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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Davidrh on August 13, 2008, 01:42:33 PM
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I know what you are all goint to say but this is a serious question for me (I'm the one with the 40 bedroom hotel)
As some will know I am having a little local difficulty with my local brigade who want me to fit smoke seals to my Bedroom fire doors.
I have HD's in the bedrooms which the brigade have said is acceptable under BS whatever.
I have todate resisted the temptation to change to SD's simple because of the problems of false alarms.
All Hotelier will tell you about punters deliberately setting off alarms as it is
Having said all above I am starting to think that I would be better to ask the brigage if they will accept SD's in the bedrooms rather than smoke seals (No I am not going to do both)
BUT...and here is the kicker...What policy should I come up with to deal with alarms
The SD's will create more alarms (even though we are a NON Smoking hotel)
My existing policy is Alarm/Call Fire brigade etc etc (we are not automatically connected to the brigade)
False alarms are bad enough with HD's and will for sure increase with SD's
So many false alarms....its why people don't react any more (cry wolf to often)
and what do we do about the sirens. Turn them off or always wait for the brigade
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I am sure others have more experience of this than me, but perhaps 3 minutes delay between smoke detector activation and alarm activation and in that time you can send a runner to check the room? 2 detectors or a manual call point or a corridor detector activation result in immediate full evacuation.
I'd also recommend signs say that this is a sensitive smoke detector and that smoking, candles, joss sticks, shower steam will actiate it.
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The "2nd knock" 2 detector approach may not work in this instance as the second detector would generally be in the corridor anyway. We generally don't like long delays in sleeping risks so you may have some resistance from your FRS regarding an investigation period.
I stayed in a hotel years ago where the steam activated the detector which activated the alarm in my room. Reception phoned immediately to see what the problem was. I confirmed that there was no fire, that process took about 30 seconds from activation of the detector to confirming there was no fire.
Also, don't fall into the trap of saving a bit of money on cable by having the detector sited close to the door to the room, right next to the bathroom. The installers may also try to do this unless they are instructed not to.
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Replace your heat detectors for Multisensors
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The "2nd knock" 2 detector approach may not work in this instance as the second detector would generally be in the corridor anyway. We generally don't like long delays in sleeping risks so you may have some resistance from your FRS regarding an investigation period.
Slightly aside, but seriously, if the risk assessment is made by the RP and they believe even a 6 minute search period is warranted and acceptable (and in accordance with 5839) then under what duristiction can the FRS object, and apart from issue enforcement notices what can they actually do??
Re the question, if you have the management structure in place to be able to cope with a staff alarm of sorts then the sounder delay may be the better option. The search can be speeded up (if you have the staff) if the fire alarm is addressable, and possibly if you have a paging system that would relay the origin of the fire alarm condition to trained personnel to save them all coming back to the panel before rushing off again.
You need to plan your alarm and evacuation strategy around the resources you have available, not the other way round.
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The RR(FS)O requires numerous things. 1 of them is an assessment of risk, another is a suitable type of alarm system. So surly they would just take action based on the alarm system not being suitable?
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Yes Chris quite correct. We will challenge anything we feel cant or wont work. We are happy to be proved wrong and so if it can demonstrated it will work then end of argument.The proposal Wayne Rooney mentions seems reasonable to me and I doubt I'd take any issue with it.
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The SD's will create more alarms (even though we are a NON Smoking hotel)
False alarms are bad enough with HD's and will for sure increase with SD's
David can I ask you why you believe, or what evidence you have that SD's will create more alarms in your hotel bedrooms, and why is it that false alarms are so bad with your existing HD's?
maybe worth considering Graemes solution.
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Davidrh
Im guessing that your fire alarm is quite old (HD in bedrooms used to be used years ago when smoking in bedrooms was agiven for all rooms) if you are having such a problem with false alarms from HDs that suggests to me that your whole system may deteriorating and needs to be replaced and upgraded to a better system that will reduce false alarms. (article 10 Principles of Prevention - adapting to technical progress) continued waste of fire service resouces by not managing false alarms could result in enforcement under this article...possibly
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Most of these unwanted alarms from a smoke is where the bathroom extract is no good. People jump straight out the shower and low and behold steam goes straight off into the room and hits the detector, or deodorant / hairspray has also been known to cause problems. You might be better to evaluate thee layout of the room and the environment , and maybe make some changes. Pick one room and test it out if the above rings true , that's your benchmark.
