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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Big T on August 06, 2008, 12:14:01 PM
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Possibly a contraversial one.
I have just carried out risk assessments in 100 Sheltered schemes all of which operate a stay out policy.
I want to put together a suitable protocol for fire drills as up to know the scheme managers have not don drills as "its stay pout so whats the point of a drill"
The misconception with stay out is that people do not evacuate. Misconstrued by both the residents, managers and local fire services.
Fire alarms are not required in Normal Flats and the reason for alarms in sheltered housing (5588 pt 1 31.1) is to alert the warden or a control centre to call the fire service. The alarm is not supposed to wake residents apart from those in the flat of origin.
In real terms, fire alarms are to noisy and inevitably alert residents to a fire alarm during the day, and some (with better hearing etc) at night.
I want to build on this theory to allow me to utilise the existing fire alarm to give the resident in sheltered accomodation a bit of extra time to get up, get dressed and wait for instruction from the fire services or Warden.
My thoughts therefore are that a drill should test primarily that people in communal areas evacuate quickly and people who are within their flat should:
A. Ensure their front door is closed. (many residents leave there front door open during the day)
B. Get dressed into suitable clothing (It might be 3am and Cold)
C. And prepare to leave if asked to by the fire service or warden
D. When asked to leave go to the assembly point.
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My first impression would be that if I was Joe Public sat in a room and was alerted of a fire elsewhere in the building, I would not close my door and sit around in suitable clothes, I would get out. If I was confronted by smoke in the corridor I would imagine panic may set in and I would want to get out even more!
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I think you'd be surprised. Believe it not previously residents were given the option whether they wanted to evacuate or stay put.
Sheltered residents are extremely stubborn and will hapily stay in their flats with the alarm blaring. You can't tell me that without fire wardens offices would fully evacuate.
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Why would you want to evacuate other residents from their own homes? The substantial construction to operate a defend in place strategy, nominally 60 minutes, would allow the occupants of the risk area to leave and for a fire not to spread from the place of origin. Smoke travel could cause a problem once the risk area door is opened and placing other residents at risk by taking them through this area seems to be a concern. If the fire gets a good hold and starts to impact on other areas then by all means move those at risk.
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Thats my point. You are utilising the fire alarm system to ensure that all persons are preparred to leave the building if required due to spread etc. This would be a decision that the crew attending would make. In normal flats people are able to evacuate quickly when required but the old folk need about 20-30 minutes to get dressed. Do you think utilising the fire alalrm to give them that headstart is a good idea or unnecessary?
In addition if residents are dressed and ready and waiting, knowing it is part of the procedure it stops them becoming inquisitive when the alalrm isn't silenced etc.
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My experience of sheltered housing is that if people think something is going on they are likely to open their front door, lean on the jamb and talk to their neighbours about it. They will stand there until they get bored or until they perceive they are at risk - perhaps if visibility in the smoke reduces down to about 10 m or less, then some will panic, some will go into their flats and shut the door and some will try and get through the smoke to an exit and thus place themselves at risk.
I winessed this at a problem sheltered housing scheme on my patch- it was a bit of a worry because of a 45m unprotected dead end. So having witnessed this hapen at a serious fire involving a chip pan in which the unfortunate lady occupant tried to tip the burning pan down the sink, sustaining burns from which she later died, I gave all residents a fire safety talk and guess what... a few weeks later the alarm sounded and they all opened their doors, leaned on the jamb........
moral of the storey- you can try these initiiatives but you cannot police them and you are unlikely to change the actions of more than one or two. Sometimes you have to rely on active and passive measures rather than education.
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I might instal automatic deadlocks to all front doors when the alarm sounds. Apart from the in the flat of origin.
All doors could then be electronically unlocked (indivdually) on a panel by the service if required.
That would sort it.
This is Patented.
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Now there's an idea!
The Biddylock (c) Big T 2008
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make sure you take out all the door seals first to make sure the smoke passes round the building this will ensure that the brigade gets called out early enough to open the doors before everybody dies.......
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I might instal automatic deadlocks to all front doors when the alarm sounds. Apart from the in the flat of origin.
All doors could then be electronically unlocked (indivdually) on a panel by the service if required.
That would sort it.
This is Patented.
LOL
I like it
" Biddylock "©®™ coming to a store near you soon.
I fully agree with Kurnal and I too have witnessed the fact that when common alarms sound in sheltered schemes the residents all pile out to see what's going on. And why wouldn't they ? its human nature - sheltered schemes are mini communities where residents keep an eye out for one another.
