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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Community Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mark on February 02, 2005, 09:32:39 AM
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Wireless smoke detectors have been of a huge benefit to large buildings especially historic ones where running a thrd connecting wire would be expensive and obtrusive.
Has anybody seen them fitted into NEW homes say, 2/3/4 bedroom terraced/semi/detached? I would of thought they would be too expensive and what would be the benfit of them over existing third wire systems?
Look fwd as always to your comments
Thx
Mark
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I'm not sure what you means by "third wire". Radio systems have no wires (except power to the main panel) and hard wired systems have loops of fire resisting cable (usualy with 2 or 4 cores) connecting the detectors to the main panel.
That said, I have not seen a radio linked system in a house like you describe. I would not expect to see them either. My experience is that the systems are not designed domestic use and due to the lack of wired power, battery maintenance is important, something often forgotten about in domestic situations where a hard wired system is a positive advantage.
The advantage of the radio systems are cheaper retro installtion (i.e. not really relevant with a new build) and no ugly wires (again in a new build the wires can be hidden anyway.)
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Chris,
I think Mark is talking about a savwire fire alarm system which uses 3 conductors, 2 are used for the detection circuit and the 3rd conductor is used to operate the sounders in alarm condition. These systems are still out there, these were the first fire alarm systems where you were able to have sounder and detectors together. Now its all loop powered so the old savewire is no virtually redundant.
hope this helps.
Gary
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ER you guys know your stuff.
I was thinking something along the lines of the Ei168 radiolink base.
Click on the link
http://www.eielectronics.com/pages/radiolink.html
Im just wondering if anybody has ny installed in new homes, and if so what is the benefit. I tend to be thinking along chris's views.
Thx
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Hi,
I only really know about non domestic applications, but I see even the link you sent refers to retrofit, which I think would be the only circumstances whereby a wire free system would have any arguable benefit over hard wired.
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Third wire is I think is reference to the 3 rd wire on domestic hard wired smoke & heat alarms; that carries the i/connect signal between the alarms.
Detectors is best reserved for heads that are part of a system with central control.
Wireless smoke detectors have been of a huge benefit to large buildings especially historic ones where running a thrd connecting wire would be expensive and obtrusive.
Has anybody seen them fitted into NEW homes say, 2/3/4 bedroom terraced/semi/detached? I would of thought they would be too expensive and what would be the benfit of them over existing third wire systems?
Look fwd as always to your comments
Thx
Mark
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Im grateful for all your messages
It does seem RF has its place in retrofit where the advantages can be clear (no third i/wire, no damage to decor) but these just disappear when applied to new build.
Does anbody know much about them. In larger installations I presume they have some monitoring system, assuring the end user they are in fact "communicating with each other"?
Thx
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Yes integrity of connection is key, and we know problems that TETRA caused to some consumer devices incl car alarm fobs when introduced.
Radio interference & EMI {Electro Magnetic} is an issue too; well engineered/BS Kitemarked products will have to undergo rigorous EMC testing {under various CE Directives} to ensure they do not emit such "nonsense"/are resistant to other products..but are they testing only other "kosher" products, not those bought at market last Saturday at really cheap prices!
Worry is the increasing range of electrical products in DIY outlets, with no standard approval [cos that's expensive/delays launch time] that can emit interference and potentially disrupt other devices.
1 example:
Apparently the increasing trend for some to cover their house with flashing Xmas Tree lights causes BT problems with customers broadband connections; ie neighbouring property can be affected even if it HAS NO ILLUMINATIONS!!
Thee problems will only increase I fear Mark!
Im grateful for all your messages
It does seem RF has its place in retrofit where the advantages can be clear (no third i/wire, no damage to decor) but these just disappear when applied to new build.
Does anbody know much about them. In larger installations I presume they have some monitoring system, assuring the end user they are in fact "communicating with each other"?
Thx
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Considering we are in the "security sector" integrity must over and above be of concern.
I was at a BRE conference last year and an American chap suggested to the panel, "When will all appliances in the home be interlinked wirelessly?" The reply was to look at the banking sector. Not one device is linked wirelessly as it is possible to hack and eavesdrop into their networks and nobody is able to convince them that it cannot happen. In other words if it does work, its no good saying that they do work....prove it? Until then, I am assured banks will not use wireless communications.
I can though see RF smoke detectors having a place in the domestic retro market, but how can I be sure that they work?
Thx
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In reply to the comments on RF smoke alarms for domestic use. As mentioned previously, Ei Electronics have a mains operated unit available and a battery operated version. There are also RF control devices that have test and silence facilities.
It is true that the cost is likely to deter the use of these units in New Build due to the relative low cost of installing cables in these. However, there is growing interest and acceptance of the system in retro-fit installations. As mentioned, immunity to interference is a critical point and to achieve this it is vital to choose the correct frequency and to have a unique coding protocol. Unfortunately, there are a number of cheap products currently on the market that have neither of these. Consequently, there is concern that thes may undermine the perception of RF smoke alarms in general. We have sold a considerable number of RF units to date without a recorded problem so, hopefully this assures everyone that the Ei products at least do not suffer interference problems.
I hope this has been of some use.
Neil Perdell
Technical Services Manager
Aico Ltd
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, but how can I be sure that they work?
a weekly test.
Have as earlier been mentioned installed a wire free Fire alarm system in a domestic house at owners request.
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And of course to be pedantic it's probably they're smoke not fire alarms, latter normally referring to a Part 1 panel system.
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It was a part 1 system not smoke alarms in a domestic situation by a customer's request.
the small details to which you were giving too much attention to were incorrect.
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Check out I Want That (http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/rm_safety_detectors_alarms/article/0,1797,HGTV_3791_3760236,00.html) and scroll down to "Kidde Wireless Smoke Alarms" section.
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AICO fire & Gas Detection - 0870 758 4000 - enquiries@aico.co.uk - www.aico.co.uk
The above company located in Oswestry Shropshire, manufacture a Residential radio link system.
I have not been involved personally with their system, but it may be worth getting their trade literature.
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Or see
http://www.kiddeus.com/KWSHomePage.shtml
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Chris,
I think Mark is talking about a savwire fire alarm system which uses 3 conductors, 2 are used for the detection circuit and the 3rd conductor is used to operate the sounders in alarm condition. These systems are still out there, these were the first fire alarm systems where you were able to have sounder and detectors together. Now its all loop powered so the old savewire is no virtually redundant.
hope this helps.
Gary
This is called a 3-Wire system and NOT Sav-Wire which is a recent (fairly) 2 wire system
Mike I