobody has ever put together anything better as far as I am aware. I think I may have a single spare copy if you are interested.
Yes please, Prof. K. Can you scan it in and email it to me?
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No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used
Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.
Clevelandfire, I read it the first time and I read it again upon your insistance (and I'm pretty good at reading - I've been doing it for years. At six years old, I even won a gold star from my teacher Miss Strip (how we giggled!) for my reading!) and I still can't see that it answers my question.
If green emergency door release call points need to be installed for emergency purposes then should they not be available for everyone? If you want an 'exit' facility just for certain users, you could iuse a keypad, or card/proximity reader or keyswitch but surely not describe it as a substitute for a emergency door release switch, which is surely something that is installed for a completely different purpose?
Miss Strip obviously was misguided in giving you a star
Retty says green boxes not suitable for M.O.P
Card readers / pads not suitable for MOE - they may fail
green box is failsafe, alot YOI / care homes with DE patients have green boxes which are disguised so patients or offenders dont escape, but staff know what they are if they need to use them, and the satff assist in evacuation, it isnt left to offenders or patients
So wheres the problem?
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No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used
Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.
Clevelandfire, I read it the first time and I read it again upon your insistance (and I'm pretty good at reading - I've been doing it for years. At six years old, I even won a gold star from my teacher Miss Strip (how we giggled!) for my reading!) and I still can't see that it answers my question.
If green emergency door release call points need to be installed for emergency purposes then should they not be available for everyone? If you want an 'exit' facility just for certain users, you could iuse a keypad, or card/proximity reader or keyswitch but surely not describe it as a substitute for a emergency door release switch, which is surely something that is installed for a completely different purpose?
Miss Strip obviously was misguided in giving you a star
Retty says green boxes not suitable for M.O.P
Card readers / pads not suitable for MOE - they may fail
green box is failsafe, alot YOI / care homes with DE patients have green boxes which are disguised so patients or offenders dont escape, but staff know what they are if they need to use them, and the satff assist in evacuation, it isnt left to offenders or patients
So wheres the problem?
So it is agreed that Retty's devices are not green emergency door releases switches but disguised request to exit switches. Why are they therefore being mentioned as being a possible substitute for a green emergency door release switch?
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But I just don't see where you are coming from.
Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.
Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.
Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept
Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post
I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?
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Sidm
my first post. theres the bs 7974 part 4. my brigade have adopted it as the standard and i have enforced it in my brigade. green box the norm. its mentionened in the bs. also htm docs are being ammended to 7274 standards, htm 05 /part k our soon
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But I just don't see where you are coming from.
Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.
Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.
Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept
Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post
I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?
The actual wording Retty used was:
.....Green boxes can be disguised........
Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.
If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.
The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.
Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.
Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and rarely enough time for the latter (although I might be able to make an exception in your case for the future).
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But I just don't see where you are coming from.
Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.
Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.
Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept
Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post
I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?
The actual wording Retty used was:
.....Green boxes can be disguised........
Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.
If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.
The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.
Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.
Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and not enough time for the latter.
I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts. I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.
But a disguised green box isn't a request to exit button necessarily.
Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.
A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.
Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.
Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.
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green box the norm.
What is the norm? In most situations the escape route will approach the door from the unsecured side and you can operate the door like any other door in what scenario do you require green glass boxes?
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But I just don't see where you are coming from.
Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.
Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.
Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept
Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post
I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?
The actual wording Retty used was:
.....Green boxes can be disguised........
Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.
If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.
The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.
Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.
Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and not enough time for the latter.
I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts. I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.
But a disguised green box isn't a request to exit button necessarily.
Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.
A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.
Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.
Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.
Midland Retty, I fully appreciate that where keypads/prox readers are installed, then, invariably. connections for a direct request to exit switch areprovided (this method provides the benefit of a timed 'request to exit' facility) but not all systems have request to exit switches wired in this way. It is possible to wire a normally-closed request to exit switch directly into the electrical feed to the lock.
