FireNet Community
THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: Jif on June 12, 2008, 08:06:19 AM
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I discovered this forum for the first time yesterday and you guys seem to know your stuff so may be able to help me.
The organisation I work at currently has its 165 extinguishers inspected annually, by a local firm, at a cost of over £4000.00. The extinguishers are rented from this firm and the inspections include refilling/recharging where necessary, guage tests where necessary and replacing o-rings where necessary.
Does this seem a fair cost for such a service or would we be better off buying extinguishers ourselves and just paying for the annual servicing? Is the annual inspections a legal requirement, a recomendation or is it down to risk assessment?
Also, is there a requirement to replace extingushers (and fire blankets) every ten years?
I have searched past threads and couldn't find the answers but guess these would be a fairly frequent questions so I appologise if it's come up before.
Thank you in advance.
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I discovered this forum for the first time yesterday and you guys seem to know your stuff so may be able to help me.
The organisation I work at currently has its 165 extinguishers inspected annually, by a local firm, at a cost of over £4000.00. The extinguishers are rented from this firm and the inspections include refilling/recharging where necessary, guage tests where necessary and replacing o-rings where necessary.
Does this seem a fair cost for such a service or would we be better off buying extinguishers ourselves and just paying for the annual servicing? Is the annual inspections a legal requirement, a recomendation or is it down to risk assessment?
Also, is there a requirement to replace extingushers (and fire blankets) every ten years?
I have searched past threads and couldn't find the answers but guess these would be a fairly frequent questions so I appologise if it's come up before.
Thank you in advance.
Is this a total care package that your organisation has with the local firm? If an extinguisher is found defective is it's replacement included in the £4K. Additionally, it seems an awful lot of extinguishers to me. Are they all on the same site?
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All the extinguishers are on the same site but spread over 17 seperate buildings ranging in size. In fact, since my original post, I have discovered an additional 20 extingushers I didn't mention!
The site is a school and includes notably - accomadation, two kitchens and a chemistry lab.
My understanding is that we would pay an additional fee for the replacement of an extinguisher although I am going to double check that today. The firm visits once a year for one day to service the extinguishers.
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The more you keep finding, the more cost effective it'll be :lol:
Sooooo, what we on then .........£4,000.00 by 185 ?
= £21.62 per unit, per annum. and you have to pay to replace the kit when it's defective.
But you get your call outs for free when needed.
And they can service 185 units in 1 day. Is that 1 engineer ?
I would like to think I am not a hypocrite. Therefore I will not say if I believe you are being fleeced because that is a personal opinion matter and any service business will try to make as much as it can on any contract. Also it takes two to tango, and someone holding the school purse strings will have weighed up the pros and cons and figured they were getting a good deal.
If you are looking for a way out. The first thing you need to do is check how long you are bound to this contract. Rental contracts are usually 10 year deals that firms will fight tooth and nail to keep you tied to.
If you were to buy your own kit you would be probably pay an average of £40.00 to £60.00 per unit and anywhere from £3.00 to £7.50 per unit, per year service fee + call outs / extra attendances @ around £25.00 per visit.
The above is only a guideline and not my pricing, just a rough industry norm (ish). You will have to shop around for the best potential deal.
I would also look at how many call outs you put out per annum and how many extinguisher refills and types of medium are involved at each call out. You may be getting VFM without realising it.
School + Kids = regularly discharged extinguishers ??
Also be aware that if you do get out of the rental agreement you will have "all" (dependant upon FRA by a competant type) the extinguishers to replace in one fell swoop (before the rental agreement finishes) as the rental units could be removed instantly upon termination of contract (and depending how annoyed the rental company is at losing their deal).
Have you got £10,000+ in your budget to bail out of the agreement ? etc. etc.
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Assuming you represent an independent school, It may be worth contacting your local authority and seeing if there is scope to 'buy in' to their corporate contract.
Many will be able to do this, assuming the contact has been properly tendered the annual service could be upto 50% of your existing rental cost including refils / extended services. Equipment prices should be in the £30 - £35 mark top wack (as part of the contract) there are however central government contracts in place that LEA schools would have access to which would supply reasonable equipment at a lower cost than that.
