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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on May 19, 2008, 07:48:04 PM
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I have 3 stainless steel water fire extinguishers that were purchased in 1987 and have been serviced annually. During a recent service, the agent refuse to conduct work on these extinguishers due to "wrong colour" - stainless steel with red "Water" commercial produced labels.
I understand these can be legally retained until they can no longer be serviced, or are unserviceable. Could you kindly advise and recommend a course of action - service / replace / paint red etc.
It seems such a shame to replace units which are fully functional.
I received this enquiry recently and it seems a little harsh any comments. I have asked for more information but not given a response yet.
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The BS is recommendation only and these extinguishers providing they are serviceable are ok for use. It seems an agent is trying it on. Please look at previous threads on the subject of stainless steel extinguishers. I think Anthony Buck summed it all up quite concisely.
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We are more than happy to service these extinguishers as long as parts are available for them.
Most are Amerex, so parts not a problem.
Some e.g. Badger or Abtex - genuine parts no longer available.
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I did a search and found 4 threads thanks jokar I remembered the painting the extinguishers to match the decor thread but not the others. Lesson learned start with a search.
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Change the service contactor, not the extinguishers. British Standards are just recommendations, as long as your fire risk assessment concludes that the ones you have are OK and it is done properly, then you have no problem.
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Yes agreed. Either the engineer is misinformed or is trying it on. Its always good to remind people like that that you can take your money elsewhere....infact might find the engineer has a miraculous change of heart you did!
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Sack the service company they are trying to rip you off. Any engineer out there who doesn't know the regulations and recommendations (Ask him which Part of BS5306 states a S/S unit is not legal) should not be carrying out the work or they do and are trying it on.
Either way, pay for the work carried out and include a letter cancelling the contract.
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Most has already been said here & by me in similar old threads.
There is nothing wrong with a 1987 Stainless Steel Water unless:
a) It has a dent in the cylinder (or a deep gouge), or similar damage to the threads, etc
b) The stainless has been scratched and corrosion has taken place
c) The unit cannot retain pressure due to a valve leak in the head (or the head/gauge is impact damaged) and either a new head/valve is no longer available (e.g. Abtex) or would end up costing more than a new extinguisher.
In other words it has become unsafe for use or un-servicable due to lack of parts. Just needs annual Basic Services & 5 yearly Extended Services like anything else.
Stainless steels were preferred by some not just for appearance, but for long life & durability, hence the MoD using Chubb S/S waters, powders & foams for over 20 years after stocks of the 70's/early 80's Rampart (also chubb) cartridge & chemical stuff wore out.
It wasn't one of the same group of companies that likes putting little square yellow 'corrective action required' stickers on extinguishers left, right & centre was it (I liked the way they used easy peel adhesive on them - makes my job of ripping them off again far simpler!)
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Are you sure it's just the colour that's wrong ?
If they're 20+ years old, the linings probably lifted or split.
I joke not. I have on file a copy of a rec. report from a certain BAFE registered SP 101 company(c/w BAFE registered ST 104 technicians) stating just that. And because they are one of the most respected names in the business it must be true. :D
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Go on, do tell us...!!
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For those not in the know, the joke is that Stainless Steel extinguishers don't have plastic linings as they don't need them!
There is a fair chance a poly lining has lifted after 20 years, but have still found some 70's waters with the linings going strong and with a very small number of 60's waters I've still in service they'll never loose their plastic lining - as they haven't got one (zinc lining of the Universal (Royal Navy) Water extinguishers from when Nu Swift kit was a cut above the rest)
I wonder who the BAFE company was too - some suspects come to mind.....
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For those not in the know, the joke is that Stainless Steel extinguishers don't have plastic linings as they don't need them!
There is a fair chance a poly lining has lifted after 20 years, but have still found some 70's waters with the linings going strong and with a very small number of 60's waters I've still in service they'll never loose their plastic lining - as they haven't got one (zinc lining of the Universal (Royal Navy) Water extinguishers from when Nu Swift kit was a cut above the rest)
I wonder who the BAFE company was too - some suspects come to mind.....
