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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: A J on June 20, 2008, 11:50:10 AM
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Just thought i'd run this one by all of you-
A purpose built two storey block with 6 one bed s/c flats each with 30min protection fire door (front door) , afd throughout, e/l and even portable extinguishers in the entrance and landing areas. Single staircase (protected) leading to the only entrance/exit door which opens into the building. My concern is with the small twist lock which you must turn to open the door. There is an e/l in the entrance hall but in a panic situation would people be able to locate and operate the lock quickly.The residents of this block could be there for a week or a few years so they will not always be familiar with the building.Although the can be opened without a key and it will be a small number of people is there a better way for quicker egress?
Or am Ibeing paranoid!
Your thoughts please
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When you say "twist lock" are you referring to the small butterfly or thumb turn type devices ? If you are then they are perfectly acceptable and I wouldn't be overly concerned.
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Just thought i'd run this one by all of you-
A purpose built two storey block with 6 one bed s/c flats each with 30min protection fire door (front door) , afd throughout, e/l and even portable extinguishers in the entrance and landing areas. Single staircase (protected) leading to the only entrance/exit door which opens into the building. My concern is with the small twist lock which you must turn to open the door. There is an e/l in the entrance hall but in a panic situation would people be able to locate and operate the lock quickly.The residents of this block could be there for a week or a few years so they will not always be familiar with the building.Although the can be opened without a key and it will be a small number of people is there a better way for quicker egress?
Or am Ibeing paranoid!
Your thoughts please
I think you are being a little paranoid. People are usually familiar with doors and would normally expect those leaving a building particularily a dwelling to have some sort of opener which requires turning. It is usually when you delve from the norm that causes a problem. The problem with a small twist lock is that elderly or disabled persons may have difficulty with it.
Are you in a position to have the type of lock changed at your discretion?
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The twist locks (not sure of thier correct name) are the butterfly thumb turn type midland, and sadly nearlythere, I can only report back to my client any discrepencies found during my FRA, If the lock is acceptable ,l could I then indicate the lock with a turn to open sign, would this be seen as addressing the issue?
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Emergency escape deadlocks are fine in several circumstances where an EN approved panic fastening is not required, it's all down to a risk assessment looking at a combination of numbers using the route and the types of person expected to use the fastening.
It should be OK in this usage and a sign is useful, especially as the thumb-turn doesn't always turn in the direction you'd expect to open the door - I've had doors where it is on the left side of the leaf but turns anti clockwise to open and vice versa.
Care needs to be exercised with some locks - I've seen these used on the high security locks that require two full rotations to unlock and this could be a problem in some occupancies as people will turn the lock around once, find the door still locked and start to panic
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Thanks Anthony, you have raised some intresting points, taking everything into consideration the twist lock in this case will be suitable & sufficient. Time for another anti paranoia tablet!
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As an addition to the post above, many aged people and others have problems with their hands and fingers and are not able to turn the lock. It should always be ascertained who is going to use the doors.
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Butterfly or thumb latches are common names. Jokar is spot on with 'who are the users'. You may need to have a general R/A and do additional for 'special cases' as necessary. Sufficient signage to comply with h&s signs & signals regs is also needed. Appropriate left/right handed arced arrows are easily available from most decent sign supppliers.
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When considering the elderly, before you get into the realms of madness by changing them due to potential dexterity issue, consider how they open their own flat from the inside. It is likely that they have a yale lock of some description. It is likely the thumb turns you have found during your assessment will be easier to operate than their own front door.
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I have to ask. Did these flats have skeletons of elderly persons in them from being trapped because they could not open their doors? How have they been getting in and out to go to the shops?
Elderly people are very likely to have trouble with a new device replacing one they have had for years and have been coping very well with all this time.
Is this a change for change sake or has a problem been identified?
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Have to say that i thought it must be a slow news day or something to be discussing the merits of a thumb turn.
You could have absolutely any one residing in the flats from a week to years.... perhaps there should be a building induction when they sign the lease, signs in every language on every empty piece of wall space and a St Bernard on permanent standby.......
Don't mean to be flippant but if an average person can't work out how to open a door then perhaps they should be in a care home....
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Have to say that i thought it must be a slow news day or something to be discussing the merits of a thumb turn.
