FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Benzerari on July 31, 2008, 11:04:07 AM
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I just would like to know is there in other MAGIC way to find out a loop wiring fault in a Gent system, without using Gent software to display the loop map and so on…, most of wiring are hidden behind the wall and above closed ceiling…, and the worst thing is that Gent loop is not a perfect loop, it has sub loops and tees from sub loops...?
Nightmare really! :o
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These kind of nightmare problems let me think about a '7 segment display' incorporated in any sort of fire device which will display the right device address, loop number.. so what you see is what is really set.
This can make the things easy in case we cann't access the hidden wirring, so just run brand new bit of wire to close the loop.
What do you think?
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These kind of nightmare problems let me think about a '7 segment display' incorporated in any sort of fire device which will display the right device address, loop number.. so what you see is what is really set.
This can make the things easy in case we cann't access the hidden wirring, so just run brand new bit of wire to close the loop.
What do think?
Isn't that the same as sticking a label on the detector with the loop and address number..... until of course the loop changes as another head is installed and changes all the numbering..... soft addressing, great idea !!!
Happy hunting.........!!
:P
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Benzerari
What you need to do is remove end 2 of the loop from the panel and then allocate it. The loop will then stop at the fault either open circuit or short circuit.
You can the using the test engineer function 'find device'. This lets you flash the light on the head or it will sound a sounder or action an interface.
Find the device which the loop stops at, then you know its either the device that is found or the next one on the loop.
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These kind of nightmare problems let me think about a '7 segment display' incorporated in any sort of fire device which will display the right device address, loop number.. so what you see is what is really set.
This can make the things easy in case we cann't access the hidden wirring, so just run brand new bit of wire to close the loop.
What do you think?
Isn't that the same as sticking a label on the detector with the loop and address number..... until of course the loop changes as another head is installed and changes all the numbering..... soft addressing, great idea !!!
Happy hunting.........!!
:P
Dave;
We have just taken over about 9 new huge sites under the same management (customer) its a students accommodations, each site with minimum of 8 Gent systems all networked together in a complex manner, with more than a thousand of detectors throughout the site, none of them have got labeled detectors, and the night mare is that some buildings are open to each other, it is not that easy to know the limit of each system, and that's the REAL WORLD!
Good idea to propose to the customer to pay us just for labeling devices, but it will take us several weeks for each site, and not sure the customer will pay for that.
Fully comprehensive sort of contract :(
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You could also print out the loop maps and labels etc using the panel info functions from each panel.
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Benzerari
What you need to do is remove end 2 of the loop from the panel and then allocate it. The loop will then stop at the fault either open circuit or short circuit.
You can the using the test engineer function 'find device'. This lets you flash the light on the head or it will sound a sounder or action an interface.
Find the device which the loop stops at, then you know its either the device that is found or the next one on the loop.
Thanks skelffie for this info;
This is the same procedure when dealing with any open protocol system where the software is available, the Gent system case is a bit different, If I allocate the loop with one end disconnected would that delete the location text of the other side of the loop? If Yes that would not be my best choice then, for the simple reason that I haven't got Gent software with the previous back up, to re-instate every thing back to normal...
The other night mare is that when taken over this sites, we have done 100% test and lot of location text were found wrong, we assumed the system is been upgraded several times without updating the right location text, I mean we found the location text is a bit moved forward or backward of 3-4 addresses ... ( soft addressing sort of problems ).
None is perfect !
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Guys;
If you know some way to get Gent training and software without getting Gent member company and sort of protocols... Please let me know
Thank you
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These kind of nightmare problems let me think about a '7 segment display' incorporated in any sort of fire device which will display the right device address, loop number.. so what you see is what is really set.
This can make the things easy in case we cann't access the hidden wirring, so just run brand new bit of wire to close the loop.
What do you think?
Proposed this idea to Apollo Company 2 years ago, they said:
'This simple function would not make the fire device cost effective comparing to other makes...'