Yes - indeed
I wish we could name and shame.
Challenge them all the way Fire Extinguisher companies are the biggest offenders when it comes to Fire Safety related scams and it has to stop. FOr god sake any layman reading this , if youre fire extinguisher "engineer" (technician even none of them are engineers in the true sense of the word) make recoommendations run it past this forum first.
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Unfortunately the biggest companies with the most "recognised qualifications" seem to be the worst offenders in my experience, but no-one has any power to do anything about the rogue companies because a lot of them are on the committee!
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I have 3 stainless steel water fire extinguishers that were purchased in 1987 and have been serviced annually. During a recent service, the agent refuse to conduct work on these extinguishers due to "wrong colour" - stainless steel with red "Water" commercial produced labels.
The engineer shouldn't have refused to service these extinguishers but if these are not the only water extinguishers on the premises then:
Extract from;
BRITISH STANDARD BS 5306-8:2000
Fire extinguishing installations and equipment on premises
Part 8: Selection and installation of portable fire extinguishers - Code of practice
4.4 Avoidance of multiplicity of types
To avoid confusion, all extinguishers installed in any one floor of a building or single occupancy should have the same method of operation and if intended for the same function should all be similar in shape, appearance and colour. These precautions apply equally to temporary replacement units supplied during maintenance operations (see BS 5306-3, 8.5.3).
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I have checked this out.
The premises are holiday apartments. One water stainless steel fire extinguisher is located on each level corridor (ground floor, first floor and second floor). There are no other fire extinguishers in this part of the building. The stainless steel extinguishers are pre-pressurised with pressure gauge.
At the rear there are two self-contained apartments in an extension, not connected internally to the main building. As they considered these too far from the main building in case of emergency, they have installed a small dry powder extinguisher in each.
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Go on, do tell us...!!
(http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s34/smilies-6388.png)
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I received this email today
All three stainless steel units have been serviced and certified with no problem by ****** Fire Services Ltd.
The agent had no reservations at all with the issue, or about the colour.
Once again, many thanks to your good self and all who responded on the “Net” for a satisfactory outcome.
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Glad to hear it ended satisfactorily.
The BS recommendation (& it is just that) is grounds to replace if you have loads of money (like Sainsbury's who replaced every single cream AFFF with red EN3 in 1997/8 in one fell swoop regardless of age & took advantage of the 'super foam' extinguishers around to only put one new extinguisher at each fire point that had two*).
But otherwise it realistically has to be gradual - after all if you use extinguishers with clear labelling as required by the former BS5423 & BSEN3 and also correctly train your staff, then the colours are not as much of an issue. The clause is partly a hang over from the pre BS days of the FOC rules & FPA guidance sheets when to set off a water extinguisher you might need to do any of the following:
- Invert it
- Invert it & strike a plunger
- Strike a plunger
- remove a cap/stirrup & strike a plunger
- remove a cotter pin, lift and release a hammer at the side of the extinguisher
- screw down a valve
- uncork the container, fill the attached cup & throw at the fire
which is where the need for consistency across a building originated (and in the early days other than Nu Swift they were all coloured red then)
*They used to have two 13A rated Thorn or Kidde Thorn branded TG AFFF foams at a fire point, a practice dating back to the early 80's when L&G were their contractor, but replaced these with a single 27A rated Gloria AFFF & Imprex extinguisher
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Some very large servicing companies are replacing extinguishers due to them having reached their "20 year lifespan", wasn't this rumoured to have been considered for the revised BS 5306:3 or somewhere else i seem to vaguely recall?
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Some very large servicing companies are replacing extinguishers due to them having reached their "20 year lifespan", wasn't this rumoured to have been considered for the revised BS 5306:3 or somewhere else i seem to vaguely recall?
