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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Benzerari on July 16, 2008, 07:15:28 PM
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Guys;
I Had the same fault came up in different sites and the same sort of panel, 'loop warning, non addressable C pnt 1'. What is this mean?
Is it an internal fault in the main panel ?
Also, swapping the loop cards inside would that cause data lost (Eprom data)?
What about downpowering the system and back on, would that cause data to be lost too?
We still have to deal with Minerva system unfortunately, till we get decision to change them.
Thank you
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You can swap the loop cards around but you have to swap the eproms on each to keep the correct loop data.
Powering it down and back up again will not cause loss of data BUT be careful that the links aren't in place on the loop cards and the main board or it the configuration data will be erased.
The mesage doesn't sound quite right but I reckon that you have a problem on loop C (which is the 2nd card).The quiescent loop current has exceeded 4mA and can be caused by a faulty device (s) or a wiring fault causing loop leakage.Check your loop analogue value when this comes up (fast access 0062) and see what it's sitting at.
Bear in my mind that 2010 is approaching where support for these panels is being withdrawn - they are already considered obsolete.
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We had similar a problem many years ago with "non addressable point" faults, ADT told us it could be absolutley anything, from a base to a head... their solution was to take everything off the loop, put an ammeter on and then put everything back on the loop one buy one and look for a "higher than normal current draw"....!!
.....really useful!
Anyway on the subject of Minervas, we have a panel that is continuously resetting, every couple of minutes. If you set the alarms off it will also reset by itself.... one of hte loop cards appears to have packed up as two loops are not working at all......
any (clean ish) suggestions......???
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If it stays constant I'd recommend that you - check the loop value,split the loop and remove the out and in in turn to see which side the high current is on.
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You can swap the loop cards around but you have to swap the eproms on each to keep the correct loop data.
Powering it down and back up again will not cause loss of data BUT be careful that the links aren't in place on the loop cards and the main board or it the configuration data will be erased.
The mesage doesn't sound quite right but I reckon that you have a problem on loop C (which is the 2nd card).The quiescent loop current has exceeded 4mA and can be caused by a faulty device (s) or a wiring fault causing loop leakage.Check your loop analogue value when this comes up (fast access 0062) and see what it's sitting at.
Bear in my mind that 2010 is approaching where support for these panels is being withdrawn - they are already considered obsolete.
Very useful advice, I had noticed the EPROM’s on the loop cards, not like other makes have EPROM’s on the main PCB board, and that's the main suspicions...
I had checked that day, the analogue values only loop C had weird readings, some values 8.8 till 9 some others very low till 1 and 0 mA.
However, I tested all zones covered by loop C all worked OK; I mean one device in each zone, including the one shows 0mA value. This did not make sense to me.
Regarding the message: below 'non-addressable' it was displayed 'C' and below 'point' it was '1' I am not familiar with ADT stuff!
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We had similar a problem many years ago with "non addressable point" faults, ADT told us it could be absolutley anything, from a base to a head... their solution was to take everything off the loop, put an ammeter on and then put everything back on the loop one buy one and look for a "higher than normal current draw"....!!
But what is the normal current draw how much should be ?
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If it stays constant I'd recommend that you - check the loop value,split the loop and remove the out and in in turn to see which side the high current is on.
How much normally is high current ?
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Hi Banz - anything up to 4mA in quiescent mode is normal (although I was always happy at around 1.8 - 2.2).Anything between 4 and 8 gives you the Loop Warning.Next step is Loop Fault,which is between 8 & 12 and finally Loop Critical which is abnormal above 12mA.
You shouldn't be getting 0 from a device unless it is in fault but there is a different range of analogue values for each device type which are unique to that device type - a callpoint is between 1.4 & 3.0,a MR901 is 6.0 to 13.6,an RM520 is 2.0 to 4.4 etc.
Send me your mail address and I can pass on some more info.
Allen
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Hi Banz - anything up to 4mA in quiescent mode is normal (although I was always happy at around 1.8 - 2.2).Anything between 4 and 8 gives you the Loop Warning.Next step is Loop Fault,which is between 8 & 12 and finally Loop Critical which is abnormal above 12mA.
