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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: lingmoor on June 02, 2008, 02:28:52 PM
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Could anyone give their experiences of companies that have been slow to make the payments for your services, what is the time you give from invoice to payment and what action you would take if the invoice is not acknowledged. Thanks.
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I always state in contracts that the terms are 30 days, but that is unheard of. I reckon 50% pay between 60 and 90 days, many take 6 months and a few never pay. I use a no win no fee debt recovery agency if it goes over about 9 months. I have had many bad experiences with the licensed trade and am now reluctant to work for pubs and clubs, and if I do its got to be payment up front. Wrote off £4k bad debt in 2006, £1200 in 2007 all licenced trade. And thats a lot of work for nowt.
I think since the demise of the licensing justices there has been a huge increase in rogues and lowlife being given licences.
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Thanks Kurnal
well that puts my 60 days I've been waiting in the shade.. its the first time it's happened to me and it's a multi chain business
It was a hell of a drive getting there as well!!
£5.200 written off!...Ouch
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30 day terms from when the report is recieved, we pretty much always get paid around then but we have a good accounts team
only written off one £1200 job in two years due to company going into administration
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We are not risk assessors, but as alarm/extinguisher installers/maintainers we have a few bad pennies.
Try using Higgins solicitors, an online based debt recovery firm who send solicitors letters out for about 2 quid each.
If debt not then paid, they will pursue it (you have to stump up an upfront sum (about £65, which is then recovered from the debtor in the event of a successful outcome).
The letter before action usually does the trick.
www.thomashiggins.com
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What you may be working with Lingmoor is the common practice of many larger organisations to pay you within 30 days of their monthly accounting day usually the last day of the month. So get your invoice in on the 29th and it will be paid within 31 days. Get your account in on the 1st and you will wait 60 days. I find this fairly common with some of the bigger companies
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Prof K
Good job your rates are reasonable then, eh, or you would have lost a lot more!
Most Local Gov do pay, but generally takes 60 days as M'learned colleague states.
davo
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For the sort of money you are talking about I would be camped outside the directors house. Seriously though, did you find they were in breach of the RRO when you did the work? If they are I would warn them that you are duty bound to inform the fire authority and warn them that you will do this if you do not receive payment immediately. Alternatively, if they are a limited company give them 7 days notice in writing that you will seek a winding up notice on the business if they do not pay within the 7 days.
I am fortunate, I have only ever had one problem payer but he paid up the £1500 after I blocked off the entrance of his hotel drive with my car! He paid cash..
another solution is to factor your invoices. The only problem is you are giving away a large lump of profit in favour of cash flow.
good luck.
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The first rule of business is to never to give anybody credit facilities unless they have agreed to your terms and conditions of trading in writing and you have carried out a credit reference check.
If you are prepared to carry out work without doing the above, expect to be shafted on a regular basis. This world is full of rogues and crooks.
If your customer is not prepared to pay up front or to undergo credit reference checks and also agree to your terms and conditions of trading then don't work for them. You might as well sit at home and earn nothing, than to work hard and still earn nothing!
You can carry out a simple credit reference check yourself on a Company's financial stability by using information stored at Companies House for a very reasonable fee:
www.companieshouse.gov.uk
When your customer agress to your terms ask him for a written purchase order for your services on the terms, and if possible, the price agreed.
In the unlikely event you still don't get paid within the terms of your terms and conditions take legal action through the courts under the Late payment of Commercial Debts (interest) Act 1998. You can even do this on-line.
www.courtservice.gov.uk
When taking court action you are entitled to claim interest at 8% over base, a late payment compensation fee and repayment of court fees.
By the way, the late Payment of Commercial Debts (interest) Act 1998 also states that unless your terms and conditions ask for anything different then the recognised legal period for payment is 30 days from submission of invoice.
More information regarding how to get paid on time can be found at
www.payontime.co.uk
I have only ever not received payment when the debtor has gone into liquidation. This was mainly during the last recession. No customer of mine went into liquidation between 1998-2007. I have had one this year but I expect some more in the future - a new recession is on the way! Protect yourself now by having a robust 'debt recovery' system. The good times are over!
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No Ashley.