Part of the same rumour (a few years ago) was that extinguishers were only to be serviced on a 2 year basis.
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Part of the same rumour (a few years ago) was that extinguishers were only to be serviced on a 2 year basis.
This is the norm in Germany.
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Only Co2's have a limited lifespan - 30 yrs: Pressure test ten years from new. 2nd pressure test 10 years following first. Scrap 10 years following 2nd test. The bodies are only allowed to be stamped three times: Manufacturing info counts as one then the two pressure tests.
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A draft Euro servicing standard and a draft revision of 5306-3 looked at a 20 year life, but this was not adopted.
Both are being looked at again however and the maximum life and the service intervals are being revisited. The fire trade trembles as 2 years could come in - but at the moment so could 6 monthly - it's a work in progress.
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I've started to see re-furbished water & foam extinguishers appearing supplied by other servicing companies (BFC and FETA approved by the way) with the linings literally hanging out!
These extinguishers are generally glover 2000 range over 20 years old, perhaps a 20 year limit might not be a bad idea. Although the industry professional bodies shouldn't be so casual as to who they let in, and should audit their members work.
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These extinguishers are generally glover 2000 range over 20 years old, perhaps a 20 year limit might not be a bad idea. Although the industry professional bodies shouldn't be so casual as to who they let in, and should audit their members work.
Quite clearly shouldn't be supplied by anyone but if the Draft BS5306 Part 3 2008 comes into force then with the destruction of plastic headcaps over 5 years old, by the time they have supplied a new Series 2000 headcap the cost will be too prohibitve to be worthwhile.
http://www.bafe.org.uk/common/Pdfs/General_News/FSH_2_07_0075_BS_5306-3_07_30152563_DC.pdf
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Whilst working for a certain Tyco firm in Newton Heath, Monchuster we were instructed to replace all S2000 H/C's at a cost to the punter of (if memory serves me) of £12 each. We were getting them in from TG at a fraction of that each. So the replacement cost need not be prohibitive (ie £12), I suppose it depends on your work ethics. That plus the fact that S2000 are reducing in numbers being replaced with metal headed stored pressure types.
If there was a 20 year life on portables you can guarantee the replacements with new extinguishers would be on a huge scale for a good couple of years. ( increasing manufacture production as well as service companies turnover and engineer commissions) Is this not just the latest sales and production "Great" sales idea now the EN3 clear out is more or less complete?
The cost to the end user would neither be fair nor neccessary as the majority of firms out there will take full advantage of yet another method to "legitimately" remove and replace customers kit. Until of course a savvy sales rep develops an all in contract which given the alternatives would prove an attractive option.
I think a 2 year service span is too long, bearing in mind a good service engineer should be surveying and advising during his service ensuring all changes are covered, staff changes (fire training oportunities), signage updating, repairing/ recharging damaged kit and providing the extended service to BS.
In certain circumstances a 6 monthly is practical. Is this not an option already available with BS recommending no longer than 12 months?
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Yes, 6 monthly is an option, you could do a basic service every week if you wanted and exceed the BS minimums - one hospital we recently FRA's has 3 monthly services (by it's own trained engineer).
If the plastic heads rule comes in I can see most places will do one of two things- 1) Ignore it 2) Use it to scrap extinguishers. Although it isn't necessarily prohibitive to replace if you are being honest, the logistics and costs of buying, stocking (dead money until used) and putting on the vans all the different types, plus the time for doing the refit will put a lot of firms off.
I can see why the rule is suggested, but how many plastic heads that didn't actually have visible 'weathering' or damage have ever failed? It will be even more reason to bin any Nu Swift powders (if you aren't Nu Swift) as they are dear enough to refill let alone buy a new headcap for them.
A 20 year rule will result in a mass of sales from the BS followers and remove decent kit as you say. With the advent of the dirt cheap eastern extinguishers why not go further and make them all 5 year disposables, after all you can buy a new powder for the same price as filling it these days...