I maintain the term 'disguised' shouldn't be used with the words green and/or emergency door release switch so as to avoid confusion for the real purpose of the green emergency door release switches that are often recommended. Whether people understand their operation or not, they are the only piece of equipment currently available to do this job that is universally (mostly!) understood.
I maintain that in the circumstances you originally described and the item you described, would have better been called a 'disguised request to exit switch'
I understood what you were getting at from the beginning, but I was concerned that others might have misinterpreted it from the words that you used.
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green box the norm.
What is the norm? In most situations the escape route will approach the door from the unsecured side and you can operate the door like any other door in what scenario do you require green glass boxes?
If the door has a fail-safe electrical locking method relying on a request-to-exit switch to release it, then it is the 'norm' to provide an aditional lock switching device linked to the operation of the fire alarm and also, in case all else fails, a method of releasing the door by a green coloured emergency release switch.
If the door has a simple to use normal handle (or similar) that provides a mechanical action that physically somehow overides the locking facility then the fire alarm interface and green emergency door release might not be required (assuming that emergency use is only required in the escape direction of the 'mechanical overide' facility)
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The actual wording Retty used was:
.....Green boxes can be disguised........
Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.
If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.
The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.
Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.
Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and not enough time for the latter.
I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts. I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.
But a disguised green box isn't a request to exit button necessarily.
Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.
A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.
Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.
Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.
Midland Retty, I fully appreciate that where keypads/prox readers are installed, then, invariably. connections for a direct request to exit switch areprovided (this method provides the benefit of a timed 'request to exit' facility) but not all systems have request to exit switches wired in this way. It is possible to wire a normally-closed request to exit switch directly into the electrical feed to the lock.
I maintain the term 'disguised' shouldn't be used with the words green and/or emergency door release switch so as to avoid confusion for the real purpose of the green emergency door release switches that are often recommended. Whether people understand their operation or not, they are the only piece of equipment currently available to do this job that is universally (mostly!) understood.
I maintain that in the circumstances you originally described and the item you described, would have better been called a 'disguised request to exit switch'
I understood what you were getting at from the beginning, but I was concerned that others might have misinterpreted it from the words that you used.
Hi Prof
So long as the "request to exit switch" has been wired in the same way as the green box would be then it would do exactly the same job yes.
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I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts. I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.
But a disguised green box isn't a request to exit button necessarily.
Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.
A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.
Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.
Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.
Midland Retty, I fully appreciate that where keypads/prox readers are installed, then, invariably. connections for a direct request to exit switch areprovided (this method provides the benefit of a timed 'request to exit' facility) but not all systems have request to exit switches wired in this way. It is possible to wire a normally-closed request to exit switch directly into the electrical feed to the lock.
I maintain the term 'disguised' shouldn't be used with the words green and/or emergency door release switch so as to avoid confusion for the real purpose of the green emergency door release switches that are often recommended. Whether people understand their operation or not, they are the only piece of equipment currently available to do this job that is universally (mostly!) understood.
I maintain that in the circumstances you originally described and the item you described, would have better been called a 'disguised request to exit switch'
I understood what you were getting at from the beginning, but I was concerned that others might have misinterpreted it from the words that you used.
Hi Prof
So long as the "request to exit switch" has been wired in the same way as the green box would be then it would do exactly the same job yes.
M.R. , you may address me as Dr Wiz, if you wish, but not Prof - Kurnal is the only Prof. I know of residing in this home for the slightly bewildered
The answer to your question is obviously yes. But that is not the point that I was making, as I suspect you well understand! I won't go over it again - it is clearly detailed above.
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I suspect you well understand!
Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!
I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.
The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar where the provision of green boxes compromises security.
In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.
Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.
Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?
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I suspect you well understand!
Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!
I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.
The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar where the provision of green boxes compromises security.
In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.
Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.
Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?