You could have absolutely any one residing in the flats from a week to years.... perhaps there should be a building induction when they sign the lease, signs in every language on every empty piece of wall space and a St Bernard on permanent standby.......
Don't mean to be flippant but if an average person can't work out how to open a door then perhaps they should be in a care home....
David, I'll now have to report you to the RSPCA for encouraging the mistreatment of a St Bernard by not confirming that your proposals included adequate sustenance for the animal :)
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Wiz
The difference between A St Bernard and THE St. Bernard is obviously technical. A St Bernard is an animal? Not the real St. Bernard then? A sort of psuedo safety feature?
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Have to say that i thought it must be a slow news day or something to be discussing the merits of a thumb turn.
You could have absolutely any one residing in the flats from a week to years.... perhaps there should be a building induction when they sign the lease, signs in every language on every empty piece of wall space and a St Bernard on permanent standby.......
Don't mean to be flippant but if an average person can't work out how to open a door then perhaps they should be in a care home....
Have to agree with DR. Are we getting to that stage where we think we need place instructions at the top of a stairway informing people escaping a fire that the way to decend the stair is to put one foot in front of the other lots of times until you stop going downwards.
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Wiz
The difference between A St Bernard and THE St. Bernard is obviously technical. A St Bernard is an animal? Not the real St. Bernard then? A sort of psuedo safety feature?
afterburner,
The St Bernard is dead and can't therefore provide the required level of safety in this instance. (although it may be perfect for use in other non-critical situations). A St Bernard would be perfect for the job what with it's integral audible alarm and brandy dispenser. However I maintain that it must be serviced on a regular basis by a competent person.
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David, I'll now have to report you to the RSPCA for encouraging the mistreatment of a St Bernard by not confirming that your proposals included adequate sustenance for the animal :)
Sorry Wiz ... and the St Bernard.... or is it A St Bernard......??
Should have clarified.... The Dog would obviously require full training, food and water provided by competent persons appointed by the responsible person having consulted all relevent and interested parties. It would also no doubt need counselling from a highly trained bunch of "specialists" should it ever be called in to action to carry out the job it's been trained to do.
There would have to be adequate signage above the heated kennel warning people to keep clear, and not feed the dog in case it has a nut allergy.... and all residents would need to have rabies jabs "just in case".
But rest assured, if someone needs rescuing, as soon as the dog has been prepped, method statements provided, risk assessments submitted, queried, returned, rewritten, approved, signed off and all PPA has been adorned, and provided it doesn't conflict with one of those way out extremist religious holidays .... like Chrismas...... the dog will be there first thing in the morning.
oh yes........ please leave the thumb lock in the open position.........:D
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Eco friendly too. Keep you warm in winter!
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David, I'll now have to report you to the RSPCA for encouraging the mistreatment of a St Bernard by not confirming that your proposals included adequate sustenance for the animal :)
Sorry Wiz ... and the St Bernard.... or is it A St Bernard......??
Should have clarified.... The Dog would obviously require full training, food and water provided by competent persons appointed by the responsible person having consulted all relevent and interested parties. It would also no doubt need counselling from a highly trained bunch of "specialists" should it ever be called in to action to carry out the job it's been trained to do.
There would have to be adequate signage above the heated kennel warning people to keep clear, and not feed the dog in case it has a nut allergy.... and all residents would need to have rabies jabs "just in case".
But rest assured, if someone needs rescuing, as soon as the dog has been prepped, method statements provided, risk assessments submitted, queried, returned, rewritten, approved, signed off and all PPA has been adorned, and provided it doesn't conflict with one of those way out extremist religious holidays .... like Chrismas...... the dog will be there first thing in the morning.
oh yes........ please leave the thumb lock in the open position.........:D
David,
I trust that when you consider the applications for the position of door control safety/security supervisor (grade K9) that you remember the rules of 'inclusivity' and bear in mind that the organisation needs to more fairly reflect the community being served and I think your pre-conceived ideas of employing a St Bernard might be unfairly excluding other breeds. I have the vision of an ethnic lesbian mongrel bitch sitting in a wheelchair supervising the door with the thumb lock, as being most suitable for the job. (ps please ensure the fire alarm sounders are adjusted to a high pitch whistle sound to suit the new employee)
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David, I'll now have to report you to the RSPCA for encouraging the mistreatment of a St Bernard by not confirming that your proposals included adequate sustenance for the animal :)
Sorry Wiz ... and the St Bernard.... or is it A St Bernard......??