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A 20 year rule will result in a mass of sales from the BS followers and remove decent kit as you say.
AnthonyB. The 20 year rule that you mention. What is there in the written word because all I have is what I have been told and that is that HSE recommends that extinguishers should have a complete manufacturers overhaul every 20 years. Nothing in BS.
With the advent of the dirt cheap eastern extinguishers why not go further and make them all 5 year disposables, after all you can buy a new powder for the same price as filling it these days...
The problem with cheap extinguishers being supplied to the end user without being commissioned by a competent person is that they won't have any idea whether the supposed extinguisher they have just removed from the box is a fire extinguisher if it was faulty.
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Either the engineer is misinformed or is trying it on.
It makes you wonder, my first thoughts were "he's down on his sales target and needs to start getting them from somewhere/anywhere".
Probably works for the same company that replaces fire blankets at 10 years regardless of condition.
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Whilst working for a certain Tyco firm in Newton Heath, Monchuster we were instructed to replace all S2000 H/C's at a cost to the punter of (if memory serves me) of £12 each. We were getting them in from TG at a fraction of that each. So the replacement cost need not be prohibitive (ie £12), I suppose it depends on your work ethics. That plus the fact that S2000 are reducing in numbers being replaced with metal headed stored pressure types.
Sand and Blood young Philip. Is there any firm left that you haven't worked for ? :lol:
It must have been a while ago because the things are £12.45 to buy in now.
Personally, I want ALL plastic headed extinguishers withdrawn from service forth with.
Why ?
In no particular order of preference:
1. There is a guy (former Kidde branch manager) who works down the road from me with a beautiful 3 inch half moon scar 1 inch below his eye socket caused by a S2000 9kg DP head cap exploding in his face.
2. No plastic headed extinguisher has been passed for CE marking. In fact the S2000 model was laughed out of the door when put forward by you know who.
3. I have in my files 2 coroners reports of people killed when these heads sheared off under pressure (2 different manufacturers, same type of bakelite head c(r)ap).
4. There are still countless service vendors out there who either choose to ignore or can't be bothered to find out that any slight discolouration (greying) of the black plastic headcap means that the thing is weakened, knackered, kaputt and likely to injure someone when the appliance is operated. There is no "MAYBE" involved here.
5. What basic engineering principle comes into play that says a degradating plastic should be used as a pressure retaining device ? Said pressure being 195psi+ upon operation. And left in situ degrading for the next 10+ years.
6. I've had a Chubb 9kg DP explode on me due to a sheared headcap (fortunately held in an upright vice on a work bench, therefore I wasn't standing over it). And it scared me witless (and ruined my workshop).
7. Many sites are renewing their lighting to halogen style downlighters in corridors, offices etc. the UV from these lights are guaranteed to kill a plastic headcap withinin 6 weeks. Remember, us poor vendors are there only once a year.
8. I've told all my lads to mark "unfit for service" anything with a plastic headcap at next service and we now issue a warning and disclaimer should anyone wish to keep them. Chubb WS, Glover 2000, Norfolk, I care not. I've had enough of the stuff.
I will take previous comments about fleecing customers the other way. I see one or two firms involved in the sport, but I see far more involved in the opposite. Service vendors doing absolutely nothing to equipment because they live in fear that any extra cost will lose them the contract. Neglect is still fleecing the client (of the service he deserves) and I would put the amount of those companies way ahead of those out to make higher profits. Probably about 10 to 1 in the HPE trade.
Weren't we talking about stainless steel kit ? :P
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The problem of plastic headcap ejections is compounded by the threads being easily stripped or damaged, specifically on the dry powder models, where an inexperienced/ham-fisted technician can take several attempts to re-install the headcap.
We do not service S2000 powder extinguishers as a matter of course, but water & foam extinguishers are fine provided the heads & threads are in good condition and there is no degredation of the plastic visible.
As there are fewer of these in service each year, the problem will die a death with the extinguishers.
