FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: colin todd on December 27, 2004, 05:57:16 PM
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This new Publicly Available Specification (PAS) has attracted some comment on the BB. Also, both we and BSI are receiving quite a lot of calls asking about it. So, hopefully, an update will not be too boring for the BB. As a result of admin problems within BSI in obtaining comment from relevant committees, the comments will not be able to be considered until early January. Thereafter, the time for production will depend to a large extent on how much comment there is and how much the draft needs to change in response to the comment. However, it now looks like it will be published in March. Unfortunately, it can no longer be called PAS 999. The reason is that a well known fire training establishment is alleged to have handed out copies of the draft on disk (no less!) as part of training courses on fire risk assessment. Aside from the flagrant breach of copyright that this would constitute (a matter that is receiving further action), it has not been made clear to recipients of these illicit copies (so we have been informed) that the document they have been given was merely an early draft that went on very limited private circulation (and not to the establishment in question). BSI are now extremely concerned by this and that, once the document is published, there will be confusion between the illicit early draft (which has changed significantly and is now a worthless document) and the actual published version. BSI's conclusion is that, as a result of this alleged unprofessional behaviour by persons unknown (for the moment unkown anyway!), they will need to change the number of the PAS. The new number will not be revealed by BSI until actual publication to prevent a repeat of the problem. If anyone needs further info they are welcome to contact ourselves or BSI. For obvious reasons, both BSI and ourselves are interested to hear from anyone who received the illicit version by the means described above.
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Thanks for the update - and the goss
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Always a pleasure to be of service to any friend of the Old Dozey Post Menopausal people.
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We are looking for ideas for a new number for this specification. Any bright ideas for something catchy? Contributions from a well known training establichment that have, so it has been alleged to us, been teaching the draft, c/w PowerPoint presentations, welcome.
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666?
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Or you could go Yank: 911
Or Euro: 112?
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The spec will be published by BSi around the end of the month.
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you spend far too much time in bsi committees!
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Its all a front for a capitalist plot to infiltrate the FBU with subversive level headed capitalists, Davey. Look out of your window right now! That man leaning against the lampost is not waiting for his dog to finish urinating. He is a member of the thought police keeping you under surveillance.
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how spooky! i said to him ' have you got a light, mac' and he replied 'no, but ive got a dark brown overcoat'
i thought there was something strange!
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Probably a chief officer. They teach them to produce verbiage that says nothing on the brigade command course.
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Hi Colin et al, they dont teach them that now any more, brigade command course is dead and gone, mainly caused by the IPDS lot who were made up of guys who could not get on the BCC!!! 'how are the mighty fallen?' and looked who felled them! Fancy the College releasing draft stuff early, I am shocked that such a bastion of the modern day fire service could do such a thing! next thing they will be tendering for contracts for all matters relating to fire at home and abroad just like a private company, and the next thing, heaven forfend, will be fire brigades setting up their own privates companies to do similar work, then who will enforce the enforcers?
As for a number for the PAS why not try a random number generator its less naff that all this 999 and 911 etc etc or 54321 (I picked that from an old Manfred Mann song) bears as much relevance as any others.
Happy times
Cheers
BOB
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what about 118999?
this would take you through to an emergency call centre in india somewhere where you would talk endlessly to someone who hasn't the faintest idea of what or where you're speaking about.......but hey...who cares they're only on 75p an hour..
or am i just being cynical
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Too late. it has now been published on 8 March as PAS 79 ' Fire risk assessment- guidance and a recommended methodology' £99 from all good booksellers. (Well actually only from BSI!)
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Bargain!
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Colin
Cant find it on BS-INLINE. Is there a problem ?
Brian
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£99! I expected at least £999 from the BSI.
Seriously, I wonder how many will decide to spend that sort of money for guidance on fire risk assessment - or even whether they will be aware of its existence.
So, what is being done to advertise it, Colin and is it worth getting?
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Brian, Because it is a PAS it will not be downloadable from any of the subscription sites at which you can download BSs. Als you need to buy it. If ODPM will not buy it for you let me know . We have some copies we got free.
Ken, Advertising is down to BSI, but obviously they are keen to sell it and are open to ideas, which I will happily pass on. As to whether it is any good, it is not for me to say. I wrote it, albeit that it then went out to a number of organizations for comment and a working group gave detailed consideration to the comments, agreeing changes with us/ BSI as appropriate.