You shouldn't be getting 0 from a device unless it is in fault but there is a different range of analogue values for each device type which are unique to that device type - a callpoint is between 1.4 & 3.0,a MR901 is 6.0 to 13.6,an RM520 is 2.0 to 4.4 etc.
Send me your mail address and I can pass on some more info.
Allen
you can send them to:
benzerari1966@yahoo.com
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Allen;
Thank you for the info, this is really useful.
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Yet another problem with Minerva 80, one single sounder went off for about 2 hours till it's been removed, it a sounder base MB900 Type A...
Just would like to know what cause it to go off?
Why nothing came up on the panel, till it's been removed with the detector?
I just assumed the sounder base in this system is not addressable device, not like Apllo sounder base which have their own addresses?
Thank yoooooooooooo
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Yet another problem with Minerva 80, one single sounder went off for about 2 hours till it's been removed, it a sounder base MB900 Type A...
Just would like to know what cause it to go off?
Why nothing came up on the panel, till it's been removed with the detector?
I just assumed the sounder base in this system is not addressable device, not like Apllo sounder base which have their own addresses?
Thank yoooooooooooo
Faulty device,either caused by equipment failure or water ingress
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Yet another problem with Minerva 80, one single sounder went off for about 2 hours till it's been removed, it a sounder base MB900 Type A...
Just would like to know what cause it to go off?
Why nothing came up on the panel, till it's been removed with the detector?
I just assumed the sounder base in this system is not addressable device, not like Apllo sounder base which have their own addresses?
Thank yoooooooooooo
Faulty device,either caused by equipment failure or water ingress
Water ingress? it was no trace of wet at all mate, the fact that I fitted back the smoke detector into the base without sounder base... and the fault cleared out completely...
Faulty device? that's the last thing to suggest, we are going to change the sounder base by brand new one.
Thanks
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Yet another problem with Minerva 80, one single sounder went off for about 2 hours till it's been removed, it a sounder base MB900 Type A...
Just would like to know what cause it to go off?
Why nothing came up on the panel, till it's been removed with the detector?
I just assumed the sounder base in this system is not addressable device, not like Apllo sounder base which have their own addresses?
Thank yoooooooooooo
Faulty device,either caused by equipment failure or water ingress
Water ingress? it was no trace of wet at all mate, the fact that I fitted back the smoke detector into the base without sounder base... and the fault cleared out completely...
Faulty device? that's the last thing to suggest, we are going to change the sounder base by brand new one.
Thanks
I used to work for them and we had a run of them going faulty as you have described - be prepared to pay for the spares now!
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Faulty device,either caused by equipment failure or water ingress
Water ingress? it was no trace of wet at all mate, the fact that I fitted back the smoke detector into the base without sounder base... and the fault cleared out completely...
Faulty device? that's the last thing to suggest, we are going to change the sounder base by brand new one.
Thanks
I used to work for them and we had a run of them going faulty as you have described - be prepared to pay for the spares now!
It's been ordered mate
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Loop card faulty again, in a Minerva 80 panel, big part of the floor not covered till we get the loop card replaced... etc
The smoke and heat detectors flush periodically but they don't trigger for fire condition even you keep testing them the whole day, the MCP’s glass has been removed completely and not thing happened.
There is voltage in the loop circuit but the system not working properly in that loop... etc, this is not the first time we loose the proper communication in an analogue addressable system... etc
What are the alternatives?
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Loop card faulty again, in a Minerva 80 panel, big part of the floor not covered till we get the loop card replaced... etc
The smoke and heat detectors flush periodically but they don't trigger for fire condition even you keep testing them the whole day, the MCP’s glass has been removed completely and not thing happened.
There is voltage in the loop circuit but the system not working properly in that loop... etc, this is not the first time we loose the proper communication in an analogue addressable system... etc
What are the alternatives?
If the detectors flush periodically then you may have a problem with your cistern.