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Ian
i think he is relectant to change from HD to SD as he has heard of sd's being more prone to false alarms in Hotels,not that his existing HD's are the problem.
a 40 room hotel is more likely to be addressable but either way not difficult to swap out the hd's
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Ian
i think he is relectant to change from HD to SD as he has heard of sd's being more prone to false alarms in Hotels,not that his existing HD's are the problem.
a 40 room hotel is more likely to be addressable but either way not difficult to swap out the hd's
You could be right Graeme (i assume Ian is me with the Z missing..i have those Jonny sausage fingers moments)
when I read "False alarms are bad enough with HD's and will for sure increase with SD's" i assumed he was having a problem with false alarms from h the HDs
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Saw a natty system up in Blackburn. The common areas were covered by an addressable system and each room by another system of stand-alone mains operated smoke detectors. If one the room detectors is activated it sounds within the room and contacts a hand held type phone carried by staff. The phone then gives out a voice message of which room it is. From this they can contact the room or, if no reply, pay a visit
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Since the smoking legislation several hotels I have either stayed in or visited now charge £40 for any evidence of smoking or false alarm from a similar cause, enforceable by the fact that most people have used their credit card and that by entering into a contract to pay for accommodation that they accept these charges.
New builds or refurbs in the big chains are increasingly using multisensors, but a few places are still going for heats in bedrooms - just visited one today which has just been refurbed & a lot of fire alarm works included where all the bedrooms are heats except for the two bedrooms which formed part of a staircase bypass route.
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Hi all
Thanks for the feed back
The HD's work fine accept for the occasional single room failure which sets off an alarm
add to this the deliberate (guests) alarms and it can amount to half a dozen or so a year.
Yes Izan. Spot on. Everyone in the hotel business is concerned about SD false alarms
and Galeon it might be Ok to test one of the rooms out...but you know what its like...nothing ontoward will happen in that room..period
My rooms are a decent size and in good condition with the HD's sited at the bottom of the beds away from the bathroom.
In my oinion everthing works fine
But..the FO wants smoke seals and basically I don't (I have heard all the aurguments back and forth to and fro and yes If I have to I will put them in
BUT I have been kept awake at night thinking about this.... If, for whatever reason, we have "cold" smoke in a bedroom with a guest sleeping. I already have 30 minute fire doors. I am now required to fit smoke seals which I think will kill my sleeping guest before the HD goes off.
No smoke seals and the smoke leaks out into the corridor and the SD's in the hallway set the alarm off.
I Know I know..you don't want smoke in hallways...but is that the holy grail ???
I just can't get it out of my head that smoke seals in otherwise servicable 30 minute fire bedroom doors are a fashion that will kill one day
What we want is a fire alarm that goes off when there is a fire.. yes..No !!??
So back to the HD/SD thing
I am getting so exasperated (wrong word..frustrated) by the experience of dealing with this !!!!!!!!!!
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I go with Graeme, change the HD to a multisensor, cover both risks and forget the strips and seals. The S&S in these situations, particularly on bedroom doors are for property protection and not life protection if, you have a decent fire alarm system.
AS a point, has anyone had a S&S retofitted door tested to the BS? It could fail you know.
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I was involved with work at the Fire Research Station in the late 1970s, I think for the then Home Office, which dealt with the effect of spacing SDs in corridors. I cannot find my papers on this, so I'm not too certain whether the Home Office published anything or if it went into BSI on behalf of the HO.
Well-fitting doors or those with smoke seals let little smoke into the corridor. What was let through was cool and tended to form a plug of smoke in the corridor which might not be near a detector and which could be thick enough to deter people from escaping through it once the alarm was raised.
Reasonably fitting doors (no smoke seals) would let some warm smoke through and this was usually detected well before the corridor was impassable.
Badly fitting doors (no smoke seals) let much smoke through. Corridor SDs responded quickly, but sometimes smoke built up too quickly in the corridor to allow adequate time for escape.
In the above circumstances I cannot see why the Fire Service is calling for smoke seals if the doors are reasonably well-fitted. If the doors are a poor fit - say larger than 3mm gap round most of the door - that may be the reason they are asking.
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If, for whatever reason, we have "cold" smoke in a bedroom with a guest sleeping. I already have 30 minute fire doors. I am now required to fit smoke seals which I think will kill my sleeping guest before the HD goes off.
Davidhr the smoke seals wont kill your guests the smoke will because the HD will only detect a devloped fire and the by the time the HD has operated the guest will be suffering severe smoke inhalation and possibly be already dead.
Go for SD in the bedrooms and get an early warning of a fire (if it is a well fitted and well maintained system false alarms should not be a problem) and everyone will be out of the building before the pressure from the fire in the room of origin has pushed smoke into the corridor.
After that you could agree an upgrade of the doors to fit seals as and when you redecorate a room over a period of time. dont dig your heels in look for a compromise.