M.R. - I am losing the will to fight. My strength is ebbing away fast. This may, of course, be due to the poor quality of sustenance served up in this home, or by the amount of physical abuse I'm receiving from Matron.
My post began in response to your use of the wording.... Green boxes can be disguised
I maintain that 'green boxes' (by which you mean Green Emergency Door Release switches) should never be disguised.
I agree that 'request to exit' switches (in any of their forms) may be disguised (in fact I have come up with a number of nifty variations of them myself over the years)
I am in reasonable agreement with your latest description in your last post because it now clearly uses the phrase ....not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box
I understand that Prof. K (a fellow resident of this home) has discovered a special elixir that enables him to post on this forum a hundred times a day. I will now seek him out and ask if he has any elixir to spare for the rest of us.
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I suspect you well understand!
Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!
I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.
The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar where the provision of green boxes compromises security.
In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.
Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.
Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?
M.R. - I am losing the will to fight. My strength is ebbing away fast. This may, of course, be due to the poor quality of sustenance served up in this home, or by the amount of physical abuse I'm receiving from Matron.
My post began in response to your use of the wording.... Green boxes can be disguised
I maintain that 'green boxes' (by which you mean Green Emergency Door Release switches) should never be disguised.
I agree that 'request to exit' switches (in any of their forms) may be disguised (in fact I have come up with a number of nifty variations of them myself over the years)
I am in reasonable agreement with your latest description in your last post because it now clearly uses the phrase ....not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box
I understand that Prof. K (a fellow resident of this home) has discovered a special elixir that enables him to post on this forum a hundred times a day. I will now seek him out and ask if he has any elixir to spare for the rest of us.
Youve lost the will? Well congratulations you have given me a headache.
I just can't see you logic at all. You could IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES disguise a green box because you dont want CERTAIN people using them when they shouldnt.
I could go and buy a green box now off the shelf from WF Electrical or similiar, you know what I mean dont you? those green boxes with a break glass on the front? they're green with 'emergency door release' or similar printed on the front? yes ? do you understand? then make a resess in the wall so that it fits flush with the wall and then cover it with say a light switch cover which unbeknownst to anyone else actually lifts up to reveal the green box behind if I really wanted to!
No better still tell you what Ill hang a painting infront of it. The staff know its there, the kids dont!
How is that not disguising or hiding its prescence? And why is that such a crime? Admitedly it is a long winded way of achieving the objective, but I could do that if I wanted and it wouldnt be wrong!
So your argument perpetually kicks itself up the backside Im afraid
What really has angered me now is MR rephrases his terminology in a bid to appease you and and all you say is that youre in "reasonably agreement" Well either you agree for security reasons you may want to have an emergency release switch / button / device / lever / knob which is discrete to prevent illicit use or you dont
Now which is it?
I mean Im not sure whats going on here or whether you really are in a care home but for goodness sake I doubt Ive ever met anyone so picky.
What was said originally IMHO wasn't misleading or confusing, but it is now youve added your ten penny worth
What an ididotic argument this has become! Im sorry but just how silly!
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Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!
I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.
The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar where the provision of green boxes compromises security.
In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.
Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.
Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?
M.R. - I am losing the will to fight. My strength is ebbing away fast. This may, of course, be due to the poor quality of sustenance served up in this home, or by the amount of physical abuse I'm receiving from Matron.
My post began in response to your use of the wording.... Green boxes can be disguised
I maintain that 'green boxes' (by which you mean Green Emergency Door Release switches) should never be disguised.
I agree that 'request to exit' switches (in any of their forms) may be disguised (in fact I have come up with a number of nifty variations of them myself over the years)
I am in reasonable agreement with your latest description in your last post because it now clearly uses the phrase ....not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box
I understand that Prof. K (a fellow resident of this home) has discovered a special elixir that enables him to post on this forum a hundred times a day. I will now seek him out and ask if he has any elixir to spare for the rest of us.
Youve lost the will? Well congratulations you have given me a headache.
