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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mushy on May 19, 2008, 03:54:25 PM
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If a business has an old style fire alarm system with push button call points, no battery back up and also has no control panel can they be made to bring the alarm up to modern day standards?
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Under the fire safety order - Only if its not good enough for the risk
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What sort of business is it?
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If its being maintained , a risk assessment should pick up on the condition of system , and therefore be highlighted.
My advice to anyone over the years with an old set up is test it daily.
You can bang your head against a wall , the amount of times we have come across this , fire alarm equipment is always last on everyone's list , by what you describe no one in their right mind will want this old beast , but if you have advised by the maintenance company ,and a risk assessment it needs to come out , what are the chances it will happen , slim to none , so unless you make waves to an outside party , who is going to know.
I for one thought is was better when people were kept on their toes by the Brigade , doing a visit.
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Probably will not meet the signs and signals regs and would not protect relevant persons but as Kurnal has mentioned, what type of premises is it?
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it can't as it does not have battery back up
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Graeme, I need to be more succinct I think in my wording. 100 posts between us and perhaps I will get better.
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This signs and signals thing keeps coming up - what do the regs actually say?
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Wee brian
The actual bit is buried in the guidance L64, cost £10 or so.
Schedule One Part One
8 'Signs requiring some form of power must be provided with a guaranteed emergency supply in the event of a power cut, unless the hazard has thereby been eliminated'
Guidance Notes
Fire Alarms 105-114
Fire alarms are included in the term 'acoustic signal'
This is defined as' a coded sound signal which is released and transmitted by a device designed for that purpose, without the use of a human or artificial voice'
Quotes further info in BS5839 and BS7443
Enforced by HSE, usual rates apply depending on seriousness of offence
Came into force 21 December 1998
Must confess it came under my radar until a friendly?? I/O pointed it out
davo
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Am i right in thinking
Signs that require power but are only active upon the sounding of the fire alarm do not need to comply to the signs and signals regs
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I suppose an exisitng system could be upgraded with a battery etc. rather than stripping it all out
(assuming its electricaly possible)
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Graeme, I need to be more succinct I think in my wording. 100 posts between us and perhaps I will get better.
i sure you will. stick in and good luck ;)
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If a business has an old style fire alarm system with push button call points, no battery back up and also has no control panel can they be made to bring the alarm up to modern day standards?
Such a system is illegal under the Signs and Signals regs as they require battery back up.
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Thanks all
I'm not exactly sure of the size of the place as it was a casual (again) chat in the pub, I just know its a packaging suppliers. My thinking is, if the place needed a fire alarm before then it would need one now but any Fire Risk Assessment would include the necessity to update...but If its illegal under the Safety Signs and Signals then the question has been answered. Thanks
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Based on Davo's explanation a few posts above, I would say the recommendations would allow you to use fire alarm sounders with an artificial voice message on systems without standby power source!
I don't find the extract(s) provided as a conclusive explanation of these 'regs'.
To save myself a £10, is it possible for someone to quote the regs exactly?
Davo has quoted that part that states that fire alarms are included in 'acoustic signals' and also that part that states 'signs' require a guaranteed emergency supply. Where is the bit that says an 'acoustic signal' should be treated as a 'sign'?
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Just got this by googling 'Safety Signs and Signals Regulations....doesn't mention battery back up though
Fire warning systems
Where evacuation from buildings is needed, the Regulations require the fire alarm signal to be continuous. Fire alarms conforming to BS 5839: Part 1:1988 Fire detection and alarm systems for buildings do not need changing, nor do other acceptable means such as manually operated sounders, eg rotary gongs or hand bells.
http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firesign5.htm
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Do not trust all you find on the internet for this one I am trying desperately to find out where I got that information from. The page was revised some time ago as the result of a major debate with Jim Creak on this forum.
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Wiz
The bits in quotes are exact.
The guidance bits 105-114 I could post if I knew how, we are talking an A4 page but was general stuff not relevant to the question. I quoted all the relevant bits, I told you they were hidden!
Also Wiz remember the regs title- Safety Signs and SIGNALS regs 1996, hope this answers that bit.
Davo
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Can someone point me to the bit which states that a fire alarm signal is a requirement under the Regulations please?
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Just got this by googling 'Safety Signs and Signals Regulations....doesn't mention battery back up though
Fire warning systems
Where evacuation from buildings is needed, the Regulations require the fire alarm signal to be continuous. Fire alarms conforming to BS 5839: Part 1:1988 Fire detection and alarm systems for buildings do not need changing, nor do other acceptable means such as manually operated sounders, eg rotary gongs or hand bells.
http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firesign5.htm
I found the source http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm Phew!