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The HD's work fine accept for the occasional single room failure which sets off an alarm
!!!!!!
can't think why you would get a false alarm from a heat detector in a room,fixed temp or rate rise unless a customer has held a lighter up to it?
any signs of black marks on the detector?
failing that a faulty device but i have never had a faulty hd cause an alarm.
edit-bad spelling terable gramur
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Hi Izan
I think you have confirmed my fears
The Fire Brigade want me to fit smoke seals to bedrooms with HD's
I don't
Because (as I have written) and as you say too "Davidhr the smoke seals wont kill your guests the smoke will because the HD will only detect a devloped fire and the by the time the HD has operated the guest will be suffering severe smoke inhalation and possibly be already dead.
Do you see my point and my concern
The FB want me to do this.
I repeat the Fire brigade want me to do this !!!!!!!!!!
Fit smoke seals to doors which have HD's fitted (they are not asking me to change the HD's to SD's
This is my whole aurgument.
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I think the reason behind the FRS asking for smoke seals is because BS5839 quite specifically allows HD in rooms, and as such could pretty much sacrifice the person in that room. If this is the case then the FRS are possible wanting to make the best out of a bad job and ensure the safety of everyone else in the hotel via strips and seals to look after the escape route for the other relevant persons.
As someone else pointed out, if we asked for an upgarde to SD you could stand in court with a copy of the CLG guide and also BS5839, as the most current document, revised in 2002 and again in 2008, and ask the question as to why we want more than this accepted standard. The strips and seals would be more enforceable, as technically not having smoke seals does not comply with current standards.
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Unfortunately David the heat detector is for the purpose of detecting fire in the room prior to it escalating into the corridor (yes,at the expense of the resident in the room) and the smoke seals are to stop the nasty toxic stuff (which has already most likely killed your guest) escaping into the escape route for everyone else.Generally though,the detector will be fitted at the door itself as this is the boundry into the corridor.
It's a bit like the insistance of sprinklers in hotel rooms in the states - of no use to the occupant of the room.
A nice anecdote to the sprinkler situation is a conversation between a smoke detecor guy and a sprinkler guy,each arguing for their product.The detector guy throws down a challenge."Right,the two of us will go into a room,close the door and mount our respective devices on the ceiling.I will then start a fire down the back of,say,a soft chair or similar item.Neither of us will be permitted to leave the room until our own device has activated"!
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Hello Buzzard
I'm confused again.
Most, if not all en-suite bedrooms have bathroom doors next to the exit door.
SD's will be going off all night (or morning0 sited in the position you suggest.
I can see your point Civvy and think you are right in all you say
I am moving closer & closer to SD' s (in the middle of the room)
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Hello Buzzard
I'm confused again.
Most, if not all en-suite bedrooms have bathroom doors next to the exit door.
SD's will be going off all night (or morning0 sited in the position you suggest.
I can see your point Civvy and think you are right in all you say
I am moving closer & closer to SD' s (in the middle of the room)
When we install new alarms in hotels, one of the biggest causes of false alarms is steam from bathrooms that have inadequate extractor fans.
If possible, a deep "header" over the bathroom door to create a "reservoir" for the steam and a good extractor fan will minimise or eradicate false alarms from steam.
Further measures may include fitting ionisation smokes in place of opticals or fitting multisensors if you have an addressable system.
Most addressable systems have adjustable threshold smoke detectors so the sensitivity can be altered.
Query -
Never seen it done but why do hotels not install heat detectors in bedrooms but with a mains smoke alarm to alert the (sleeping) occupants? This is common practice in HMOs etc.
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Query -
Never seen it done but why do hotels not install heat detectors in bedrooms but with a mains smoke alarm to alert the (sleeping) occupants? This is common practice in HMOs etc.
Further Query in line with John Dragon's query -
Why don't hotels install a heat detector (that causes an immediate full evacuation alarm when operated) and a smoke detector (that causes a local alarm in that room and for the reception/security/maintenance staff only, with possibly a timed delay for full evacuation alarm) in each bedroom?
This provides the same level as John Dragon's proposal plus alerts the staff plus keeps all detectors on one system plus ensures any tampering with the smoke detector is indicated to hotel staff immediately. (as opposed to J.D's proposal)
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Hello Buzzard
I'm confused again.
Most, if not all en-suite bedrooms have bathroom doors next to the exit door.
SD's will be going off all night (or morning0 sited in the position you suggest.
I can see your point Civvy and think you are right in all you say
I am moving closer & closer to SD' s (in the middle of the room)
Hi David,I was referring to heat detectors in that case.
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All the above are good suggestions, and which is best depends where you are starting from.
If you have a hotel with an old conventional alarm system with heat detectors in rooms and are being heavily persuaded by the enforcers to upgrade to smokes in rooms, and like David ( and people like Colin Todd for that matter) you can see potential pitfalls in simply switching heads due to their being sited and cabled in accordance with being just a heat detector.