The common alarms are utilised to tell other residents of a fire occuring, and to get their coats on get ready to be evacuated.
Fire seperation should be spot on when NEW sheltered schemes are first built. But i have severe doubts about some older schemes Ive seen - theyre like cullinders
With poor maintenance and the ineveitably of contractors coming along and knocking holes in walls, and all the rest of it, there is I suppose a slim chance that nasties may leave the room of origin if its a large blaze into escape routes or adjacent flats.
Do you then say lets do away with the common alarm and get fire crews to start knocking doors to arouse (is that the right word?) the affected residents if smoke / flame is strating to spread? risking the fact that the residents may be startles amd not ready / clothed sufficiently to escape and keep warm?.
Or do you keep the common alarm and have people be prepared to be evacuated and at the same time risk that some residents will be inquisitive and try to investigate the cause of the alarm.
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Sorry to take this slightly off topic, but does such evacuation plans cater for fire service industrial action?
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Been told today that some FRS are sending out letters to RP's of Care Homes stating that a Defend in Place evacuation strategy is not allowed. I have not seen a copy of a letter yet, has anyone else.
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Dont know of any care home where it is practicable anyway - most do not have one hour separation, and none have enough staff to support it as expressed in the guidance.
No we have to focus on the two staff evacuating all 40 dependent residents to a place of safety within 2.5 minutes of the alarm sounding, calling the fire brigade (up to 4 mins) meeting the fire service, etc.
Or just close down every care home that does not have a 1:1 staffing ratio.
Did a care home training session yesterday - couple of new issues raised for the first time I had several care staff saying there was no way that they were going to put themselves in danger in a fire situation for £5.70 per hour. That promoted a lively and very healthy debate. Most enjoyable.
Then I was having a go at the management because they had some very large totally disabled bedridden residents up on the first floor. Come on says I lets be sensible about this. Their answer was that these people may be at risk if there is a fire. The likelihood of which s very remote. But they have residents who are ambulant but tottery and if they put those residents up stairs they are at risk every part of every day of falling down stairs. Overall risk = likelihood x consequences. Whose at the greatest risk ? Any thoughts? (apart from finding a more suitable home for the most serious cases- they dont get a choice- placements from Social Services)
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I have come across the pay thing before and although people heed your thoughts come the day they will be out and away. "I am not risking my life for the minimum wage". How to get around it, I have no idea. Dedicated staff are not always motivated by finances so pehaps the managers should not be either and shore common goals of caring for the staff in their care.
As reagrds the placements, homes will take in who they are asked to without thought of how to care for them, again it is a financial thing.
The letter is supposedly about getting RP's to understand that FRS do not do evacuation and rescue under extreme circumstances.
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Are we talking sheltered or ressie care here?
In sheltered youre lucky if you have a warden on at night or weekends
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Getting off topic really. You are talking about Resi care.
Cleveland. If you read 5588 pt 1 section 31.1 (last paragraph) It clearly states that the fire alarm is not supposed to wake or notify residents of a fire. It is it to tell the warden to call the brigade or to call the brigade via auto dialler.This is why I wanted to adjust the evac policy and drill to include everyone getting ready to leave the building to reflect the way I perceive a safer strategy.
The fact that the fire alarms do wake everyone up seems to go against this guidance. Less we forget that in a normal block of flats no alarm is provided. I assumed in sheltered it was to give them a headstart in getting out as they take ages to get dressed etc. Seems its just to get the red water lorry on site a bit quicker...
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Sorry to take this slightly off topic, but does such evacuation plans cater for fire service industrial action?
I would think Chris that evacuation planning should factor in the non attendance of the F&R Service at any time.
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But Big T, the guidance for RR(FS)O for Sleeping Accommodation which I think includes sheltered housing states:
"The primary purpose of the automatic fire detection and warning system it to alert occupants/residents to enable them to move away from the fire to a place of total safety while the escape routes are still clear of smoke."
Or are they just refering to common areas?
Interesting that they use the term "total safety", which implies that a stay put policy only applies if you are in your flat, otherwise you should evacuate?
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Yes BS 5588 talks about someone taking ownership of calling the fire brigade (i.e; warden or call centre) but to suggest other residents shouldn't be alerted to a blaze occurring worries me.
Normally you will have a single point mains powered detector in each flat plus and a heat detector interlinked with the common fire alarm system.
Clearly if the heat detector does activate you can reasonably assume you have got a sizeable fire on your hands - also by this time the fire brigade should also have been called and well on their way (fire service should be called when the single point detector goes off as tehy are normally monitored too).
