FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: CJ on June 18, 2008, 10:20:59 AM
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Hi just after your opinions
where i work we have a kitchen door that is held open on a device connected into the fire alarm. My feelings are that this hould be removed and the door should be kept shut. Because if someone burns the toast the smoke will be in the corridor before the alarm goes off and closes the kitchen door.
am i correct in my thinking?
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The smoke from burnt toast is not going to put anyones life at risk. Unless it is a dead end corridor there would generally be no requirement for a FR door anyway, and the hold open device is better than the chair or extinguisher that will be used to prop the door open. (Makes it easier to get back out when you have your hands full of tea and toast.)
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In my opinion you could have a kitchen door retained but the device would have to be Cat B/A (BS7273-4)
If you didn't retain it people may wedge it, if they didn't wedge it you have H&S problems with people carrying hot food/liquids
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How can you install a hold open device on a kitchen door? surely the heat detector would not activate in a suitable time frame and the corridoor would already be smoke logged before the smoke detector activated to relaese it?
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No because the detector in the corridor would probably pick it up before the heat detector and close the door with just a small amount of smoke in the corridor.
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Interesting.
I am currently being forced to change a heat detector to a smoke detector in the dining area of a kitchen diner becaue the FSO was unhappy that the corridoor would become smoke logged before the smoke detect in the corridor would close the door. I laughed at him.
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Very interesting
the kitchen is in a ward area at a hospital.
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No because the detector in the corridor would probably pick it up before the heat detector and close the door with just a small amount of smoke in the corridor.
For a hold open device to work properly there should be a smoke detector either side.
The smoke detector in the corridor would go off for a pastime from fumes etc from the kitchen...also with a hold open device the kitchen door would not close quick enough with a kitchen heat detector
It isn't feasible in my view
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I think that people can forget that heat detectors go off at about 58 degrees C. Before the corridor gets smoke logged I would suggest that the temperature at ceiling level in the room of origin was possibly over 58 degrees and as such the fire alarm would have activated. There are calcs that can be done to prove it one way or another if anyone can be bothered. Wiz may be able to give some more detailed discussion on this area.
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This argument will always be with us. Its a case of balancing the competing risks. If the kitchen opens into a staircase or a corridor, if a corridor what other rooms open into the corridor, and is there two way travel. In some cases I have gone for a hold open device operated by DS in the corridor and DH in the kitchen. Better still to keep the kitchen door shut and if moving hot food through then a double swing door becomes essential as Piglet suggests. A double swing door may not seal very well in the longer term- would it be better to have a single swing door held back on a magnet or dorguard - it will let smoke intoi the corridor till the DS operates or would it be better to have a possible leaky double swing door thats closed all the time. I may go for the hold back device cos it hits more H&S targets but only if the corridor is fairly low risk. Did find one old listed hotel where the kitchen opened into the stairs and the only route between kitchen and dining room was across the bottom of the stairs. Couldnt make door double swing and said they must not hold the door open. I bet they do though.
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Very interesting
the kitchen is in a ward area at a hospital.
I am not familiar with the HTM documents at all, but we are not talking about anyone frying stuff are we?
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Hi just after your opinions
where i work we have a kitchen door that is held open on a device connected into the fire alarm. My feelings are that this hould be removed and the door should be kept shut. Because if someone burns the toast the smoke will be in the corridor before the alarm goes off and closes the kitchen door.
am i correct in my thinking?
Does the kitchen door open onto a corridor or is there a dining room between both?
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Then HTM should apply and we should not have kitchens in wards. Whats the kitchen actually used for- is it a staff rest area or a preparation area - it cant be a full blown kitchen can it???
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No just a toaster and kettle.
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Approx 117 watts output per slice of toast. Frightening stuff.
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No just a toaster and kettle.
Then in my opinion it is not the type of kitchen environment which would be classed as an area of high fire risk. You can place a kettle and toaster in any office and it does not constitute creating a normal kitchen type environment.
To me a kitchen is very different to a tea room.
A toaster produces heat from elements. So does an electric blow heater and these are usually moved about an office. You cannot suggest that an office with a device which effectively operates in the same way as a toaster is an area high fire risk.
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Its not even classified as a kitchen then, just a tea area.
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Approx 117 watts output per slice of toast. Frightening stuff.
Yes not a huge risk but I have attended one care home fire where the whole kitchen was gutted following a fire in a toaster. Anyway back to the question- a hold back device sounds reasonable to me in the circumstances, though the staff rest area would be better sited away from the ward. Can you imagine being stuck in bed and feeling grotty and smelling all those slices of toast being burned?
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Yummy.
I have been somewhere where they smoke logged a whole kitchen with a baked potato. Some student thought it took 30 minutes in a microwave.
I appreciate that there are risks greater than just toast being burned, but good risk management would involve moving the roll of bounty away from the toaster, and not having the toaster under the notice board etc. :)
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I recall once a student who popped in one of those american style pop tart thingame wotsits in the toaster. Nothing unusual about that aside from the fact he left the wrapper on.
Half the kithen was devastated and the student ate cereal there after !
If i remember rightly dont the HTMs say kitchens / tea rooms should be 30 mins FR?
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Retty
You can't beat police officers here.
1. Jacket spud on 8 hrs (mistook the dials), when he saw the smoke, unplugged the MW and lobbed it out the (first floor) window
2. Officer fancies cheese on toast. Shucks, no grill. I know, butter the bread, put the cheese on, and turn the toaster on its side, should work a treat.....you can guess the rest.
davo
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Sounds like 'Home Economics' needs to be put back on the school curriculum
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Big T, if you are laughing at inspecting officers, it is no wonder they have got you changing your heat detector for a smoke detector. Maybe if you put some reasoning behind your decision and explained it to the FSO he may be more inclined to accept it.
All,
On the issue of the fire door, it may be that the door is purely there to maintain compartmentation (under licensing/insurance) and therefore as long as it operates to maintain the compartmentation it would be fine. It may not be a means of escape issue.
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We are answering the same question twice here- it's also in the Healthcare section - please combine the threads.
Firecode permits Ward kitchens to use swing free closers
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I read this thread with interest. It took ages before the two truly important questions were asked, but then we started to get some decent analysis.
I would generally, for an average building suggest that the overriding issue is "what do you mean by kitchen?"
However, we are talking in-patient accomodation in health care premises, so against my normal attitude I must agree that 'Fire-Code rules, OK'
I used to cause great argument years ago by pointing out to people who insisted that any room called a kitchen required 'high risk' classification. The old 'blue Guide' put it quite well. it suggested that a real kitchen required a 60 min door, BUT specifically excluded that use / door from being 'upgraded'. I would therefore ask "does that kettle justify the installation of a new 60 min door-set?" result, mumbling.
In this case, however, it is not the nature of the use of the room that is the issue, it is the location and the nature of the risk to the occupants of the adjoining spaces. Those are therefore the factors that should be analysed in my opinion.