I just can't see you logic at all. You could IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES disguise a green box because you dont want CERTAIN people using them when they shouldnt.
I could go and buy a green box now off the shelf from WF Electrical or similiar, you know what I mean dont you? those green boxes with a break glass on the front? they're green with 'emergency door release' or similar printed on the front? yes ? do you understand? then make a resess in the wall so that it fits flush with the wall and then cover it with say a light switch cover which unbeknownst to anyone else actually lifts up to reveal the green box behind if I really wanted to!
No better still tell you what Ill hang a painting infront of it. The staff know its there, the kids dont!
How is that not disguising or hiding its prescence? And why is that such a crime? Admitedly it is a long winded way of achieving the objective, but I could do that if I wanted and it wouldnt be wrong!
So your argument perpetually kicks itself up the backside Im afraid
What really has angered me now is MR rephrases his terminology in a bid to appease you and and all you say is that youre in "reasonably agreement" Well either you agree for security reasons you may want to have an emergency release switch / button / device / lever / knob which is discrete to prevent illicit use or you dont
Now which is it?
I mean Im not sure whats going on here or whether you really are in a care home but for goodness sake I doubt Ive ever met anyone so picky.
What was said originally IMHO wasn't misleading or confusing, but it is now youve added your ten penny worth
What an ididotic argument this has become! Im sorry but just how silly!
Clevelandfire, I have long held the opinion that the rudeness you exhibit in your posts is not really becoming of the spirit of this forum. You are also lacking in the most basic elements of a sense of humour. This forum is littered with your stupidly argumentative and aggressive posts. I really don't know how you have survived expulsion from the forum.
I have now come to the conclusion that you are also too stupid to understand the most simple explanations and I will therefore no longer bother to enter in any discussions with you, because it is a waste of my time.
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Perceived rudeness, offensiveness, sarcasm and other general negative banter aside I think I would have to conclude both Wiz and Cleveland are correct in what they say about the use of exit switches and indeed disguising or sorry the hiding of green boxes.
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From reading this topic a lot of usefull infomation has been written that people can refer to as and when they need guidence, I would say that Cleveland has a recent knowledge of topic and has reserched since the topic started, Wiz, like very many members has a historical knowledge that cannot be taught in any class or from any collegue, it is this knowledge and experience that makes this forum so popular as us "youngsters" seek guidence, opinions will and do vary and always will.
From my pespective a green call point is a single action exit device, it is green in colour for a reason, once it is altered by any means that changes its identification or design it cannot be classed as an emergency door release as the manufacture intended its use.
We also use various means of assiting staff access but resticting residents for H&S reasons different customers have different policys that they adopt and manage inhouse.(FA signal to release doors as a minimum)
From Wiz's post I interpret that his point was;
Do you provide a means of escape for a select few (modified request to exit device)
Or provide a means of escape for everybody (green breakglass with correct signage)
By taking a green call point and modifying it in any way not suported by the manufacturer wouldn't be acceptable imo.
Modifying a RTE device is the industry norm.
A question, does the signs act have any relevance on green call points, I notice they are available with signage that seems to have been designated somewhere, if so would this override any of the topic opinions and give a definative answer ?
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GregC
Have dealt with green boxes for yonks. I do subsribe to the fact that if you change the physical curcuitry of the green box then you have done something beyond the manufaturers recommendations.
Changing the appearance doesn't necessarily affect anything so long as staff know what it is. It could be pink with yellow spots or hidden by a painting so long as staff know its there than fine.
But as you corectly pointed out you cannot do this is public areas because the public wouldnt know what the strange mr blobby button is for or that the emergency door release is behind the painting.
Request to exit or exit in an emergency, same thing really is it not in the context of what we have been talking about? At the end of the day all we are doing is providing a switch that will release the doors in an emergency.
And this was my gripe with Wiz - Does it really matter what it is called, so long as the relevant people know what it is and what it is for? And if it is an interntaionally recognised sign or device then you should not moidify it else that would confuse people.