However, as the Reiver says, have you got the dosh to buy all of the new kit required in one go. I suppose there could be an option to buy out the rental agreement and hold onto the kit.
Paul
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At around £25 a unit a year you could buy a new extinguisher every two or three years. Proper rental agreements always include a new extinguisher when one is condemned as it isn't your extinguisher - why are you buying the rental companies new extinguisher for them?
Rental is useful for short term event cover or short lease shop units (open a few weeks for fireworks, or xmas cards), but not long term as it makes the fire company a fortune.
Rental maintenance normally falls into two types:
Rental only- extinguisher and servicing included, replacement equipment free (it's rented after all), but refills are extra
Inclusive rental- everything included, including refills (call outs and refills in between annual services are sometimes extra)
Own your own kit & have an 'all inclusive' fixed price service (avoids you getting stung by the higher cost every 5 years for the extended service and covers a refill too), it works out far cheaper if you use a competitively priced firm. If you get on the Chubb National Contract through YPO or the OGC Government Procurement system you can do this at minimal cost - I've used OGC to get very very cheap kit and filling.
If you go through OGC you can replace all the rental units for the same price as your annual rental fee (plus not all extinguisher companies take rental extinguishers back after the contract ends - Chubb rarely do as they will only put in new equipment, it's been paid for in year 1, and it isn't worth the cost to collect and environmentally dispose of the ex rental items)
Yes you need annual basic services, 5 yearly extended services (except CO2 & Nu Swift sealed powders) & 10 year overhauls (CO2 & Nu Swift).
No, the life of an extinguisher is not 10 years. It continues until it's condition deteriorates until it is unfit or unsafe for use and condemned (although it can be as cheap to replace a CO2 at 10 years as overhaul it)
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Does this seem a fair cost for such a service or would we be better off buying extinguishers ourselves and just paying for the annual servicing? Is the annual inspections a legal requirement, a recomendation or is it down to risk assessment?
In all honesty you should have got at least 3 quotes if not more even if they are just telephone quotes. You will almost definately save money by buying and having them maintained annually by a competent service technician.
Is the price you are paying all in or do you pay for recharges and replacements?
It is a legal requirement to have your fire extinguishers maintained at least annually.
I would suggest never buy from the internet or catalogues unless you have a competent person to commission and maintain your fire extinguishers.
A good reliable extinguisher company would if you gave them the figures charge more than an catalogue or internet company but they would /should do a far better job than just dumping boxes on your doorstep for you to try and work out what goes where, am I doing it properly, do I know what I am doing, was the extinguisher damaged in transit never to work again, delivered and placed on it's bracket empty, water extinguisher in the mainframe room scenario.
Always buy Kitemarked extinguishers. Some in my opinion are better than others. Trouble is that you won't know what is what.
If someone not competent or incompetent commissions or maintains your extinguishers any saving you made would be a big time loss if and when a fire extinguisher doesn't work when you need it.
Have you had a Fire Risk Assessment? Does it confirm that you need this many extinguishers?
Also, is there a requirement to replace extingushers (and fire blankets) every ten years?
No but if you are renting does it matter? An extinguisher should last at least 5 years but could easily reach 20 years.
You should get an estimate for 5 years to give you an idea.
AnthonyB's suggestion that you could get a new extinguisher every two or three years for £25 (these will be internet prices for a box to be dumped on your doorstep) is in my opinion not really an option for the reasons I have mentioned above.
Unless you or someone within your organisation becomes competent to commission extinguishers my advice would be to always, always, always employ a competent service technician.
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I wasn't meaning don't service them & buy new every couple of years!
Just saying how low new equipment can be these days - although from several suppliers you risk getting non kitemarked stuff without an initial service. The box dumped on your doorstep rings true and why the new 5306-3 proposes a new category of 'Initial Service'.
But as a school if you buy through the HM Governments' OGC Procurement system you can get kitemarked top quality Chubb kit (real Chubb not Gloria or TG trade ranges) for £20 to £30 and get the servicing and refilling done by Chubb for silly money too on their all inclusive plan.