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During recent years there has been a steady stream of questions to BFPSA
about the continued acceptability of mains powered fire alarm systems with
no standby power supply. Such systems were installed in large quantities
in the 1950s and 60s and were subsequently phased out, mainly as a result
of the Fire Precautions Act 1972 and the requirements of BS5839-1
While the number of these systems still operational is rapidly reducing,
owners of such systems that are still performing satisfactorily are often
reluctant to replace them. In most cases, however, they no longer comply
with the requirements of current legislation.
The Health and Safety (Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 relate to the
requirements of safety signs and signals used at work.
Clause 2, Interpretation, of these Regulations states within Section (1) the
following text:
““fire safety sign” means a sign (including an illuminated sign or an acoustic
signal) which –
(i) provides information of escape routes and emergency exits in
case of fire;
(ii) provides information on the identification or location of fire
fighting equipment; or
(iii) gives warning in case of fire”
As a fire alarm may be signalled by a visual or audible signal, such devices
are included within the Regulations.
Schedule 1, Part 1, Section 8 of the Regulations states:
“8 Signs requiring some form of power must be provided with a guaranteed
emergency supply in the event of a power cut, unless the hazard has
thereby been eliminated.”
Page 2 of 2
By taking the requirements of these clauses into account, the use of mains powered fire
alarm systems with no standby power supply is not acceptable if they are provided as a
means of meeting health and safety requirements in a place of work. In such places, fire
alarm systems complying with the requirements of BS5839-1: 1988 or 2002 would
normally be recommended.
FURTHER SOURCES OF INFORMATION
The Health and Safety (Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 (Statutory Instrument 1996
No. 341).
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Thanks TW and AnthonyB
Blimey talk about confusing...
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm ...says you don't need to change it
and Anthony B's post says you do!
I think I need a lie dowm :)
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Thanks TW and AnthonyB
Blimey talk about confusing...
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm ...says you don't need to change it
and Anthony B's post says you do!
I think I need a lie dowm :)
Go rest your weary head Mushy
I think this boils down to one simple fact.
Do you or do you not want the fire alarm to continue to be capable of operationeven if there is mains failure
I think in all but a few cases the answer would be yes. Risk Assessment time!
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Thanks TW and AnthonyB
Blimey talk about confusing...
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm ...says you don't need to change it
and Anthony B's post says you do!
I think I need a lie dowm :)
It also says that you don't neccessarily need it at all.
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg184.htm says you don't need to change it and Anthony B's post says you do! :)
I think AntB is saying mains powered fire alarm systems with no standby power supply no longer comply with the requirements of current legislation. Also the system would not comply with BS 5839: Part 1:1988/2002.
The HSE says any system that complies with BS 5839: Part 1:1988 does not need changing because in my opinion it does comply with the regulations.
Therefore by inference any systems that do not comply with BS 5839: Part 1:1988/2002, needs changing because it does not comply with the regulations.
Maybe :rolleyes:
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I disagree. A mains power only fire alarm falls short of the legal minimum required by the Safety Signs Regns. A BS 5839 installation should exceed this legal minimum.
It is not logical (Captain) to then say only BS 5839 is adequate. A back up power supply will meet the legal requirement. It may make more sense to go for a BS5839 but is not the only way to meet the legal minimum.
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Wiz
for info, managed to paste exact wording (use the tenner for a beer will you otherwise I might think you are a bit of a skinflint)
What is a fire safety sign? (regulation 2)
90 A fire safety sign is defined in regulation 2(1) as:
a sign (including an illuminated sign or an acoustic signal) which:
(a) provides information on escape routes and emergency exits in case of fire;
(b) provides information on the identification or location of fire-fighting equipment; or
(c) gives warning in case of fire.
When are fire safety signs required?
91 Duties on employers to provide these signs will mostly arise from the Fire
Precautions Act 1971 and other fire legislation. The effect here of the Safety
Signs Regulations will in most cases be to describe the types of sign which may
be used. Often the enforcing authority for fire safety will determine where to
locate the signs (eg if a fire certificate is required). In other cases employers will
need to provide signs depending on the outcome of their assessment of risks to
health and safety (see paragraphs 12-15). If changes to existing signs are
proposed and a fire certificate is in force, check first with your enforcing
authority responsible for issuing the certificate.
Fire alarms
105 The aim of a fire alarm is to ensure that people in the workplace are
alerted to any outbreak of fire well before it becomes life threatening. The
warning system sets in motion a planned routine for evacuating the premises.