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(back off hols)
The 20 year rule I quoted came from one of the drafts of the new proposed version of BS5306-3 and also an older draft of a Euro standard that never surfaced. There is no current upper limit.
The argument against plastic heads is furthered by the existing BS scrapping the old plastic bodied Powder extinguishers seen from Betterware, Angus, Pyrene, Rampart & Chubb (all from same manufacturer) - if they are unsafe because you cannot verify the pressure safety of the shell, then plastic head-caps must be the same.
I've had the plastic spray nozzles shear off the last generation of S2000 spray foams and fly like baton rounds on several occasions even with an apparently clear nozzle.
Yes plastic head threads can take a ragging if you misalign them, which affects their efficacy.
Plastic head extinguishers will be around a while as not everyone will be proactive in condemning them and some manufacturers still use Ceo-Deux plastic heads for their cartridge models (they do have metal rings though, but most of the head is still plastic)
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I am new to this forum so hello to everyone.
Although i have found a lot of information on here credible, I must say i am disappointed in the comments regarding Thomas Glover, I have dealt with them for years and have always found them to be great, we are always quick in this country to pull down succesful companys and people ...but very slow sometimes non existent in praise.
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I too have dealt with TG for years, this is why i'm disappointed with them now!
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But why ???
Am i missing something
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2. No plastic headed extinguisher has been passed for CE marking. In fact the S2000 model was laughed out of the door when put forward by you know who.
I haven't looked too closely at the Nu Swift 6000 range with palstic headcaps for CE markings and don't know when the stopped making them but could they be CE marked? What about the Gloria plastic headcap with a metal ring?
Would you Condemn a Plastic shroud covering a brass valve (like certain Chubb extinguishers) that are suffering from UVD or would you only Condemn plastic parts subject to pressure?
3. I have in my files 2 coroners reports of people killed when these heads sheared off under pressure (2 different manufacturers, same type of bakelite head c(r)ap).
Is it possible to have copies of these reports or can you tell me where I can find them?
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I haven't looked too closely at the Nu Swift 6000 range with palstic headcaps for CE markings and don't know when the stopped making them but could they be CE marked?
(http://img212.imagevenue.com/loc533/th_70628_ext4_122_533lo.jpg) (http://img152.imagevenue.com/loc1114/th_70629_ext7_122_1114lo.jpg)
They look metallic to me. May I suggest that the plastic ones may have disappeared around about (CE Year) 2002. Just a guess.
What about the Gloria plastic headcap with a metal ring?
Model Number ?
Is the metal ring the pressure retaining part ?
Would you Condemn a Plastic shroud covering a brass valve (like certain Chubb extinguishers) that are suffering from UVD
Nope, I would replace the shroud if spares were available.
or would you only Condemn plastic parts subject to pressure?
Yup !
Is it possible to have copies of these reports
Nope ! Never (and not going to be) copied. I am lead to believe that there is a 75 year sensitivity closure on reports such as these and I shouldn't really have them.
or can you tell me where I can find them?
My (home) filing cabinet, second drawer down, under "not for copying" :D
I wouldn't worry anyways nim. All will be revealed in the new 5306 pt 3 ;)
PM thingy sent...........'coz now we're in the realms of "Top Secret - Eyes Only"
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Gloria & total cartridge extinguishers currently use the Ceo-deux plastic head, with a metal ring (but pressure does run through the main plastic body too) and are CE marked.
http://www.rotarex.com/catalogs/firetec-powder-water-valves-4-12kg2.pdf
(scroll down to page 15)
This head was also used in the 1980's by the now departed Firesnow, Merryweather & FPS/Firemark and by Allied Safety until Chubb took over in '98/99
ANAF small powders appear to be plastic valves and still CE marked - these are still sold in the UK by Jactone and various boat chandlers.
Can't remember the most recently dated 'traditional' E600x nu swift head before the chinese stuff seen above, but will keep my eyes open