I'm not as brave as you. Some of these chaps are nasty pieces of work. You know when you work for them that their values and objectives are very differnet to yours and they couldn't give a hoot about public safety but you do your bit and hope that some good wears off. One of the big debts was on a place that we turned round after a prohibition notice had been served.
In some cases bankruptcy is the problem, and the licencd trade is really having a hard time at the moment. In other cases some of these people dont pay their taxes and when the Revenue or Customs and Excise catch up with them they have first claim. That was the case with the last one, he had a £90k surcharge on him for non payment of VAT, Yes I could get him wound up but I would have to pay the legal costs in full knowledge that at the bottom of the pecking order I won't get a penny. And that was his final insult to me and many others to whom he remains in debt. I would much rather have the knowledge that the debt collection agency keep spoiling his day by reminding him that I am still around.
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Thanks Wiz
Will check all that out. Must admit to having been very naive and green behind the ears and still am. Always see the best in people and can easily get caught up in misplaced enthusiasm. All part of lifes rich tapestry.
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Prof K
Good job your rates are reasonable then, eh, or you would have lost a lot more!
davo
Nice one Davo. Like your style! :) (I dont mean in terms of fashion)
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Thanks for all the replies...it is a 'nip and tuck' clinic....maybe I should ask for some cosmetic surgery in exchange ;)
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I never hand over a Fire Risk Assessment without payment! This is made perfectly clear from the start. This system has never failed me.
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I never hand over a Fire Risk Assessment without payment! This is made perfectly clear from the start. This system has never failed me.
Tjhats probably the best approach however if you did not offer some form of credit you may not be in great demand.
All businesses have a non payment problem of varying levels. It come with the territory.
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I never hand over a Fire Risk Assessment without payment! This is made perfectly clear from the start. This system has never failed me.
I take it you have never worked for a multi-national then?
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I am fortunate, I have only ever had one problem payer but he paid up the £1500 after I blocked off the entrance of his hotel drive with my car! He paid cash..
Thats genius, why not offer your services out to Lingmore?!!
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Prof K, unfortunately you can't think the best of all people. Most are o.k. and do you know what? They are the ones that understand why you have to be careful giving credit to them.
The ones that complain the loudest are actually the biggest risk!
Beltandbraces is basically spot-on in his point about never handing over anything without receiving payment first. However there can be a couple of problems with this.
Firstly, some customers might rightly consider it a risk paying before receiving the 'goods'. In these circumstances a good idea is to ask for 50% 'up front' In this way both sides take 50% of the risk of the other not meeting their obligations. Surely, no-one can argue that this is a fair compromise for both sides.
Secondly, as jasper pointed out large multi-nationals won't play this game because they consider that they are not a financial risk and get angry if you suggest such by asking for 50% up-front. In real terms they are not a risk of being able to pay. Quite simply, the chance of a plc going bust is very very small and it is worth taking the risk with them, but not with anyone else until they have a proven payment record.
In all circumstances it is important to make it crystal clear in advance what your customer will get for their money and when, along with confirmation of when payment for what they receive is due by. The customer must agree to all of this in writing before starting work. If they won't, then 'drop' them and find others who will.
It is all commonsense.
Always remember that in business you only work to make money to allow you to live the life you would like. If you don't protect yourself you'll be working for far less or even for nothing.
If you are good at what you do, you'll always find enough work.
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I am fortunate, I have only ever had one problem payer but he paid up the £1500 after I blocked off the entrance of his hotel drive with my car! He paid cash..
Thats genius, why not offer your services out to Lingmore?!!
Ashley Wood is playing a dangerous game. As Kurnal pointed out some people can be nasty. For example an installer I know had his jaw broken by a customer last week for 'pushing too hard' for payment. Of course, the Police are now involved but the installer is currently in hospital and unable to work and letting down other customers he promised to work for this week etc. etc.
Most customers, when finding you are blocking their drive, would quite simply get the Police to remove you. And there is no way the Police would be interested in your reasons for blocking the drive
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How do you work out your fees guys for carrying out a risk assessment, do you charge per day plus the writting of the report, or do you have a fee per sq meterage. your input would be appreciated Im leaving the FRS and thinking of starting on my own.
