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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Paul2886 on August 14, 2008, 04:45:25 PM
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Hopefully a simple question:
Were does it quote that it is mandatory (the law) to affix signage adjacent to fire extinguishers. If of course it is. Thanks
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Nowhere. What sort of signage in what sort of situation are you asking about.
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The Health & Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regs dont specify where and when a sign must be provided, however they do impose an overriding requirement that signs must be provided wherever a risk cannot be eliminated by other means.
Therefore the provision of any fire extinguisher sign should be based on your FRA.
It seems to be a common misconception that all fire extinguishers need to be indicated by signs. This is not the case at all. There will normally be no need for a sign if the equipment is obvious, but signs are relevant if the equipment is hidden from view.
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To quote the RRO guides - "Signs should indicate non-automatic fire safety equipment if there is any doubt about its
location, e.g. fire extinguishers that are kept in cabinets or in recesses."
The signage sales people can quote the statute itself as a reason to sign extinguishers as the way paragraph 13 is worded implies that although portable fire equipment is only required 'where necessary' it goes on to say "(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs."
So in summary:
The actual Order says- YES, sign all extinguishers
The official guides to the Order say- NO, only sign extinguishers not readily visible
As the guides are used by the enforcers I'd go with those.
My personal approach is - you must sign any extinguisher hidden in a recess or cabinet, or that has a polished aluminium or stainless steel finish, or that may be difficult to initially find in a large open area such as a warehouse. you may want to sign the others as an aid to correct identification & selection using the 'ID' type signs, but only if you so desire.
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AB,
Now that is great advice
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The RR(FS)O actually states: (my CAPITALS)
Fire-fighting and fire detection
13. —(1) WHERE NECESSARY (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and
(b) ANY NON-AUTOMATIC FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT SO PROVIDED IS so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and INDICATED BY SIGNS.
So it's the good 'where necessary' again, which many people (esp sign salesmen) seem to miss. My take is where extinguishers are hidden (in boxes, behind curtains etc) or other areas where they are not readily obvious.
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To quote the RRO guides - "Signs should indicate non-automatic fire safety equipment if there is any doubt about its
location, e.g. fire extinguishers that are kept in cabinets or in recesses."
The signage sales people can quote the statute itself as a reason to sign extinguishers as the way paragraph 13 is worded implies that although portable fire equipment is only required 'where necessary' it goes on to say "(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs."
So in summary:
The actual Order says- YES, sign all extinguishers
The official guides to the Order say- NO, only sign extinguishers not readily visible
As the guides are used by the enforcers I'd go with those.
My personal approach is - you must sign any extinguisher hidden in a recess or cabinet, or that has a polished aluminium or stainless steel finish, or that may be difficult to initially find in a large open area such as a warehouse. you may want to sign the others as an aid to correct identification & selection using the 'ID' type signs, but only if you so desire.
AB for me thats an excellent summary of a common sense approach to be had with extinguisher signage.Thank you.
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The RR(FS)O actually states: (my CAPITALS)
Fire-fighting and fire detection
13. —(1) WHERE NECESSARY (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and
(b) ANY NON-AUTOMATIC FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT SO PROVIDED IS so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and INDICATED BY SIGNS.
So it's the good 'where necessary' again, which many people (esp sign salesmen) seem to miss. My take is where extinguishers are hidden (in boxes, behind curtains etc) or other areas where they are not readily obvious.
That is how I see it. I would have thought that the extinguisher itself is suitable signage unless, as you say, it is hidden or concealed when additional signage would be appriopriate to indicate the presence of an extinguisher. Makes sense
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We provide a free of charge rigid plastic, photoluminescent sign with each extinguisher installed. Having signage looks more professional, gives the user a bit of easily read info (e.g. do not use on live elecs) and is cheap!
If customers want signs fitting adj to existing extinguishers we charge £3.00 each, very few decline but are free to do so. (some companies charge a lot more than this). If you go for signs, be aware of what you are getting, there is cheap rubbish available and you can easily get ripped off.
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That is how I see it. I would have thought that the extinguisher itself is suitable signage unless, as you say, it is hidden or concealed when additional signage would be appriopriate to indicate the presence of an extinguisher. Makes sense
Ditto.
I have seen quotes from companies running over £1000 for such signage. Every extinguisher, every call point, fire action notice by every call point, big sign about areas where call points and extinguishers were saying "Fire point".
"It is a big red thing on the wall, you can see it from miles away!"
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That is how I see it. I would have thought that the extinguisher itself is suitable signage unless, as you say, it is hidden or concealed when additional signage would be appriopriate to indicate the presence of an extinguisher. Makes sense
Ditto.
I have seen quotes from companies running over £1000 for such signage. Every extinguisher, every call point, fire action notice by every call point, big sign about areas where call points and extinguishers were saying "Fire point".
"It is a big red thing on the wall, you can see it from miles away!"
"I'm a fire extinguisher, is it me you're looking for" Sounds like a song - Lionel Richie?
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The RR(FS)O actually states: (my CAPITALS)
Fire-fighting and fire detection
13. —(1) WHERE NECESSARY (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and
(b) ANY NON-AUTOMATIC FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT SO PROVIDED IS so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and INDICATED BY SIGNS.