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Colin
There are 89 PAS documents on the BS ONLINE system. But I guess BSI sees this as a good earner. I don't blame them for this, we all have to earn a crust, but its irritating when you pay big bucks for online access.
I suppose when you consider that unlike the standards that get written for free by committee members, and then get sold at £100+. PAS 79 is a real snip.
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Brian, I think that, in the case of PAS 79, BSi see it a bit like a text book, and you would not find the books they publish online. But if you have a prob getting a copy let me know.
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WoW! it must be a hefty text book, how many pages does it run to ?
On a serious note, I must concurr with the previous comment, my organisation pays several thousands of pounds a year in subscriptions for access to BS and other health and safety documentation so quite understandably we are feeling just a tad p****d off !
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I for one wont be buying it - £99 is way to much for a small business like mine to afford - and after all it has been written in the main by a consultant on fire safety who is only interested in making money for himself and not small businesses.
I for one will wait for the ODPM guidance on the RRO - I understand I will be able to download it - Free.
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78 pages. We pay several thousands too, but we do not expect to get things like books , but in any case its BSI's decision and not for me to defend. I doubt whether a small businessman really looks at Firenet, so I assume that wee smally is simply someone with an axe to grind. I am sure you are doing a fine job with your existing FRA in any case.
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Thanks, Colin. BSI need to advertise this type of publication through the HSE website, health and safety journals and professional bodies such as IOSH and IIRSM as well as the fire media.
All BSI publications are expensive but I feel that there should be public availability or, at least subsidy for this type.
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Its a good point, Ken, which I shall pass on to BSI. (no pun intended). You would need to talk to ODPM about subsidies, as its their legislation, which they failed to support with adequate guidance, that BSI are endeavouring to assist people with, by publishing a guidance document. Unfortunately, BSI are not adequately finded to take on projects like this as a charitable gesture.
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No adequate guidance? - I use "Fire safety an employers guide" which came out at the time of the Amending regs in 99 - published by the HOme Office. Not the ODPM who didnt exist when the last law came out so get your facts right.
If its so poor - as you say Colin- then why has it sold so many copies?
Would it be because you werent invited to write it or something?
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'Fire Safety: An Employers Guide' has been of use, 'Puzzled' but it doesn't tell us what a fire safety risk assessment looks like, the extent of what factors should be included or how far it should go. So we get risk assessments that vary from a subjective opinion, through a ticked check-list to (rarely?) a scientific evaluation of the fire performance of the elements of structure with details of all plant, machinery and equipment, emergency procedures and drawings showing the location of all fire protection and extinguishment systems and equipment. What one fire officer says is adequate another criticises or rejects, etc. A clear standard to which fire risk assessments can be tested should assist in describing what is needed and facilitating some measure of uniformity of approach.
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Ken "What one fire officer says is adequate another criticises or rejects, etc." - If the doccument is £99, and not available on line, it will be a long time before it is seen out and about on the FSO's desk.
Put that together with Brigades not funding Morton courses so no trickle down of info. from the centre - I foresee little impact for a long time.
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Ken "What one fire officer says is adequate another criticises or rejects, etc." - If the doccument is £99, and not available on line, it will be a long time before it is seen out and about on the FSO's desk.
Put that together with Brigades not funding Morton courses so no trickle down of info. from the centre - I foresee little impact for a long time.
Surely, however, if someone does their risk assessment to PAS 79, it's going to be a hard argument to say that it is deemed unacceptable...........
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Fire safety an employers guide is a fire safety document. It gives no useful guidance on the practicalities of fire risk assessment. If is is any good, why is that that many I/Os are honest enough to admit that they have no benchmark for a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment.
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Oops. PS I always find it odd why people with axes to grind log in as guests and change their name when they wish to make personally critical and childish comments. I mean, Mark old chap, are you a Small Businessman, are you Puzzled or are you just our old friend Mark1london??????
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I suspect that you are right, Peter. I wish it was £9 (or even free, sent to all fire and local authorities and made available on the internet). It took years before new legislation was made available free on the internet so I'm not expecting better for British Standards.
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Oops. PS I always find it odd why people with axes to grind log in as guests and change their name when they wish to make personally critical and childish comments. I mean, Mark old chap, are you a Small Businessman, are you Puzzled or are you just our old friend Mark1london??????
It is quite wrong for users of this board to post under more than one name. Anybody found with multiple identities will, in future, be banned.
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chris, does that mean anyone with a split personality aswell??
only joking mate, i know how hard you are trying to sort out a few minor problems!
dave bev
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Chris,
I say again...why?