Then other residents should be alerted. They must be clothed and ready to go for full evacuation if required.
If you dont warn them and the fire spreads then fire crews will have to start knocking doors to rouse people who may still be in bed - and there will be a delay waiting for them to get clothed and ready to move. You can't have that situation.
So you still have to alerrt others - the heat detector ensures there is a time delay to investigate false alarms etc.
But I mjust stress again you can't guarantee the seperation in these places so a total stay put policy is not feasible. Partial stay put policies are the best - where residents are ready to evacuate if required rather than not react at all.
Also what about people in common areas , should they not be warned of a fire occuring?
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Then other residents should be alerted. They must be clothed and ready to go for full evacuation if required.
Aw Midland your'e a spoilsport. Ruining the best perk of the job.
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Then other residents should be alerted. They must be clothed and ready to go for full evacuation if required.
Aw Midland your'e a spoilsport. Ruining the best perk of the job.
Now I recognise that most residents in sheltered schemes will be of a similar age to yourself Prof and thus perhaps attractive to you...
But the sight of a 60 year old plus woman (or man for that matter) in the nip isn't my idea of fun...
I do feel matron should be informed about your perversions - fellow residents maybe at risk... tut tut!
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MR
Steady, the Prof ain't that old!
However, I agree Matron must be informed, a change in medication might be in order, especially after those nightmares!
davo
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Looks like its back to the methyl bromide in the extinguishers then. Big breaths. Just like Matron.
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Need to consider lots of factors and nmot just hypothesise about what is good for auntie betty or the poor care attendant.
That is why we have the RRO and not just casual guidance given in an impromtu manner and when the mood takes to visit a premises.
The ODPA guides emphasise the need for evacuation means to be available, understood and be preacticed - via regular drill - as measured by risk suitable & sufficient risk assessment (many are not worth the paper they are written on). Also the ODPA stresses that we cannot rely on fire service to evacuate premises - how long would it take to get a ladder up to fifty fiorst floor windows and opull the old biddies out for example if it were aserious fire. My evacuation procedure would hopefully save soem of them providing staff are trained and REACT promptly.
There are too many threads where we keep going back to cursory remarks rather than compliance and scientificly-proven risk assessment methods - just my opinion. Most of the advice may seem common sense at the time but one size does not fit all and we should refreain from trying to seek out a single fix whenever a topic is raised.
Personally I would be considering risk of gas leaks, fire spread, amount of combustibles and staffing levels BEFORE I decide to let the young lass keep her folk in bed. Numerous factors like this are easily overlooked which is why we have so many pages in these guides and we should try and take on board all scenarios - not just the first one we can think of.
o
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As I mentioned previously I can not think of one sheltered or very sheltered scheme on my patch where staff are on duty evenings or weekends.
Therefore evacuation plans need to address the fact that it is "John Wayne time" for residents at night / weekends and thus ensure that they know what to do in the event of fire - whatever that might be.
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So....
If the government decided in their infinite wisdom that no alarm is required in a block of residential flats and that in a block of sheltered flats a fire alarm system should be installed not to wake the block but to wake the person whos flat is on fire and to automatically call the brigade, What methodology is an assessor to use exactly that would steer them in the direction of completely disregarding 5588 pt 1 because they feel they know best?
The sleeping accomodation guide in my opinion does not properly address the issues found in housing and don't get me started on the LACoRS guide. The only real documentation that is properly aimed at housing issues is 5588 pt 1 and the reality is the majority of inspecting officers I have come accross are not familiar (in depth) with this standard.
The buildings are designed to withstand fire and it is highly unlikely that a flat fire would spread via a corridoor if the essential passive protection is in place. So it is highly unlikely that fire services would need to evacuate lots of people via their windows on the first floor.
Whilst I agree fire services should not be required to evacuate Hotels, offices factories etc. The reality is that based on the last 17 years of 5588 pt 1 buildings fire strategy has relied on fire services evacuating (Not rescuig) the residents.
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Prof, Dr W
Is that true about matron?
Can I join?
Does 54 qualify me?
(I certainly qualify as bewildered)
davo
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Prof, Dr W
Is that true about matron?
Can I join?
Does 54 qualify me?
(I certainly qualify as bewildered)
davo
Hi Davo
If you mean 54 inch round the waist then you had better keep out of Matrons way. Else you'll be on an exercise regime and it will be you taking big breaths
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Prof
I'm afraid Mrs Davo has beaten her to it.
Lost a stone ready for my hols in Greece next week
(no booze rather than exercise, there are limits you know)
davo