Otherwise totally agree with nim, just clarifying my comments
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I've just got back from doing some surveys in Germany where they only service them every 2 years. It's got me thinking, if I did a fire safety risk assessment and concluded that servicing every 2 years was good enough for me, do you think anyone would had a problem? We often work to US standards here, so can't see why Germans ones are not good enough.
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Its only a matter of time , Mot's on motors are changing very soon in line with the rest of Europe , so I suppose the fire industry is going to be no different.
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I wasn't meaning don't service them & buy new every couple of years!
Just saying how low new equipment can be these days - although from several suppliers you risk getting non kitemarked stuff without an initial service. The box dumped on your doorstep rings true and why the new 5306-3 proposes a new category of 'Initial Service'.
But as a school if you buy through the HM Governments' OGC Procurement system you can get kitemarked top quality Chubb kit (real Chubb not Gloria or TG trade ranges) for £20 to £30 and get the servicing and refilling done by Chubb for silly money too on their all inclusive plan.
Otherwise totally agree with nim, just clarifying my comments
Isn't Chubb kit now made in China?
If they can sell for 20 to 30 quid, why do they charge their small customers £160 + for a water extinguisher?
I can smell rip off!
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Anthony is right regarding the YPO Procurement system. This would provide a school with the best option for cost for new kit and a very low inspection rate. Check out the service details prior to signing any new contract though.
Remember also that in 12 months following the initial install the service engineer, sorry Technician, will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.
Once the current rental agreement has run its course there could be a large outlay required to replace the ex rental kit.
IMPORTANT: Remember, the current rental company will be providing you with additional or replacement kit between now and original agreement end.
That will pose a problem, the new kit will also have a 10 year (Usual term) rental agreement attached to each new extinguisher. This then stops you from ending the contract at the original term end.
You must be vigilant, prior to each annual service. Inform the rental company you need to authorise any replacements prior to installation, don't be fobbed off with "It's part of the contract". Stick to your ground you are the customer. This then gives you the opportunity to shop around local firms to supply replacement exts. and not purchase/ rent from your rental firm.
Steer clear of the internet for fire equipment. You may get a great purchase price but sod all support. Do you know what type of ext. is required for a particular hazard and the wall mounting requirements for example? How the Co2 swivel horn is fitted? Get it wrong and people will be hurt.
Some "regular" fire firms have internet trade sites under "warehouse" titles - use them as a reference tool only.
With regard to an Annual Service Agreement ensure all call outs are quoted, i.e. labour/time, call out fee, recharge fee as well as the regular cost per unit for inspection,recharge and extended service per type of extinguisher. The only other price you need is the replacement per type/ size of extinguisher.
Good luck :)
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Chubb and it's trade subsidiary Thomas Glover produce their extinguishers in China having shut the Ferndale plant in Wales (which dates back over 80 years to the days of Pyrene) a few years ago. If you want an extinguisher from the Mighty UTC that isn't Chinese you need to buy Gloria - which is being used in place of the former UK made Chubb kit in their Scandinavian companies. Gloria kit is replacing the Spanish made extinguishers they sell through their spanish wing Parsi SA. They are introducing UK colour coding to Spain as well with the new Parsi range.
The big difference between their stuff and everyone else's is that they own the whole factory lock stock and barrel and can thus ensure the quality is the same whilst profiting (even more) from the labour savings. Most other companies who use Chinese kit buy it as one of many customers of an existing separate Chinese country.
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service engineer, sorry Technician,
Taking the pee? If it's good enough for British Standards it's good enough for me.
will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.
You could look at it another way. A "service engineer, sorry Technician" can advise the customer that a particular risk is not covered and should be covered. Nothing wrong with giving good advice.
PS. "service engineer, sorry Technician" only joshing.
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Anthony is right regarding the YPO Procurement system. This would provide a school with the best option for cost for new kit and a very low inspection rate. Check out the service details prior to signing any new contract though.
Remember also that in 12 months following the initial install the service engineer, sorry Technician, will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.
Once the current rental agreement has run its course there could be a large outlay required to replace the ex rental kit.
IMPORTANT: Remember, the current rental company will be providing you with additional or replacement kit between now and original agreement end.