Analysis of the problem will lead you the simplest solution- ie protection of the occupant by provision of a nice cheap independent domestic smoke alarm. And why not? it hits all the buttons. It wakes the occupant of the room at the earliest opportunity, it does not disturb others with unwanted signals and can be selected and sited accordingly. The others using the building will still have adequate protection from the heat detector. It is a cost effective solution and it means that the old main system does not have to be scrapped prematurely.
If you are installing a new system then go for analogue addressible system with smoke detection in all rooms and a double knock or delay during which the alarm can be verified. Or multi sensors. But many of the older and still perfectly serviceable systems wont take them.
I do sometimes wonder why some of the contributors to this forum are so hostile about building owners wanting to balance safety and costs. It really isnt easy to fill a hotel with guests consistently and to make a good living. You need to look at occupancy levels and market forces- the big coach holiday groups hold the power and will only pay break even rates and many hoteliers have to make a choice between that and an empty hotel mid week. Yes you can look at the value of the property- but then try to sell it for that price!
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Hi again
Do you mean stand alone systems Kurnal.
ie lets say a 10 year battery type NOT connected to a central system
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Well You could argue for a 10 year battery operated model but i would feel more secure with a standalone, mains powered smoke alarm in each room with battery backup. I see no particular need to link to other detectors to meet the purpose..
There is nothing wrong with a battery only detector with regular tests- EXCEPT THAT in a workplace environment best practice would be to go with the H&S Safety Signs and Signals Regulations, the ACOP for which specifies that any safety signal that relies on a power supply should have a back up supply in case of failure of the primary supply. To power the mains operated detector you would need to pick up an unswitched live feed from a nearby lighting circuit in common use. Beware many hotels now have a card operated mains system linked to the access control and door entry that kills all power to a room- we need to be sure the supply is unswitched and available 24/7.
(I am keenly waiting for the manufacturers to come up with radio linked domestic type smoke alarms with dual battery operation and then we would have the ideal solution for the smaller B&B.......................... Piglet where are you and can you help??? )
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Ei do mains/battery radio smokes - http://www.eielectronics.com/p3.php?PHPSESSID=10063cd7a769ba89fb8c6ce02f6f6506 .
I'm assuming that Aico do the same thing http://www.aico.co.uk/smoke_radio.htm .
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Thanks Buzzard- but I think the market needs a wholly battery powered radio linked smoke alarm for the small B&B market. The device must have a primary and secondary battery source to meet the signs and signals acop - lets say a 5 year life primary battery supply with a 30 day backup battery. Or am I in cloud cuckoo land?
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Thanks Buzzard- but I think the market needs a wholly battery powered radio linked smoke alarm for the small B&B market. The device must have a primary and secondary battery source to meet the signs and signals acop - lets say a 5 year life primary battery supply with a 30 day backup battery. Or am I in cloud cuckoo land?
I don't think it would be exactly rocket science to achieve this.
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I believe the EMS 5839 part 1 radio system detectors have exactly this arrangement
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I believe the EMS 5839 part 1 radio system detectors have exactly this arrangement
Yes they do... but the systems are very expensive and beyond what a normal B&B owner would want to pay !!!
The detectors also have a "self sound" facility so you could make it alarm in the room of origin only if you wanted to.
However we also install a much better and cheaper euro compliant alternative that is an ideal retro fit system for hotels etc using a mix of hardwired and radio devices. Bit like the apollo expander but far more flexible....
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However we also install a much better and cheaper euro compliant alternative that is an ideal retro fit system for hotels etc using a mix of hardwired and radio devices. Bit like the apollo expander but far more flexible....
Tell us more?
I understood that EMS was the best but have yet to install one due to price!
Any info on any radio alarms gratefully accepted
Cheers
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EMS are good but there always seem to be battery issues.
The system we use uses Argus Vega protocol.... standard A/A control panel, devices are half the cost of EMS, 240 devices per loop mixed hardwired and radio, 32 devices per radio module that sits on the loop etc etc..... you need some decent training to be able to install and commission it as its not the simplest in the world.
It uses the new 868MHz European frequency so the range isn't as good as EMS but the components are much better looking and half the size.
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Regarding the 868MHz European frequency, all radio systems are being forced this way including the EMS system, therefore very soon they will all be on a like for like basis, 'signal strength wise'
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Regarding the 868MHz European frequency, all radio systems are being forced this way including the EMS system, therefore very soon they will all be on a like for like basis, 'signal strength wise'
True.... but as EN54-25 isn't in force yet, and there is bound to be a year or two for manufacturers to fall in to line once it is, they are in no hurry to comply, and their kit certainly won't be any cheaper....!!