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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: pheonix on June 21, 2008, 12:40:11 PM
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Hi,
I have a large 3 storey victorian town house in north kent. I would like to rent out my semi sbasement flat as for short let stays for corporate/private guests on a self catering basis. The flat is not self contained, it is linked to the ground floor by a staircase which has a door to the fist floor landing at the top of the stairs - this door can be locked to separate our living space on the upper 2 floors. The flat will eventually consist of 1bedroom, sitting room, kitchen diner, bathroom and w.c. At basement level there is a front door at ground level and a back door with steep stone stairs leading to the garden. The flat is in the process of being gutted, re-wired, damp-proofed etc.
how much of the fire reg legislation will i need to comply to given that the accomodation will be contained to the basement and will only cater for a maximim of two guests at a time?.
Will the fire regs have to extend to the rest of the house if no guests are accomodated there?
In terms of emergency exits, because we have a domestic set up the external doors will always need to remain locked, is this a problem?
Who could I get information from locally? I'm wondering if it would be worth getting some on site advise before we plan our electrics etc.
Thanks, in advance for any advise you can offer.
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James,
Please don't post duplicate posts on 3 different sub forums. 1 is sufficient. Fire Safety is the correct one for this.
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Hi,
I have a large 3 storey victorian town house in north kent. I would like to rent out my semi sbasement flat as for short let stays for corporate/private guests on a self catering basis. The flat is not self contained, it is linked to the ground floor by a staircase which has a door to the fist floor landing at the top of the stairs - this door can be locked to separate our living space on the upper 2 floors. The flat will eventually consist of 1bedroom, sitting room, kitchen diner, bathroom and w.c. At basement level there is a front door at ground level and a back door with steep stone stairs leading to the garden. The flat is in the process of being gutted, re-wired, damp-proofed etc.
how much of the fire reg legislation will i need to comply to given that the accomodation will be contained to the basement and will only cater for a maximim of two guests at a time?.
Will the fire regs have to extend to the rest of the house if no guests are accomodated there?
In terms of emergency exits, because we have a domestic set up the external doors will always need to remain locked, is this a problem?
Who could I get information from locally? I'm wondering if it would be worth getting some on site advise before we plan our electrics etc.
Thanks, in advance for any advise you can offer.
Any Regulations and a Fire Risk Assessment will generally apply to the guest area as the remainder of the house is a private dwelling and in your case, as the basement has independant access, this will be in your favour. I take it the main entrance to the flat will not be via the staircase from the ground floor.
What do you mean about locked external doors? Do you mean locked as in secure from outside but openable from inside, or locked from both sides. In general a door which is required for escape purposes should be easily openable for that purpose? Easily openable does not mean without locks but locks provided should be easily operable without the use of a key, from the inside. Escape is normally from the inside to out.
You presumably are liaising with Building Control and they will keep you right at this stage.
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very sorry for duplicate posts, am a first time forum user and you have a rather large index which i shoud have checked out properly first, i hope i am on the right track now.
Thanks so much for the reply. you are correct in assuming that the flat had it's own separate entrance at ground level. The flat has a normal front door which can be opened without a key from the inside but the back door would have to be opened with a key in order to exit, is this a problem?
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very sorry for duplicate posts, am a first time forum user and you have a rather large index which i shoud have checked out properly first, i hope i am on the right track now.
Thanks so much for the reply. you are correct in assuming that the flat had it's own separate entrance at ground level. The flat has a normal front door which can be opened without a key from the inside but the back door would have to be opened with a key in order to exit, is this a problem?
It depends very much on the layout of the flat and whether the back door is required for escape purposes or not.
You have not mentioned Building Control since I introduced it into the issue. Have you submitted plans to them for their approval?
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not yet, we are are still at the talking abour it stage at the moment. Obviously we will need to comply to building regs once we get started on the work.
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not yet, we are are still at the talking abour it stage at the moment. Obviously we will need to comply to building regs once we get started on the work.
By going through BC you will not be able to go wrong.
Can't really say very much more at this time Pheonix other than when completed you (or someone on your behalf) will have to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment.
Go to the following link.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk4
Good luck
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I would not be so sure that the FSO applies. A self contained flat (potentially) occuppied as a private dwelling? Don't think so..
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I would not be so sure that the FSO applies. A self contained flat (potentially) occuppied as a private dwelling? Don't think so..
Eggcustard (great name by the way) yes the FSO does apply, it is for rent as "short let stays for corporate/private guests on a self catering basis" this means that it is not their primary residence (the address they have on their passport / driving license) therefore they are relevant persons the FSO applies.
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I would not be so sure that the FSO applies. A self contained flat (potentially) occuppied as a private dwelling? Don't think so..
Eggcustard (great name by the way) yes the FSO does apply, it is for rent as "short let stays for corporate/private guests on a self catering basis" this means that it is not their primary residence (the address they have on their passport / driving license) therefore they are relevant persons the FSO applies.
Hi Izan
Are you F&R? Interested to know why you use that criteria to determine a persons residential status?