If posts are offensive then by all means remove them but Colin can stand up for himself in normal rough and tumble.
Once you go down the route of deciding what is allowed and what isn't, you are taking away half the fun on this board.
anonymous posting is one of the joys of the internet and within certain decency standards should be encouraged. Many of the posters work for the public sector and could not speak so freely if identified. Big brother really is watching you!
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Chris,
I say again...why?
If posts are offensive then by all means remove them but Colin can stand up for himself in normal rough and tumble.
Once you go down the route of deciding what is allowed and what isn't, you are taking away half the fun on this board.
anonymous posting is one of the joys of the internet and within certain decency standards should be encouraged. Many of the posters work for the public sector and could not speak so freely if identified. Big brother really is watching you!
Allow me to explain some things:
- By all means disagree, argue and have opinions on things
- Remain anonymous if you wish
However:
- Don't assume multiple identities to try and trick the users of this forum that you are someone different from who you are.
Sorry if I am ruining peoples fun, because fun is 100% welcome. I try my best to stay out of interfering with posts as much as I can, but recently a number of postings have warranted action. You might not agree with my decision, but I am unhappy when people try and trick the other users and, as a moderator I occasionaly have to moderate.
If you want to discuss this further, please email me privately.
Best Regards,
Chris.
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The problem is, Griz, that a person could make supporting comments for himself under different names and claiming to come from different sectors. I mean Mark1london is awfully well informed for what he now claims to be (Small Businessman) on matters about fire safety legislation and the future of the RRO and all sorts of intricate matters pertaining to fire safety legisaltion, so how can he also be so ''Puzzled''. He can surely be just as rude and offensive using his real name.
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Colin,
To go back to the original point. I too, like other users are having problems in finding this document. There are almost 100 PAS listings, and when a search for the specific one is done the system gives no results??
Any help on purchasing this document would be useful, although I don't think it will change the way in which I conduct FRA's. I must admit I do feel there is sufficient guidance out there, although I guess it would take away some of the subjectivity recieved by some inspecting Fire Officers.
P
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Mr Smith, Are you searching the bsi website and can't find the listing?
If you go to www.bsi-global.com/Risk/Fire/pas79.xalter you should find it. Otherwise, if you send me your details under private cover, I can send you a brochure with ordering info. If you are doing fire risk assessments properly, you may be right and you might not change a thing. Equally, you could then probably claim complicance with PAS 79. Hope this helps.
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Thanks for this Colin,
The link works just fine.
Ta
P
PS. my previous thread for some reason listed my username as my email address. I am not running under a false id.
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Hi all,
Sorry if this is off the original topic but the guidance (or lack of it) for doing risk assessments has been mentioned above.
Where the Fire Brigades inspection officers usually have difficulties is how the significant findings are recorded rather than how the risk assessment was actually carried out. Clearly how it is done is crucial but the enforcers usually only see the findings, so this is what they comment on.
The code of practice for the management of health and safety at work regs does detail three main elements that should be recorded:
1 Details of existing safety measures.
2. Details of any action plan for more safety measures.
3. Evidence that a suitable risk assessment has taken place.
Please correct me if the above is not accurate as it is from memory.
Usually risk assessments include elements 2 and 3 but are very sketchy on 1. Why do you think this is?
Steve
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Your memory is working well, Steve.
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The reason item 1 is often "sketchy" is beacause people don't know what safety measures are there.
Drawing up a plan showing all the measure in place is very time consuming.
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PAS79:2005 has just been published on the Barbour Index subscription service, so subscribers can download FOC.
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Yes, it is time consuming and as we know "time is money". But is it necessary? - It must be hard to review the FRA if there is no record of what was considered adequate in the first place. Apart from that, a record will greatly assist staff training and routine maintenaince. The emergency plan, training and maintenaince proceedures can be written but exit routes and physical fire safety equipment are usually best shown on a plan. The dimentions don't have to be exact as long as it shows the relevant features.
Steve
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I bought a copy 2 weeks ago and I am very disappointed with it.
It is advertised as 'ground breaking'. The template FRA has been doing the rounds for quite a few years and the rest of it is quite basic. There is no example of a line drawing, which I think is an essential tool for carrying out a FRA.
The 'Fire Safety an employers guide', is a far superior document, its information is more in-depth, it is easier to use and would instil confidence in anyone using it for guidance when carrying out a FRA.
Without doubt, I have wasted £104 on this document.