What's ashame :/
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Benzerari
What you need to do is remove end 2 of the loop from the panel and then allocate it. The loop will then stop at the fault either open circuit or short circuit.
You can the using the test engineer function 'find device'. This lets you flash the light on the head or it will sound a sounder or action an interface.
Find the device which the loop stops at, then you know its either the device that is found or the next one on the loop.
Thanks skelffie for this info;
This is the same procedure when dealing with any open protocol system where the software is available, the Gent system case is a bit different, If I allocate the loop with one end disconnected would that delete the location text of the other side of the loop? If Yes that would not be my best choice then, for the simple reason that I haven't got Gent software with the previous back up, to re-instate every thing back to normal...
The other night mare is that when taken over this sites, we have done 100% test and lot of location text were found wrong, we assumed the system is been upgraded several times without updating the right location text, I mean we found the text location is a bit moved forward or backward of 3-4 addresses ... ( soft addressing sort of problems ).
None is perfect !
Was about to suggest this but skelffie beat me to it. This is exactly what a Gent engineer would do. Usually there is a printed version of the loop map somewhere on site. All the Gent sites I maintain have one, normally in a battery box.
Don't know if that will help!!
Also, it sounds like the loop map was already wrong when you arrived. Who maintained the system before you??
To answer the location deletion question, the location text is always there. By allocating all you are changing is what device is "allocated" to each address. (God I hate Gent)
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Benzerari
What you need to do is remove end 2 of the loop from the panel and then allocate it. The loop will then stop at the fault either open circuit or short circuit.
You can the using the test engineer function 'find device'. This lets you flash the light on the head or it will sound a sounder or action an interface.
Find the device which the loop stops at, then you know its either the device that is found or the next one on the loop.
Thanks skelffie for this info;
This is the same procedure when dealing with any open protocol system where the software is available, the Gent system case is a bit different, If I allocate the loop with one end disconnected would that delete the location text of the other side of the loop? If Yes that would not be my best choice then, for the simple reason that I haven't got Gent software with the previous back up, to re-instate every thing back to normal...
The other night mare is that when taken over this sites, we have done 100% test and lot of location text were found wrong, we assumed the system is been upgraded several times without updating the right location text, I mean we found the text location is a bit moved forward or backward of 3-4 addresses ... ( soft addressing sort of problems ).
None is perfect !
Was about to suggest this but skelffie beat me to it. This is exactly what a Gent engineer would do. Usually there is a printed version of the loop map somewhere on site. All the Gent sites I maintain have one, normally in a battery box.
Don't know if that will help!!
That's the ideal world Jonny, nothing left ; Thanks for the info
Also, it sounds like the loop map was already wrong when you arrived. Who maintained the system before you??
To answer the location deletion question, the location text is always there. By allocating all you are changing is what device is "allocated" to each address. (God I hate Gent)
We haven't got an updated right backup.
It sounds like Re-commissioning the systems is the best choice! But this will not be an easy deal
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If the device texts are wrong then there's a fair chance someone has been reallocating the loops when there has been a device at fault or missing (allocate and run it's commonly known as).
With reference to labelling the devices you need to be checking the text descriptions when you are doing you're maintenance visits - can you not put stickers on the devices then?
Unless the write protect has been taken off and the revised configuration backed up the original data is still in there - it can be recovered via the software.
To be honest,if you think that this is going to be an ongoing situation with regards to your company maintaing GENT systems it may be worthwhile approaching someone who is currently or has been GENT experienced.
As suggested,find device is a good way to determine where a particular device is (LED's come on or sounders sounds) and from here you can start to get a feel for the layout of the system.