Should have clarified.... The Dog would obviously require full training, food and water provided by competent persons appointed by the responsible person having consulted all relevent and interested parties. It would also no doubt need counselling from a highly trained bunch of "specialists" should it ever be called in to action to carry out the job it's been trained to do.
There would have to be adequate signage above the heated kennel warning people to keep clear, and not feed the dog in case it has a nut allergy.... and all residents would need to have rabies jabs "just in case".
But rest assured, if someone needs rescuing, as soon as the dog has been prepped, method statements provided, risk assessments submitted, queried, returned, rewritten, approved, signed off and all PPA has been adorned, and provided it doesn't conflict with one of those way out extremist religious holidays .... like Chrismas...... the dog will be there first thing in the morning.
oh yes........ please leave the thumb lock in the open position.........:D
David,
I trust that when you consider the applications for the position of door control safety/security supervisor (grade K9) that you remember the rules of 'inclusivity' and bear in mind that the organisation needs to more fairly reflect the community being served and I think your pre-conceived ideas of employing a St Bernard might be unfairly excluding other breeds. I have the vision of an ethnic lesbian mongrel bitch sitting in a wheelchair supervising the door with the thumb lock, as being most suitable for the job. (ps please ensure the fire alarm sounders are adjusted to a high pitch whistle sound to suit the new employee)
Dear Administrator. This poster in sexist. What is wrong with a homosexual door supervisor? I'm afraid I cannot think of what the male gender of Bitch is but he's is discriminatory in that respect also.
Off with his head I say. Or is it a her?
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Wiz .... what bear? the bear in mind I mean?
You've discounted THE St. Bernard on the grounds that being dead terminates contribution and effectiveness. Does the Pope know about this re-classification of THE St. Bernard's usefulness?
Then A St. Bernard became the answer, complete with combustible container of highly flammable liquid arond it's neck. Then a bear creeps into the reckoning.
Lastly we're at the level of needing a homosexual supervisor, but does this apply to the bear also?
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Sorry Wiz ... and the St Bernard.... or is it A St Bernard......??
Should have clarified.... The Dog would obviously require full training, food and water provided by competent persons appointed by the responsible person having consulted all relevent and interested parties. It would also no doubt need counselling from a highly trained bunch of "specialists" should it ever be called in to action to carry out the job it's been trained to do.
There would have to be adequate signage above the heated kennel warning people to keep clear, and not feed the dog in case it has a nut allergy.... and all residents would need to have rabies jabs "just in case".
But rest assured, if someone needs rescuing, as soon as the dog has been prepped, method statements provided, risk assessments submitted, queried, returned, rewritten, approved, signed off and all PPA has been adorned, and provided it doesn't conflict with one of those way out extremist religious holidays .... like Chrismas...... the dog will be there first thing in the morning.
oh yes........ please leave the thumb lock in the open position.........:D
David,
I trust that when you consider the applications for the position of door control safety/security supervisor (grade K9) that you remember the rules of 'inclusivity' and bear in mind that the organisation needs to more fairly reflect the community being served and I think your pre-conceived ideas of employing a St Bernard might be unfairly excluding other breeds. I have the vision of an ethnic lesbian mongrel bitch sitting in a wheelchair supervising the door with the thumb lock, as being most suitable for the job. (ps please ensure the fire alarm sounders are adjusted to a high pitch whistle sound to suit the new employee)
Dear Administrator. This poster in sexist. What is wrong with a homosexual door supervisor? I'm afraid I cannot think of what the male gender of Bitch is but he's is discriminatory in that respect also.
Off with his head I say. Or is it a her?
Nearlythere, it was only a vision not a prerequisite. The manager of this home for the bewildered is already mistreating me, please don't give him/her any more reasons to punish me.
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Did you know that an anagram for Saint Bernard is A Bander Nits (A Band of Nits).
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Wiz .... what bear? the bear in mind I mean?
You've discounted THE St. Bernard on the grounds that being dead terminates contribution and effectiveness. Does the Pope know about this re-classification of THE St. Bernard's usefulness?