That will pose a problem, the new kit will also have a 10 year (Usual term) rental agreement attached to each new extinguisher. This then stops you from ending the contract at the original term end.
You must be vigilant, prior to each annual service. Inform the rental company you need to authorise any replacements prior to installation, don't be fobbed off with "It's part of the contract". Stick to your ground you are the customer. This then gives you the opportunity to shop around local firms to supply replacement exts. and not purchase/ rent from your rental firm.
Steer clear of the internet for fire equipment. You may get a great purchase price but sod all support. Do you know what type of ext. is required for a particular hazard and the wall mounting requirements for example? How the Co2 swivel horn is fitted? Get it wrong and people will be hurt.
Some "regular" fire firms have internet trade sites under "warehouse" titles - use them as a reference tool only.
With regard to an Annual Service Agreement ensure all call outs are quoted, i.e. labour/time, call out fee, recharge fee as well as the regular cost per unit for inspection,recharge and extended service per type of extinguisher. The only other price you need is the replacement per type/ size of extinguisher.
Good luck :)
Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.
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Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.
Yup........Up here it pays for the derv, travelling time and wages.
I only wish I was a registered charity like some on here.
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Chubb and it's trade subsidiary Thomas Glover produce their extinguishers in China having shut the Ferndale plant in Wales (which dates back over 80 years to the days of Pyrene) a few years ago. If you want an extinguisher from the Mighty UTC that isn't Chinese you need to buy Gloria - which is being used in place of the former UK made Chubb kit in their Scandinavian companies. Gloria kit is replacing the Spanish made extinguishers they sell through their spanish wing Parsi SA. They are introducing UK colour coding to Spain as well with the new Parsi range.
The big difference between their stuff and everyone else's is that they own the whole factory lock stock and barrel and can thus ensure the quality is the same whilst profiting (even more) from the labour savings. Most other companies who use Chinese kit buy it as one of many customers of an existing separate Chinese country.
UK colour coding? Does that mean they are likely to adopt the rest of BS & EN3 too?! Great! Safe hotels in Espanol !?!?
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Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.
Yup........Up here it pays for the derv, travelling time and wages.
I only wish I was a registered charity like some on here.
Registered and Certified mate! Completely bloody Sectioned !!
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service engineer, sorry Technician,
Taking the pee? If it's good enough for British Standards it's good enough for me.
will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.
You could look at it another way. A "service engineer, sorry Technician" can advise the customer that a particular risk is not covered and should be covered. Nothing wrong with giving good advice.
PS. "service engineer, sorry Technician" only joshing.
No worries mate!
And I agree with you entirely regarding risk assessing. That is a sign of a good engineer, checking every room, looking for potential problems, incorrect fire cover for risk, ensuring safety/MOE signage is correct etc etc (you know the score).
My little quip was regarding the UTC/Tyco engineers of this world who would sell you their granny to meet a target but mainly as a warning re the original post to keep an eye on his stock levels and not be dragged into accepting inappropriate "advice" or "recommendations".
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I would also agree that an engineer saying you need more extinguishers isn't automatically just out for the sales aspect. They should survey and risk assess. It's just as bad when you find that the ext company guy is ignorant over the kit he uses and fails to advise a change in type or additional item as it is to find those that have done a 'sales assessment' and put a 2 kilo CO2 in every room, a 3 kilo Powder in the tea room and 52A's worth of waters in a 250 sq m building (guess who).
Some people servicing & selling extinguishers don't know fully about F risks and instead of recommending Wet Chemical will bung in an ABC Powder not realising that it's useless and the only reason Powder was used in the olden days was because it was normally BC Powder and did have some effect on the cooking oil (BC Powder & Wet Chem are alkaline and can saponify, ABC powder is acidic and can't)
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Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.
Whilst I understand where you are coming from, what you should really be doing is look at the bigger picture. Yes some companies do charge too much. Charging a pound for a tamper tag may seem extortionate but what was the total price for the job, is what you should really be asking. How long did the Service Technician spend maintaining the extinguishers, surveying the premises, installing new equipment and maybe even how long to get to and between jobs.