In my experience signage does not help in advising people on what action is to be taken with green boxes. Either through panic, or lack of it, they tend to take little notice of signage and as Retty points out there are other human behaviour issues associated with these types of device. New designs help with this issue but even still I would urge you to collar a few punters and ask them if they know what a green box does. I guarantee no one will.
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From reading this topic a lot of usefull infomation has been written that people can refer to as and when they need guidence, I would say that Cleveland has a recent knowledge of topic and has reserched since the topic started, Wiz, like very many members has a historical knowledge that cannot be taught in any class or from any collegue, it is this knowledge and experience that makes this forum so popular as us "youngsters" seek guidence, opinions will and do vary and always will.
From my pespective a green call point is a single action exit device, it is green in colour for a reason, once it is altered by any means that changes its identification or design it cannot be classed as an emergency door release as the manufacture intended its use.
We also use various means of assiting staff access but resticting residents for H&S reasons different customers have different policys that they adopt and manage inhouse.(FA signal to release doors as a minimum)
From Wiz's post I interpret that his point was;
Do you provide a means of escape for a select few (modified request to exit device)
Or provide a means of escape for everybody (green breakglass with correct signage)
By taking a green call point and modifying it in any way not suported by the manufacturer wouldn't be acceptable imo.
Modifying a RTE device is the industry norm.
A question, does the signs act have any relevance on green call points, I notice they are available with signage that seems to have been designated somewhere, if so would this override any of the topic opinions and give a definative answer ?
GregC, I'm sure you appreciate and understand that the term 'green box' would be understood in these forums to be an emergency door release switch and that emergency door release switches have a universal defined and understood purpose in the fire industry of being an easily identified, easily used method of releasing an electromagnetic door lock in an emergency by anyone who needs to.
My original post was to make it clear that M.R.'s use of the words 'green boxes can be disguised' should not be an invitation to the unwary to 'hide' this very important piece of equipment just because they had a reason to do so.
M.R. was talking about a disguised method of releasing the electromagnetic lock by persons autorised to do so. In these circumstances such a device should be called a 'disguised request to exit switch' and it's purpose should never considered to be an acceptable alternative to the purpose required of a green box/emergency door release switch.
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M.R. was talking about a disguised method of releasing the electromagnetic lock by persons autorised to do so. In these circumstances such a device should be called a 'disguised request to exit switch' and it's purpose should never considered to be an acceptable alternative to the purpose required of a green box/emergency door release switch.
Dr Wiz
You have lost me again now I'm afraid.
This issue has become very confused.
I thought you agreed exit switches could be used in security sensitive areas to perform the same function as a green box?
Can I just re-iterate that in some establishments such as nursing homes with dementia patients the use of green boxes in conspicuous locations would compromise security. In my experience DE patients can come to realise that by pressing the green box, the door will open and they can wander out of the care home.
Scenario 1 The care home's final exits are all held closed by magnetic door locks and inline with our brigade policy need to have emergency door release switches (which would ordinarily be the humble green box)
To combat the problem of patients activating the green boxes another method of opening the door in an emergency was accepted. It does the same job as a green box, but looks like a conventional light switch. Why is this any different in its function to a green box? Why would that not acceptable so long as rigid staff training was carried out? Remember the doors should release on the fire alarm, the light switch would only act as a failsafe means of opening the doors, and is not for general useage. I accept it isnt a green box its a switch, but it does do the same job.
Scenario 2 - A care home has put in the green boxes and finds that naughty service users (a bit like you Wiz trying to escape from Matron) have cottoned onto the fact they can open the doors. They therefore leave the green boxes in situ but cover them with a drape, or one of Clevelandfire pieces of art. The staff know where the green boxes are but the service users dont. So here we have hidden the green box (rather than disguised it)
I know you feel we are a bit slow the uptake regarding the points you made and you have re-iterated your point many times but perhaps if you put it across in another it might click into place for me, Im always happy to stand corrected if Im wrong.