106 Fire alarms are included in the term .acoustic signal.. The definition in
the Regulations is .a coded sound signal which is released and transmitted by
a device designed for that purpose, without the use of a human or artificial
voice.. In practice it is important that the acoustic signal for a fire alarm:
(a) has a sound level considerably higher than the level of ambient noise so
that the warning signal can be heard throughout the workplace (see also
paragraph 71);
(b) is easily recognisable and distinct from other acoustic signals and ambient
noise; and
(c) is continuous for evacuation (but see also paragraph 112).
107 The method of giving warning of fire will vary from workplace to
workplace. However, it needs to be suitable for the premises. In some cases,
such as small workplaces, the fire alarm may consist of manually operated
sounders (eg rotary gongs or handbells). In larger workplaces it may take the
form of an electrical fire-warning system (eg conforming to BS 5839 Fire
detection and alarm systems in buildings).
108 The Regulations permit incorporation of a public address system with the
warning signal, which may also be accompanied by an illuminated sign (eg a
flashing light).
Guidance
109 Experience has shown that good notation is a particularly effective aid to
safe and speedy evacuation. Therefore, in workplaces where members of the
public are present, it can be a significant help if the warning signal for evacuation
is supplemented by use of the public address system to give clear and concise
instructions. To be effective, messages will normally need to be prepared in
advance and in some cases in appropriate languages. The fire warning system
needs to activate this message. Ideally this will cancel any amplified music,
soundtrack or other announcements. Similarly, if a public address system is used
to transmit the alarm signal, or can be incorporated with the signal, it will need to
take priority and override other facilities of the system. Further information is
given in BS 5839. In addition BS 7443 Specification for sound systems for emergency
purpose11 provides advice on sound systems for emergency purposes.
110 Ensure that a sounder, or loudspeaker of a public address system, is not
located in such a position that communication with the fire brigade is hindered,
eg too near a reception area from which the emergency call may be made.
111 Many fire warning systems are single stage, ie when the alarm sounds
simultaneous evacuation takes place. However, some large workplaces may
have a two-stage warning system.
112 In these systems a continuous evacuation signal is given in certain parts
of the workplace, ie those near the origin of the fire, while an intermittent or
alert signal meaning .stand-by. is received elsewhere. These systems allow a
progressive or phased evacuation of the workplace so that congestion along
emergency escape routes is minimised.
113 If a staged fire warning system is being considered it is advisable to check
with your enforcing authority for fire safety before installation.
114 Your enforcing authority for fire safety (see paragraph 115) may specify
certain maintenance requirements for your tire warning system, but in general all
fire alarms will need to be regularly maintained. This is necessary to ensure they
work properly and can be heard throughout the workplace. For manually operated
sounders (see paragraph 107) this is a relatively simple task where the necessary
general skills could well be .in-house.. With respect to electrical fire warning
systems, however, it is important that they are serviced by someone who is
competent to carry out the work; that is, someone with the appropriate skills,
qualifications and/or experience. Your installer may be able to advise about
necessary maintenance, alternatively contact your enforcing authority for fire safety.
Enforcing authority for fire safety
115 Further advice on the application of these Regulations to fire safety signs
can be obtained from your enforcing authority for fire safety, that is, from fire
officers, environmental health officers or building control officers of local
authorities, or in cases where the Fire Certificates (Special Premises)
Regulations 1976 apply(a), HSE inspectors.
Information, instruction and training
116 Ensure that your employees fully understand the meaning of fire safety
signs in the workplace and how to give warning in case of fire. Supervisors and
others who have been given particular responsibility in an emergency need to
be clear about the action to take if the fire alarm is sounded.
(a) These Regulations deal with the provision of fire certificates at certain specified premises
and are enforced by the Health and Safety Executive.
Hope this solves the puzzle!
davo
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The HSE weblink is to on line guidance, not the text of the statute. And it only says BS5839 systems need not be replaced - as mains only systems do not comply with BS 5839 they are not included here and as they do not have secondary power must go
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I disagree. A mains power only fire alarm falls short of the legal minimum required by the Safety Signs Regns. A BS 5839 installation should exceed this legal minimum.
It is not logical (Captain) to then say only BS 5839 is adequate. A back up power supply will meet the legal requirement. It may make more sense to go for a BS5839 but is not the only way to meet the legal minimum.
Point taken but how would you provided this back up power supply. UPS using batteries or generator and would it be economically viable also is this technically possible.
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In my opinion, AnthonyB's answer is more specific and detailed than the web link. And he is correct.
The law on this matter is quite simple really - fire alarms in places of work must have a battery backup.
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In my opinion, AnthonyB's answer is more specific and detailed than the web link. And he is correct.
The law on this matter is quite simple really - fire alarms in places of work must have a battery backup.