Today I have spent 3.5 hours driving, 6 hours servicing, 5 jobs and done 140 miles. The job is very physically demanding. Try lugging between 30 and 100 extinguishers all day every day. Do you want a bad back, dodgy hips and knees? I think we deserve to be paid well if we do a good job.
Maybe you should ask yourself, how much do you get paid for an hour of your labour, what does your employer charge the customer/client and what did you do for the money?
Whether you know or not we all charge different prices.
Some will go in at a silly attendance fee, silly unit cost fee and make the realistic cost of doing the job on consumables and parts.
Some will go in at a realistic attendance fee and not charge for consumables knowing that they will be used.
There will be all sorts of variations in between. None of these are right or wrong. Just what they are.
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hi Jiff
im new to this site as well, email me and we can chat
looking at the £4000 plus extras i feel you are being ripped off. i had this at a clients site ( another large non state school) and they took my advise and saved a shed load of money.
email me we can chat
thanks
richard
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British Standards set the requirment for how and what is done in a service, there is no legal requirment in the UK to have any fire fighting equipment, however your insurance company would in most cases reject any claim or refuse to insure you if you failed to have any equipment or if it was not correctly laid out under BS. Each engineer must be qualified i.e. have passed an exam which has trained them in BS etc. As for posting about the rental, like anything, are you getting VFM ? If you are then the price is worth it. In response to the 'where they are built' bit. There is only one company in the UK that still make/supply their own equipment and that is Nu-Swift. (based somewhere up north, Yorkshire I think). All other UK supplies come from China etc. and like anything you get what you pay for. I know from knowledge the difference, I also know somebody who has seen the difference. They had a fire at the factory where they worked. The new owner bought the China stuff because of price but they still had a few Nu-Swift units left. In a massive fire the only units that worked effectifly were the Nu-Swift ones and they were nearly ten years old (best of British etc.) and these allowed them to get out of the factory allive. As I said, you get what you pay for, the same as any product, how many times have were been told about the stuff we bought on the cheap and 'it only worked once and even then not properly', or 'I had to take it back becuse it did not work at all', most of which as always is built/made in China etc. With chldren do you want to take a chance that it will not work the one and only time you use it. Rolls Royce or Kia? Money or possable faulty equipment ... I know which one I would have (and guess what I have in my own house)?? Lastly I have done some digging, BS requires equipment to be serviced once a year, each unit has a life span depending on type (most will last between 5 and 10 years max) and in the UK the only bit of law is something called the Reglatory Reform (fire) act of 2005 and it clearly lays down one bit of law only, this is all companies must have a fire saftey risk assesment, this is the only law in the UK... hope this is all ok
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As with all things you are buying , no different to a shop , the price tag is an invitation for you to part with this amount for the goods , it is not set in stone . So the guy wants 59p for a mars bar , you can of course bid him on it. He will or wont , hence thats where your RRP recommended retail price comes in.
Some people want the comfort feeling of a big multinational , some don't , as long as you get apples for apples you pays your money.
However all business is about trust , so when you find a good firm , hang on to them , times are changing the contractor is now in a strong position , I have always been fair to the people I have worked for , and I expect them to be the same.
A good friend of mine quoted some work at the local golf club , and low and behold they moaned about his price ,(he wanted what he quoted) but when he queried his membership fee ,that was not negotiable , cake and eat it springs to mind.
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Firstly, an extinguishers lifespan is not only 5 years (unless you like ripping people off by selling new kit when only an extended service is due) and can easily exceed 10.
UK Fire still manufacture and sell their own equipment in the UK, I've been to the zinc founders in the West Midlands that makes the Britannia headcaps.
Firemark (FPS Bristol) are a UK manufacturer.
Amerex are US and just as high a quality as UK manufacture if not more so.
Gloria, Total & Bavaria are German and as high quality as UK.
Nu Swift stopped full UK manufacture in the mid-1980's when French Sicli models were widely introduced and now has Chinese models and components as well as a (decreasing) smattering of EU stuff. I agree their pre 1983 stuff was quality (& their E600x powders & E5000 BCF post this until they ceased production) and reliable even if not serviced as often as it should, but that was all in the past - they are no better now than any comparable product with the BSEN kitemark.