So it's the good 'where necessary' again, which many people (esp sign salesmen) seem to miss. My take is where extinguishers are hidden (in boxes, behind curtains etc) or other areas where they are not readily obvious.
That's where you are wrong it's all about the grammar and construction of the section. It is written so that:
1) fire fighting equipment is required where necessary, HOWEVER
b) ANY non automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is....indicated by signs
If where necessary applied to sub section (b) then you could have very complicated fire equipment that was difficult to access and unsigned if you thought that was OK.
Section 1 is optional, but subsection b is absolute & this is what the sign people jump on.
Fortunately the RRO guides are more realistic and in effect ignore sub section b with regards to signage in all cases
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Sorry Anthony, you can't have your cake and eat it.
Its says where necessary several times in the text ie RISK ASSESS RISK ASSESS RISK ASSESS
The RA lives with it as they do with all the other stuff
Spot on Messy!
davo
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I would disagree with your interpretation of the grammar.
"Where necessary" preceeds everything, so "where necessary" you should ensure that both conditions A and B are met.
If it was listed as
(2) Any non-automatic firefighting........ Then I would agree.
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To all the previous posters on this thread, explain this little gem for me then:
Put aside (if you can) the RRO and guides for a mo.
The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996
Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 341
PAGE 4
SCHEDULE 1
PART 1
(MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS REQUIRING SAFETY SIGNS AND SIGNALS AT WORK)
2. TYPES OF SIGN
2.1 PERMANENT SIGNS
2.1.1 .........Signboards and /or a safety colour must be used to permanently mark the location and identification of fire - fighting equipment.
Oh and by the way, the shell colour of an extinguisher is not classed as its' "location marking colour" as there is plenty of pre EN3 coloured kit still out there and the legal colour is RED.
So if you risk assess and say you don't need the fire equipment marking with a sign board or identification colour, (even if said equipment is in clear line of sight) you are in direct contravention of a government statute (but possibly not common sense).
But then again how many laws follow common sense ?
Therefore Paulm2886, it does say it. It is mandatory. And it is the law.
But which law prevails, because The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 has never been superceded ?? and this part leeches over into the RRO with conflicting messages.
Don't shoot the messenger. :D
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To all the previous posters on this thread, explain this little gem for me then:
Put aside (if you can) the RRO and guides for a mo.
The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996
Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 341
PAGE 4
SCHEDULE 1
PART 1
(MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS REQUIRING SAFETY SIGNS AND SIGNALS AT WORK)
2. TYPES OF SIGN
2.1 PERMANENT SIGNS
2.1.1 .........Signboards and /or a safety colour must be used to permanently mark the location and identification of fire - fighting equipment.
Oh and by the way, the shell colour of an extinguisher is not classed as its' "location marking colour" as there is plenty of pre EN3 coloured kit still out there and the legal colour is RED.
But is the colour and information on an extinguisher not a permanent mark of the location and identification of FFFE? It does say a signboard OR a safety colour. If you have BS extinguishers then that is what you have.
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Pre EN3
Powder - Blue
Foam - Beige
Co2 - Black (although they should have all gone by now)
S&S Regs
Page 5
Section 4
Fire Fighting Equipment - Colour - Red
e.g. Blue (pre EN3 dry powder shell colour) is not the legal safety colour for fire equipment signing
I am struggling to see any other interpretation of this statute other than the fact that you either need a sign (following the approved graphics listed later on) or you need to colour the location (the wall) red.
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If it was not for the fact the mark up on signs by some is astronomical the debate would be superfluous as the cost involved wouldn't make it worth arguing about.
Does anyone know of any notices issued for missing extinguisher signs where they are clearly visible. Would any of the posters who are FSOs ever issue such a notice?
After all there are several things that are against the law but in reality will never be enforced (generally not FS)
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You missed the Section en-titled Chubb Engineers.
It states you must install at least three signs per extinguisher unless you can get away with more, and once you have drained the life blood out of the customer add insult to ijury and sell them loads of exit signs, eventually the customer will give up and just hand over his blank cheque.
Sorry I just could not resist it.
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I thought this had been answered, sign those not seen or do not meet the standard and don't sign those you can see after all the indications on the signs are on the extinguisher as well.
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Re: Signs and Signals regs:
4.—(1) Paragraph (4) shall apply if the risk assessment made under paragraph (1) of regulation 3 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1992[4] indicates that the employer concerned, having adopted all appropriate techniques for collective protection, and measures, methods or procedures used in the organisation of work, cannot avoid or adequately reduce risks to employees except by the provision of appropriate safety signs to warn or instruct, or both, of the nature of those risks and the measures to be taken to protect against them.
So the fire risk assessment part of MHSW regs was changed over the RRO, so para 4 only applied on a risk assessed basis.
(3) Without prejudice to paragraph (1), sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) of paragraph (4) shall also apply in relation to fire safety signs where they are required to comply with the provisions of any enactment (whether in an Act or instrument).
Paragraph 4 (a) and (b) are the ones sending you to the schedule concerned, so if the RRO doesn't actually require them then it doesn't matter.
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Thats brilliant detective work Civvy- thanks for leading us out of that minefield.