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the flat is part of our primary residence, we have a 3 storey house this is the basement floor which is still connected to the rest of the house by a stariway with a door at the top, it does not have separate services i.e. water/ electrics. what i need to establish is weather it's worth going to the trouble of all the exra expence in order to rent it out, at the end of the day it's never going to be a huge source of income. this is why i am trying to get an idea of the extras we will need such as alarms, fire doors etc that i wouldn't need to have if i wasn't thinking of renting. I guess this is a universal dilema.
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Phoenix
First impressions are:
The rear door would probably need something other than a key for escape purposes.
There would have to be reasonable separation between you and the flat below. (60 minutes.) This is to protect you and your family from a fire in the flat.
An alarm system would be required in the flat. This is to protect the occupants of the flat.
If the bedrooms are inner rooms then the BCO may require window escapes.
If a fire in the flat could affect you above then you may need to be linked to the flats alarm system.
A fire risk assessment would need to be done, and a system of maintenance adhered to, possibly extinguishers supplied. (A fire blanket may suffice)
Look at it this way: You need to protect yourself and your familiy from a fire in the flat. (Because you become relevant persons under the RRO), You also need to look after the safety of the occupiers in the flat. (Protect them from themselves)
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yes i absolutely agree, may also use as a granny flat in furture for aged parents, thanks everyone for this very useful advise at least i know what we're potentially looking at. we do though have the advantage of starting from scratch with electrics/ alarms etc. which is why if we are thinking of renting we need to get things right from the start. many thanks once again.
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Nearlythere, I beg to differ...Set aside HMO issues relating to occupancy, if the flat is self contained, independent access egress etc and if it is occupied as a private dwelling then opinion is that the FSO does not apply. I would suggest to Phoenix to ask the opinion of his local F&RS prior to carrying out any work required by a FRA. Many city flats are rented out these days as short term lets, Would a FRA be required, don't think so. I would be interested to hear other views on this as the the FSO is not particularly explicit in this area. No case law as of yet. Sleeping Risks guide suggests it applies to these premises but more likely only to common areas.
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Sorry nearlythere, I meant to address Izan FSO's comments
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Nearlythere, I beg to differ...Set aside HMO issues relating to occupancy, if the flat is self contained, independent access egress etc and if it is occupied as a private dwelling then opinion is that the FSO does not apply. I would suggest to Phoenix to ask the opinion of his local F&RS prior to carrying out any work required by a FRA. Many city flats are rented out these days as short term lets, Would a FRA be required, don't think so. I would be interested to hear other views on this as the the FSO is not particularly explicit in this area. No case law as of yet. Sleeping Risks guide suggests it applies to these premises but more likely only to common areas.
I think EC that this is a different situation completely to rented accommodation. Rented accommodation is a dwelling environment whereas Pheonix is renting (probably wrong use of the word) out to guests on a short let stay with self catering. That to me is short term self catering for guests. I understand your arguement but you have to look at the purpose for what is being proposed. You could use your argument to define a hotel as containing a lot of short term dwellings but dwellings is not the business of the hotel.
Maybe if Pheonix rented it and had a lease drawn up then it could be argued that it is a dwelling. Maybe its all to do with the wording?
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hi eggcustard, the flat is not self contained - it's a bit of an odd one - it has it's own independant entrance but there is also a staircase to the first floor with a door at the top of the stairs between the staircase and ground floor hall, also it has shared services (or will have) such as electrics, heating etc. does this make any difference? I guess we're trying to keep all options open in terms of using the house so that it could be a granny flat with access to the house, future owners could use the entire house or we could possibly do the short term let thing. We don't want to separate the flat and make it self contained.
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It would not be someone place of main residence, and whereas the RRO doesn't strictly address this, the meaning would be taken from the housing act.
Self catering holiday places have been addressed by the powers that be and the RRO does apply.
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Hi Izan
Are you F&R? Interested to know why you use that criteria to determine a persons residential status?
Sorry for the delay in answering nearlythere, but ive' been hard at work today....and yes as an F&RS IO the criteria i use is a personal one to determine if a premises falls within the scope of the order.
if a premises is let as a self catering apartment then the FSO applies (but we all know this) if it is a primary residence then the it is a domestic premises and the FSO does not apply. i'm sure there may be some opinion on this but its all about the use to which the premises is put.
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“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); Just to clarify the FSOs definition for the sake of the arguement.
Civvy, why would we have to take the meaning from the housing act? Where is the authority for that statement? Phoenix, if there was not the communicating access between ground and basement and the flat used its own independent access, irrespective of duration of stay, it is still being used as a private dwelling (In spite of the contractural arrangements between tenant and lessee) and I maintain that the FSO does not apply... I am not trying to be awkward I just feel that there is a lack of clarity assosciated with the FSO.
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Izan, I don't think "personal criteria" to ascertain whether premises fall under the FSO would be defendable in court...lol
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Where is the definition that makes the RRO apply to a family living in a basement converted into a self catering apartment, yet not to a similar family living next door in the basement flat?
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This topic has well thrashed out in http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2739 with some very interesting and informative comments and opinions.
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Thanks Nearlythere, and that discussion supports my original advice to Phoenix, contact your local F&RS, seek their viewpoint on the subject. If they say it does apply, take them to court and do us all a favour...
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thanks all, had no idea that this was such a complex issue, i will definately take your advise and contact the F&RS, will let you know how we get on.