Unless they are rotary gongs! ;)
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Thats true!
I suppose you could argue that the back up power supply may be another employee.....
or a break glass cabinet next to the gong- 'in case of fire break glass for spinach' :)
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BS 5839 advises that gongs etc are only suitable in small single storey open plan places of work. So on that basis, once it has been rung, everyone should hear it immediatly anyway, so battery back up is probably irrelevant for such an environment. But let's not over complicate this - fire alarm systems in places of work without battery backup are illegal (except gongs).
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BS 5839 advises that gongs etc are only suitable in small single storey open plan places of work. So on that basis, once it has been rung, everyone should hear it immediatly anyway, so battery back up is probably irrelevant for such an environment. But let's not over complicate this - fire alarm systems in places of work without battery backup are illegal (except gongs).
Yeah of course they are illegal
Are you guys seriously trying to tell me an electro mechancial fire alarm that doesn't work in the event of power failure is compliant
Behave
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heres a wee thing a have had for years straight from the horses mouth..
H+S (safety signs and signals)
Page 32 paragraph 8
signs requiring some form of power must be provided with a guaranteed emergency supply in the event of a power cut.
What is a safety sign? (regulation 2)
page 23 paragraph 90-a fire safety sign is defined in regulation 2(1) as
A- sign(including an illuminated sign or an acoustic signal which gives warning in case of a fire....
Page 25 paragraph 106- Fire alarms are included in the term "acoustic signal"
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Thanks guys for all your posts confirming the wording of the regs.
My summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.
1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.
2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source.
My next questions are;
a) What is the scope of influence of the H + S signs and signals regulations i.e to which type of premises do they apply?
b) Is there any difference in law in failing to comply with a 'regulation' such as the H + S signs and signals than for failing to comply with a 'recommendation' i.e say BS5839?
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Wiz
The 1974 Act describes premises as
"includes any place and, in particular, includes
a) any vehicle, vessell, aircraft or hovercraft
b) any installation on land (including the foreshore and other land intermittently covered by water), any offshore installation, and any other installation (whether floating, or resting on the seabed or the subsoil thereof, or resting on other land covered with water or the subsoil thereof, and
c) any tent or moveable structure
phew!
In regard to your next question, failing to comply with BS is OK if you can demonstrate equivalent or superior precautions in place. The courts will use BS as a best practice guide should it get that far.
davo
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Thanks guys for all your posts confirming the wording of the regs.
My summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.
1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.
2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source.
My next questions are;
a) What is the scope of influence of the H + S signs and signals regulations i.e to which type of premises do they apply?
b) Is there any difference in law in failing to comply with a 'regulation' such as the H + S signs and signals than for failing to comply with a 'recommendation' i.e say BS5839?
Failure to comply with the law is a criminal offence. Failure to comply with a recommendation is not but could be viewed as negligence or a failure of duty of care unless you can show that the recommendation was not relevant or that you applied an alternative viable resolution.
You cannot be prosecuted for not providing fire doors to protect a stairway. But you can be prosecuted for failing to provide an adequate means of escape (or words to that effect) if that is what the legislation requires. The reason you failed to provide an adequate means of escape could be because you did not provide fire protection to the stairway. It is up to the enforcement authority to demonstrate to the court that you failed to provide an adequte means of escape because you did not protect a stairway with fire doors. Your defence would be that the protection of the stairway by fire doors was not necessary to provide an adequate means of escape as you had complied with the law by using another an alternative viable means of providing an adequate means of escape.
There is little legislation which specifically requires the provision of fire doors.
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The phrase reasonably practicable apears in the legislation. There is wealth of decided cases on what reasonable practicbility is.
You can only be prosecuted fo rbreach of the Act or regulation or order. Evidence that you have complied with a well established standard (eg BS or EN etc) is highly persuasive evidence that you have done all that is reasonably practicable.
However it does not follow that failure to follow a BS means you are guilty. The defendant is entitled to demonstrate that
they used other techniques to achieve all reasonably practicable precautions. Eg Early machinery guarding BS docs did not include use of photo-electric beams linked to machine brakes etc as a means of ensuring safety. At the time they were not effectivaly covered by BS They are now.
Nevertheless employers were using them and not the old "mechanical" methods. So an employer ignoring BS could still show compliance with law.
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A back up power supply will meet the legal requirement. It may make more sense to go for a BS5839 but is not the only way to meet the legal minimum.
If you added a back up power supply like a UPS, assuming it is possible, would it then meet the regulations or would there be other problems?