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if you are having major problems finding the areas where the loop is covering why don't you through the CONTROL menu and put the DIGITAL output 4 on all the devices on the loop. This will light the leds on all the smoke sensors on the loop. The only downfall with this is if an interface has the fourth channel used it will also action this output. If you do try this make sure you turn the digital output back off again
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if you are having major problems finding the areas where the loop is covering why don't you through the CONTROL menu and put the DIGITAL output 4 on all the devices on the loop. This will light the leds on all the smoke sensors on the loop. The only downfall with this is if an interface has the fourth channel used it will also action this output. If you do try this make sure you turn the digital output back off again
Learn something new every day!
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if you are having major problems finding the areas where the loop is covering why don't you through the CONTROL menu and put the DIGITAL output 4 on all the devices on the loop. This will light the leds on all the smoke sensors on the loop. The only downfall with this is if an interface has the fourth channel used it will also action this output. If you do try this make sure you turn the digital output back off again
Good idea we are having Gent training bit by bit.
Thank you
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To be honest,if you think that this is going to be an ongoing situation with regards to your company maintaing GENT systems it may be worthwhile approaching someone who is currently or has been GENT experienced.
We have got two old trained Gent engineers none of them still has got the software (or their password has expired...), one is in 'Honeymoon' (God bless him) and the other one most of the time off sick, the most recent news about intervewing new Gent engineer, he asked for 50K basic, this is the real world business...
Up and Down till we sort it out :)
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To be honest,if you think that this is going to be an ongoing situation with regards to your company maintaing GENT systems it may be worthwhile approaching someone who is currently or has been GENT experienced.
We have got two old trained Gent engineers none of them still has got the software (or their password has expired...), one is in 'Honeymoon' (God bless him) and the other one most of the time sick, the most recent news about intervewing new Gent engineer, he asked for 50K basic, this is the real world business...
Up and Down till we sort it out :)
50K basic - me thinks someone has delusions of how important they think they are!!!
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To be honest,if you think that this is going to be an ongoing situation with regards to your company maintaing GENT systems it may be worthwhile approaching someone who is currently or has been GENT experienced.
We have got two old trained Gent engineers none of them still has got the software (or their password has expired...), one is in 'Honeymoon' (God bless him) and the other one most of the time sick, the most recent news about intervewing new Gent engineer, he asked for 50K basic, this is the real world business...
Up and Down till we sort it out :)
50K basic - me thinks someone has delusions of how important they think they are!!!
Well trained Gent engineers are well wanted mate, they normally bring with them the software with an-updated password, a lot of large and important sites of first priority still have Gent systems: Airports, Hospitals, Universities... and that's the KEY ...
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We have got two old trained Gent engineers none of them still has got the software (or their password has expired...), one is in 'Honeymoon' (God bless him) and the other one most of the time sick, the most recent news about intervewing new Gent engineer, he asked for 50K basic, this is the real world business...
Up and Down till we sort it out :)
50K basic - me thinks someone has delusions of how important they think they are!!!
Well trained Gent engineers are well wanted mate, they normally bring with them the software with an-updated password, a lot of large and important sites of first priority still have Gent systems: Airports, Hospitals, Universities... and that's the KEY ...
...but 50K basic?????I could get 2 and a 1/2 GENT trained engineers over here for that!!
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50K basic - me thinks someone has delusions of how important they think they are!!!
Well trained Gent engineers are well wanted mate, they normally bring with them the software with an-updated password, a lot of large and important sites of first priority still have Gent systems: Airports, Hospitals, Universities... and that's the KEY ...
...but 50K basic?????I could get 2 and a 1/2 GENT trained engineers over here for that!!
:D
You have really made me laughing mate. Not 2.5 Engineers, just be honest mate, 1.5 would be OK
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Well trained Gent engineers are well wanted mate, they normally bring with them the software with an-updated password, a lot of large and important sites of first priority still have Gent systems: Airports, Hospitals, Universities... and that's the KEY ...
...but 50K basic?????I could get 2 and a 1/2 GENT trained engineers over here for that!!
:D
You have really made me laughing mate. Not 2.5 Engineers, just be honest mate, 1.5 would be OK
Not over here (I'm in Northern Ireland).You'll be lucky to get a basic salary (excluding on call etc.) much over 22K here as an engineer!