Is the panel not indicating any sort of fault - there may be intermittant faults appear and disappear on LB1x (the loop card at fault followed by either 00 (which means that the main processor has seen it or 20 (where the actual loop card has seen it).THis can lead to the panel apparantly sitting happy with nowt actually working on it.
Either way,best get them "persuaded" to look at ripping out and upgrading - 2010 and all that!
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Loop card faulty again, in a Minerva 80 panel, big part of the floor not covered till we get the loop card replaced... etc
The smoke and heat detectors flush periodically but they don't trigger for fire condition even you keep testing them the whole day, the MCP’s glass has been removed completely and not thing happened.
There is voltage in the loop circuit but the system not working properly in that loop... etc, this is not the first time we loose the proper communication in an analogue addressable system... etc
What are the alternatives?
If the detectors flush periodically then you may have a problem with your cistern.
Is the panel not indicating any sort of fault - there may be intermittant faults appear and disappear on LB1x (the loop card at fault followed by either 00 (which means that the main processor has seen it or 20 (where the actual loop card has seen it).THis can lead to the panel apparantly sitting happy with nowt actually working on it.
Either way,best get them "persuaded" to look at ripping out and upgrading - 2010 and all that!
Some times 'Comms fault' comes up on panel, some times ‘Loop O/C' comes up, some times it clears it self…
I haven’t got a clue what’s going on!
Upgrading is the best option, but still their decision... some times, I just think that Minerva 80 life cycle is about to run out, we had the same problem several times with Minerva system in different sites also with PSS and few times with Advanced in quite different manner...
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I feel your pain Benzerari, I maintain numerous Minerva panels, I constantly have the exact same problems but many of my customers are aware that the panels are considered "obsolete" but are completely unprepared to consider a replacement....
-
Loop card faulty again, in a Minerva 80 panel, big part of the floor not covered till we get the loop card replaced... etc
The smoke and heat detectors flush periodically but they don't trigger for fire condition even you keep testing them the whole day, the MCP’s glass has been removed completely and not thing happened.
There is voltage in the loop circuit but the system not working properly in that loop... etc, this is not the first time we loose the proper communication in an analogue addressable system... etc
What are the alternatives?
If the detectors flush periodically then you may have a problem with your cistern.
Is the panel not indicating any sort of fault - there may be intermittant faults appear and disappear on LB1x (the loop card at fault followed by either 00 (which means that the main processor has seen it or 20 (where the actual loop card has seen it).THis can lead to the panel apparantly sitting happy with nowt actually working on it.
Either way,best get them "persuaded" to look at ripping out and upgrading - 2010 and all that!
Some times 'Comms fault' comes up on panel, some times ‘Loop O/C' comes up, some times it clears it self…
I haven’t got a clue what’s going on!
Upgrading is the best option, but still their decision... some times, I just think that Minerva 80 life cycle is about to run out, we had the same problem several times with Minerva system in different sites also with PSS and few times with Advanced in quite different manner...
You are nearer to the truth than you might think Benz!The last Minerva 80's being installed as new systems would have been around 6 years ago,with many more out there under the THORN badge probably nearing 15 to 20. They are starting to fall over and at this stage basic economics starts to come in to play,where they are no longer financially viable.
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I feel your pain Benzerari, I maintain numerous Minerva panels, I constantly have the exact same problems but many of my customers are aware that the panels are considered "obsolete" but are completely unprepared to consider a replacement....
After 2010 they'll have no option (well,other than going back to the original installer to ease the pain a bit!)
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I feel your pain Benzerari, I maintain numerous Minerva panels, I constantly have the exact same problems but many of my customers are aware that the panels are considered "obsolete" but are completely unprepared to consider a replacement....
After 2010 they'll have no option (well,other than going back to the original installer to ease the pain a bit!)
I have seen in one of their sites a Honeywell analogue addressable system fitted out there, but not covering yet all area, I have seen that Honeywell system for the first time ever, the strange thing is that the new system is not yet linked to the existing Minerva 80 which still covering the bigest part of the site ???