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I can't speak for anyone else but with me its the size and complexity of the building and the distance I have to travel. Basically the time I estimate it will take me from start to finish.
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As per lingmoor- The only way not to get your fingers burnt is to determine your hourly rate and calculate how long it will take you to walk the floor, write the report, check and present it. My experience is that it takes 2 hours to produce the report for every hour you walk the floor.
Estimating only comes with experience, theres no easy formula that I have come across anyway.
Your hourly rate will depend on many factors- your overheads, market forces, the arena you are working in, the level of service and your diligence and expertise, and the tier of management to which you pitch your sale- ie whether you are in at Director level or departmental manager level. That rather depends on your CV and experience
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How do you work out your fees guys for carrying out a risk assessment, do you charge per day plus the writting of the report, or do you have a fee per sq meterage. your input would be appreciated Im leaving the FRS and thinking of starting on my own.
I, like Kate Moss, will not get out of bed for anything less than my base fee. When I started I had an ever increasing base line which stopped when the clients looked a little anxious. Now and again I test the water and give it a little racket up to check the response.
There are rogues out there who would do a RA for buttons but their clients are happy. As far as they are concerned they have a good RA because they don't know how good ones, like mine, really are. No one will know how bad their's are until the judge or F&R Service read it and this is very unlikely.
I work on the premise that expensive work is no work.
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I agree with the above comments it all comes down to experience.
Factors include
No. of Floors
No. of Staff/residents
No.of members of the public admitted
Type of business activity
Approx Dimensions
No. of buildings
Single or multiple occupancy
Any outstanding notices from the fire service
Distance to travel
I have tried for years to work out a formulae but you can't some you win some you lose. You can assess a small property and find a nightmare of a job but you can do a big site which is simple
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I agree with the above comments it all comes down to experience.
Factors include
No. of Floors
No. of Staff/residents
No.of members of the public admitted
Type of business activity
Approx Dimensions
No. of buildings
Single or multiple occupancy
Any outstanding notices from the fire service
Distance to travel
I have tried for years to work out a formulae but you can't some you win some you lose. You can assess a small property and find a nightmare of a job but you can do a big site which is simple
to add to this I also look at the general state of fire safety i.e. if it is bad then it will take longer to write up
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I don't usually get the chance to make site visits so i have to gauge it on paper
But yes looking at the general state of things is a good idea
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Piglet
Are you sure about what you have wriiten above????????
If so, I suggest you hang your kit up and get another job.
davo
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Piglet
Are you sure about what you have wriiten above????????
If so, I suggest you hang your kit up and get another job.
davo
LOL
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Piglet
Are you sure about what you have wriiten above????????
If so, I suggest you hang your kit up and get another job.
davo
Yup i have to quote for all jobs nationwide for a team of consultants
so i have to quote with the details im told not what i see
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Sorry Piglet
Misread one of your lines, yes I know I need my eyes testing, Mrs Davo keeps telling me.
Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and make a spectacle of myself. (no rude comments please Prof)
davo
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Hi Jasper & Wiz
Perhaps I should explain more clearly my methods re Fire Risk Assessments, firstly agree a price, second conduct the survey and compile report. At the completion of report I return to site to explain in detail my findings and at this point receive payment. This is always made clear from the offset and has never caused any problems. With regard to multi national companies, if you include the NHS, then yes I do work for them. They are my only exception but they always pay 'within' 30 days max. This system has never failed even when dealing with the licensed trade!! Hope this resolves any misunderstandings.
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When I do my FRA I let them know there and then before I leave what my findings are and make sure they fully understand. There is no way I could travel another 500 miles round trip to give them the report. I phone them up after they've received it to make sure they are ok with it.
If it's local then I will take it to them.
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Lingmoor
Too much stuff floating around my brain to do that!
Will give them the important stuff if there is any though.
Jasper
Belated congrats on your elevation in status having reached 200 posts
davo
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B&B
NHS are not multi-national; if you ever work for any large blue chip company you will be lucky to get 30 days however one I have worked for recently has 200 sites therefore it works out over the long run if you know what I mean (staggered invoicing)!
Davo
thanks m8 :)
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sorted ;)