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In my opinion yes it is legal. The RA identifies a justifiable requirement for an electric fire alarm. (not a gong or air horn as I have seen in a tiny one room branch library) The RP is in trouble if they don't implement the recommendations of the RA. The will find it very difficult to show they have taken all reasonably practicable general fire precaution if they ignore their own risk assessment. (It is the RPs Risk assessment even if a consultant prepares it.)
We now have a legal requirement to provide an electric fire alarm and the safety signs regns kick in. The alarm must have a back up power supply. Any UPS will meet this requirement.
I am waiting for an RP to argue that a Risk assessment wasn't suitable and sufficient because it significantly overestimated the risk and the precautions were excessive and they therefore did not implement it. I don't imagine the courts will give much support to someone arguing their own assessment was excessive. However I wait for the contested £Ms compensation claim.
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TW
the law does not specify how you back up, only that you do.
An UPS, properly maintained and serviced, in my opinion (v humble) would comply.
As Martin says, reasonably practicable (yet another RP!) kicks in.
You balance practicality, cost, time, effort etc against consequences.
In this case the is no doubt it MUST happen
In Martins last post, How then can they sit in judgement? Only a fool would try this on. On second thoughts........
davo
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Hi I have just looked at a Ziton Addressable (ZP3) panel. and was wondering if anyone knows how to access the engineers level. the panel comes up with the text engineers key not entered ?? would this be a 4 digit code like other systems or an actual key? As within the panel there is circuit board with what looks like a Lowe & Fletcher type key unit on it. If it is a Lowe & Fletcher type key does anyone know the key number?
thanks for any help.
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Thanks again for further explanations/opinions.
My new summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.
1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.
2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source. The type of emergency standby power source is not specified in the regulations.
3) Failure to comply with the regulations is an offence against a law and not a recommendation
4) The regulations cover fire alarms in every type of building including temporary structures on or off-shore including those on or in tidal waters, those that float or those that rest on the sea-bed. They also cover fire alarm systems in stuctures that roll, fly, float or hover.
So there you have it - mains only powered fire alarm systems are not allowed anywhere otherwise you are breaking the law!
Is the above a fair summary?
Does it include mains only single-point fire detectors with alarm sounders in domestic premises?
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Thanks again for further explanations/opinions.
My new summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.
1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.
2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source. The type of emergency standby power source is not specified in the regulations.
3) Failure to comply with the regulations is an offence against a law and not a recommendation
4) The regulations cover fire alarms in every type of building including temporary structures on or off-shore including those on or in tidal waters, those that float or those that rest on the sea-bed. They also cover fire alarm systems in stuctures that roll, fly, float or hover.
So there you have it - mains only powered fire alarm systems are not allowed anywhere otherwise you are breaking the law!
Is the above a fair summary?
Does it include mains only single-point fire detectors with alarm sounders in domestic premises?
Wiz
You're summary sounds pretty much bang on the money!
With regards to domestic mains only detection, I think all new installations are required to have battery back now.
Im not what happenes in teh case of older domestic systems that are mains powerred only. One pressumes that there is no enforcing authority who would be able to take action on this or require them to be upgraded.
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The safety signs regs as for virtually all H&S legn* specifically exclude domestic premises. So no legal requirement in domestic premises. (There is no RP in domestic premises so no duty holder to charge any way.)
However with a feeling of deja vu the situaion in common areas of flats and HMOs is not coverd by domestic premises definitions.
* Gas Safety regns will include landlord duties in what otherwise would be domestic premises.
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Dr Wiz
I'm sure matron would be pleased to know your marbles are still intact!
davo
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Dr Wiz
I'm sure matron would be pleased to know your marbles are still intact!
davo
davo, she checks that they are every day! Prof. K and Greg C are obviously jealous of my relationship with the Matron and try to get theirs checked as well. Evidently, they are too small to measure, she says.
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Hi I have just looked at a Ziton Addressable (ZP3) panel. and was wondering if anyone knows how to access the engineers level. the panel comes up with the text engineers key not entered ?? would this be a 4 digit code like other systems or an actual key? As within the panel there is circuit board with what looks like a Lowe & Fletcher type key unit on it. If it is a Lowe & Fletcher type key does anyone know the key number?
thanks for any help.
ducco, you should really have posted this as new topic under technical because it has ended up in the middle of posts about another subject.
I've waved my wand over my magic ball whilst chanting the phrase 'Ziton password' and saw two numbers floating around in the ball i.e 0923 and 2000 . I can't guarantee these numbers but just this morning I did the same for someone else wanting passwords for Rafiki CD200 and the number that came up worked first time! let me know how you get on and If either of them work, I'll try the magic ball again using the phrase 'lotto numbers' !