If the factory fire case is fact, then it's a Trading Standards matter for the extinguishers (if serviced) shouldn't have failed and legal action is required. The factory should also come under close scrutiny for possible enforcement action under the RRO as (as has been mentioned in other threads) the escape of the occupant's shouldn't have come down to whether one extinguisher discharge was more effective than another one- unless of course they stayed fighting the fire with extinguisher chains longer than they should (as was once promoted by Nu Swift with their Universal Fire Units E1308 & E1408 which were an extinguisher, bucket and 6 spare charges to allow "the extinguisher to be back in action in 30 seconds and allow fire fighting to continue as long as pressure charges and water are available").
£150- 250 for a standard extinguisher cannot be justified. However the bottom dropping out of the market due to poor quality far east imports is not acceptable either. High quality far east imports cannot be knocked - I haven't encountered any problems with Chubb stuff since manufacture moved from Wales to China (although it's early days) but then again they own the factory lock, stock & barrel so can control QA tightly.
Mandatory kite-marking for UK sale would be nice, but with our love affair with the EU could never happen, so we will be stuck with CE only imports for the foreseeable future
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In response to the 'where they are built' bit. There is only one company in the UK that still make/supply their own equipment and that is Nu-Swift. (based somewhere up north, Yorkshire I think). All other UK supplies come from China etc. and like anything you get what you pay for. I know from knowledge the difference, I also know somebody who has seen the difference. They had a fire at the factory where they worked. The new owner bought the China stuff because of price but they still had a few Nu-Swift units left. In a massive fire the only units that worked effectifly were the Nu-Swift ones and they were nearly ten years old (best of British etc.) and these allowed them to get out of the factory allive. As I said, you get what you pay for, the same as any product, how many times have were been told about the stuff we bought on the cheap and 'it only worked once and even then not properly', or 'I had to take it back becuse it did not work at all', most of which as always is built/made in China etc. With chldren do you want to take a chance that it will not work the one and only time you use it. Rolls Royce or Kia? Money or possable faulty equipment ... I know which one I would have (and guess what I have in my own house)??
I am pretty sure Nu-Swift stopped making most extinguishers in th UK over ten years ago and the majority of extinguishers were made in the Sicli (by name and Sicli by nature as Bill Thompson used to say) factory and imported from France from about fifteen to twenty years ago. Now I think Nu-Swift make their extinguishers in China as well. And as for quality. Used to be true as they over engineered everything. Went out the window when they introduced the 1377 and 1320 in about 1988ish.
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I haven't encountered any problems with Chubb stuff since manufacture moved from Wales to China (although it's early days) but then again they own the factory lock, stock & barrel so can control QA tightly.
I would suggest that there have been two problems at least with Chubb/Thomas Glover extinguishers manufactured in China. The first was the production of hoses five years ago that were subject to cracking/perishing. Thomas Glover have rectified this over time with replacement hoses.
The second (and this is most definately a quality control issue) is the overpressure of TG's stored pressure range. They have sent shedloads of extinguishers over here where the gauge needle is either in the green but so close to the red overpressure section that I am not comfortable supplying them so send them back to TG's for replacement or the gauge needle is in the red overpressure section. TG's have written to me almost accusing me of being paranoid because the gauge needle is in the "operable range and are perfectly acceptable". They also told me that I was the only person complaining. I can't believe that but I have seen enough overpressure extinguishers in the field to know that some companies/service technicians can't be bothered to send them back.
The overpressure as I see it is caused by someone inexperienced pressurising the extinguishers on the production line. They have obviously been pressurising water extinguishers one minute (where as most would know you can slightly overpressurise because the pressure has to dissolve/equalise through the whole cylinder contents).The next minute the twit is pressurizing 10,000 powder extinguishers and thinks that to save time they can slightly overpressurise powder extinguishers as well. The trouble is that the needle won't stabilise and the person doing quality control can't be bothered to empty them and start over again so just send them over here and let us deal with the problem.
TG/Chubb in my opinion have been very lax when it comes to quality control on this one issue
And before anyone tells me that I can turn a water or foam upside down and release the overpressure. Yes I know.