Then A St. Bernard became the answer, complete with combustible container of highly flammable liquid arond it's neck. Then a bear creeps into the reckoning.
Lastly we're at the level of needing a homosexual supervisor, but does this apply to the bear also?
Unfortunately a bear cannot be considered for a K9 grade due to an agreement on such made with the union in 1971. It was never in my mind. Along with much else.
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Did you know that an anagram for Saint Bernard is A Bander Nits (A Band of Nits).
Unfortunately nits do not have the required strength to turn the thumbwheel lock (even a band of them) otherwise they could, of course, be considered for the job.
This really is a slow week.
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the band of nits could live on the bear though!
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the band of nits could live on the bear though!
You could have a band of bare nits even.
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the band of nits could live on the bear though!
You could have a band of bare nits even.
Sorry, but I forgot to explain that employment (special situations) sub-committee covered this on item 3 of the agenda at their recent meeting, and after a three hour mass debate (n.b. childish comment on this term is expressly forbidden by the home manager so as not to excite matron) it was decided that the ideal candidate for the position would have to be hirsute (adjective: having lots of hair, especially on the face or body)
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Unfortunately a bear cannot be considered for a K9 grade due to an agreement on such made with the union in 1971. It was never in my mind. Along with much else.
Wasn't this repealed under the RRFSO ???
Anyway wasn't K9 the original dusty bin in Dr Who..... 3..2...1......
I'm afraid I cannot think of what the male gender of Bitch .
Errrrrrm....... Biatch...... Michael Barrymore......?
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Are the Bare Bear Nits Band going on tour? Releasing a album of all their hits? or do they limit themsleves to sound bites?
Could Chewbacca be considered the ideal candidate from the specification detailed by the Matron above? (hirsute, strong enough to turn the lock, sexually ambiguous, ethnically challenged.)
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......Could Chewbacca be considered the ideal candidate from the specification detailed by the Matron above? (hirsute, strong enough to turn the lock, sexually ambiguous, ethnically challenged.)
Chewbacca did apply for the position. His qualifications, as you rightly point out, are perfect. Unfortunately no-one could understand a word he said at the interview.
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What they said
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Tee hee. You're a dangerous man to know, Prof. :)
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Hi Dopps123. Bet you're sorry you asked. And you thought that the posters on this site were professional and responsible contributors. Mostly they are but by the third page the topic tends to degenerate to imbicilic drivel level. It usually pick up again to just above that come Monday.
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Indeed. Can we get back on topic please? Cheers.
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Sorry Sir. It was the others who started it.
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Ok.....
Yes I believe you are being paranoid.
Keep the thumb lock..... unless the RA highlights the possibility of thumbless residents.....:D
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No problem Wiz, although I'm not sure you really took on board my request to get back on topic. If everyone takes the trouble to blame it on an "older boy wot ran away" then we will have 2 more pages of the above. I didn't single out anyone for "blame", I'm just suggesting that we get back to the topic..........please.
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Ok.....
Yes I believe you are being paranoid.
Keep the thumb lock..... unless the RA highlights the possibility of thumbless residents.....:D
See. He's started it again.
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ah come on that was fun - no one was poking fun at each other nastily
Wiz really made me chuckle this afternoon with his replies and to be honest I needed a larf.
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well that makes a change.
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Gents,
Hopefully my last post on the subject:
I know you are having fun, belive it or not I have a sence of humour too. I didn't think anyone was being nasty, if I did I would have private messaged you (as both you and Wiz know). What I would like to emphasize is that not everyone reads FireNet as frequentyly as the small number of us who do and perhaps they don't want to read through pages of banter. Now, I post jokes on here too, I'm not against it, but when it starts running into pages of it, then I'll suggest we get back to the topic in hand.
If anyones wants to discuss my moderation decisions, why not send me a private message, as we are only adding to the "off topic" aspect of this thread.
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ah come on that was fun - no one was poking fun at each other nastily
Wiz really made me chuckle this afternoon with his replies and to be honest I needed a larf.
well that makes a change.
Gents,
Get a room. I've asked 3 times for us to get back on topic. If either of you find your membership of FireNet has been restricted, I shall refer you to this post as your warning.
Chris.
Forum Admin.