Am not sure about our northern chum though, have you heard about his activities in the wind?.
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Mr M.R. I will try a final explanation!
I totally agree that the function of your 'disguised' switch has the same effect on the door as an emergency door release switch. My original post took issue with the terminology you used i.e. 'Green boxes can be disguised'. It is only this terminology that I have ever had issue with.
If we accept the term 'green box' to mean the generally well-known 'green emergency door release switch' I feel that is wrong to give the impression that these can ever be 'disguised'. because if you do, they are no longer 'green boxes' (green emergency door release switches)
In your scenarios (which I fully understand because I have been involved with such situations myself) your disguised switch is actually a 'disguised resquest to exit switch'. Your scenario does not actually include any emergency door release switch at all because the general understanding of the purpose of a 'green emergency door release switch' (green box) is that it is easily clearly visable, easily used and available for use by everyone, which your disguised switch obviously is not!
If I was to re-write the gist of your original post taking into account my humble opinions I would have written something like;
'Most situations involving an electromagnetic door look would require the provision of a green emergency door release switch for emergency overiding of the lock, if other methods failed in an emergency.
In situations where security may be compromised by the inclusion of such a switch but access through the door is necessary during normal or in emergency situations but only under the control of authorised persons, another door release switching method may be installed, if acceptable within a risk assessment. This switch would be for use by the authorised persons only by means of hiding or disguising the switch in some way, or by using a key or keypad/proximity type switching arrangement'
The above is the best I can do with the limited time and brainpower that I have available. If you still can't see the point I have been trying to make, then I can only aplogise for my failure and I regret the time and effort we have both put in to try and clarify our points of view.
I am now retiring to the safety of matron's bosom and begging that she mixes some Nitrazepam into the Northern fellow's nightcap.
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Ah. . . you see thats your fault Dr Wiz old chum - you said and I quote:-
M.R. was talking about a disguised method of releasing the electromagnetic lock by persons autorised to do so. In these circumstances such a device should be called a 'disguised request to exit switch' and it's purpose should never considered to be an acceptable alternative to the purpose required of a green box/emergency door release switch.
I.e. you said request to exit switches are not to be used for emergency door releases which is what thew me... but then I realised you were talking about Public Areas.
We of course both fully agree request to exit buttons can be used for emergency door release subject to a suitable risk assessment in araeas where they are to be used by authorised persons.
But should request to exit buttons be called that when used for emergency release? Perhaps "My bottom is on fire please relase now switches" would be more appropriate!!!!
I now fully understand where you are coming from and whoreheartidly agree with your description, and can only apologise to Matron for the extra time she has had to spend out of hours to watch over you in the computer suite whilst you try to explain to us dullards what you meant.
To show there are no hard feelings may I invite you over to our wing for a refreshing pint of horlicks and a hearty game of dominoes?
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In addition to all the above, as far as I am led to believe, the Green Box, once activated, (in the event of a fire or other emergency), will allow employees to safely egress from a final exit (secured from unauthorised outside access), should the normal electronic access/egress switch or device become disabled. More importantly, this will also permit external access for fire service personnel without the use of a key or any other similar security device; and as such, (as with the Red MCP counterpart), should be taken into account by the building manager, (or other responsible person), post-fire incident with regards to electronic re-set, replacing the "break-seal" and thus re-establishing security to the premises. Sorry but I feel this is a point worth making for those responsible for building security.
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Dont be sorry its a very important point
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This thread has been around the houses some of the time and some animosity but it has made me realised just how out of date I was on this subject. It’s prompted me to do much needed research to bring me up to date and was a great teaching aid. Thank you all very much, carry on being pedantic this is how we learn.
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i think you are referring to me and wiz's converstaion, my aim was never to be pedantic, instead it was to question his logic, but it was our pleasure anyway lol