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...but 50K basic?????I could get 2 and a 1/2 GENT trained engineers over here for that!!
:D
You have really made me laughing mate. Not 2.5 Engineers, just be honest mate, 1.5 would be OK
Not over here (I'm in Northern Ireland).You'll be lucky to get a basic salary (excluding on call etc.) much over 22K here as an engineer!
That's why a young Irish just joined us recently, he was impressed of starting with 25K basic, but latter on he realized, the more you earn the more you spent. It comes to the same fashion, got your point mate.
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...but 50K basic?????I could get 2 and a 1/2 GENT trained engineers over here for that!!
:D
You have really made me laughing mate. Not 2.5 Engineers, just be honest mate, 1.5 would be OK
Not over here (I'm in Northern Ireland).You'll be lucky to get a basic salary (excluding on call etc.) much over 22K here as an engineer!
True. The company I work for are lower than that for a basic.
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:D
You have really made me laughing mate. Not 2.5 Engineers, just be honest mate, 1.5 would be OK
Not over here (I'm in Northern Ireland).You'll be lucky to get a basic salary (excluding on call etc.) much over 22K here as an engineer!
True. The company I work for are lower than that for a basic.
Down Heron Road per chance?
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Nope, I'll make it easy. I work for chubb. note the lack of capital letters in the name, just goes to show how i'm feeling at the minute about work.
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Nope, I'll make it easy. I work for chubb. note the lack of capital letters in the name, just goes to show how i'm feeling at the minute about work.
Brian Wilson still there??
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Yes...I've been here 5 years and still can't understand a word he says...
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Yes...I've been here 5 years and still can't understand a word he says...
Ahh,see you jimmy hoots and all that!He used to be one of our subby sparkies before he came over and settled here.
Ask him if he still has the pink camera.
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Hi All, As the Gent engineer who works for the same company as Benzerari I would like to clarify a few things to all and especially Benzerari.
1. The systems in question are not as bad as made out.
2. The panels (32000 systems) are about to be upgraded to Vigilon (SAFE addressing etc...)
3. The new panels and ALL devices should AND WILL be re-commissioned from scratch.
4. Gent systems are not as scary or as bad as some people think, just a change of thought process.......
5. Fault finding on Gent is easier than most systems (personal opinion only....)
6. Any assistance required drop me a line.........
Honeymoon was great by the way................
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Hi All, As the Gent engineer who works for the same company as Benzerari I would like to clarify a few things to all and especially Benzerari.
1. The systems in question are not as bad as made out.
2. The panels (32000 systems) are about to be upgraded to Vigilon (SAFE addressing etc...)
3. The new panels and ALL devices should AND WILL be re-commissioned from scratch.
4. Gent systems are not as scary or as bad as some people think, just a change of thought process.......
5. Fault finding on Gent is easier than most systems (personal opinion only....)
6. Any assistance required drop me a line.........
Honeymoon was great by the way................
Congratulation to you Paul and well come back all Gent sites are for you from now, see you tomorow at the head office for the promised Gent training by the way :)
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Hi All, As the Gent engineer who works for the same company as Benzerari I would like to clarify a few things to all and especially Benzerari.
1. The systems in question are not as bad as made out.
2. The panels (32000 systems) are about to be upgraded to Vigilon (SAFE addressing etc...)
3. The new panels and ALL devices should AND WILL be re-commissioned from scratch.
4. Gent systems are not as scary or as bad as some people think, just a change of thought process.......
5. Fault finding on Gent is easier than most systems (personal opinion only....)
6. Any assistance required drop me a line.........
Honeymoon was great by the way................
I'd agree with 1,4 & 5 (but I notice a lot more new Vigi's sitting with faults on them than I ever did on the 3400's).
Glad you enjoyed your honeymoon - it's all real from here on in!!!!