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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Benzerari on August 20, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
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My only enquiry about BS5839 is that when about they will make it so simple to be read and understood. It gives me headache when reading it, some times it seems to me there are long repetitive words and sentences just to say the same thing, i.e. why stating a long paragraph just to say the MCP should be fitted 1.4m above the floor, it seems to me that it can be re-written in more technical way with more tables, drawings, using many colors and less words and paragraphs.
I am not whether sure about what I am saying does make sense to the readers or only me feeling that, when reading the printout of BS5839...,
I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school, we used to use a simple technical data book which gives in a simple way the dimensions of any required mechanical pieces: screws, washers, pinions, bearings,…etc and also all required formulas…etc
Fortunately some generous members in this forum can answer just what is needed, when I get stacked :)
Thanks God
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That is the same for a lot of standards. I like Hallmark fire little book, especially the diagrams. The one on categories of Fire Alarms is excellent as a descriptive aid.
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My only enquiry about BS5839 is that when about they will make it so simple to be read and understood. It gives me headache when reading it, some times it seems to me there are long repetitive words and sentences just to say the same thing, i.e. why a stating big paragraph just to say the MCP should be fitted 1.4m above the floor, it seems to me that it can be rewritten in more technical way with more tables, drawings, using many colors and less words and paragraphs.
I am not whether sure about what I am saying does make sense to the readers or only me feeling that, when reading the printout of BS5839...,
I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school, we used to use a simple technical data book which gives in simple way the dimensions of any required mechanical pieces: screws, washers, pinions, bearings,…etc and also all required formulas…etc
Fortunately some generous members in this forum can answer just what is needed, when I get stacked :)
Thanks God
Don't take this the wrong way but although your English is on the whole excellent,you can sometimes misread or misinterpret what is written and the BS does not take this into account.
However,I will agree that the BS is hard going sometimes in that you can look to find one answer and get two different ones to the same query.This is because some of it is down to interpretation and it does need to be clearer.
I find Apollo's guide to be very helpful.
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I was once told on a course (and I can not remember who told me) that british standards are written by experts such as Colin Todd etc and then it goes to reveiw by the industry and then it is checked and re-written by Solicitors to ensure no law suits can come from it, and I think its the last bit where the confusion comes in.
Perhaps if any of the guys on the standards reveiw panels see this, may confirm or denigh this.
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My only enquiry about BS5839 is that when about they will make it so simple to be read and understood. It gives me headache when reading it, some times it seems to me there are long repetitive words and sentences just to say the same thing, i.e. why a stating big paragraph just to say the MCP should be fitted 1.4m above the floor, it seems to me that it can be rewritten in more technical way with more tables, drawings, using many colors and less words and paragraphs.
I am not whether sure about what I am saying does make sense to the readers or only me feeling that, when reading the printout of BS5839...,
I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school, we used to use a simple technical data book which gives in simple way the dimensions of any required mechanical pieces: screws, washers, pinions, bearings,…etc and also all required formulas…etc
Fortunately some generous members in this forum can answer just what is needed, when I get stacked :)
Thanks God
Don't take this the wrong way but although your English is on the whole excellent,you can sometimes misread or misinterpret what is written and the BS does not take this into account.
However,I will agree that the BS is hard going sometimes in that you can look to find one answer and get two different ones to the same query.This is because some of it is down to interpretation and it does need to be clearer.
I find Apollo's guide to be very helpful.
I do appreciate all hard effort of people, they have spent to set out these standards, and certainly it was not so easy, also I do agree my English is as much as My French and Arabic and none of them is 100% perfect.
However, the point I am trying to raise up is, the technical presentation makes things better understandable, there is some science called ‘InfoGraphy’, specifically developed to present information in its best ways and quickly understood and interpreted, using graphs, tables, colors and symbols and so on…
Why not taking advantage of that?
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I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school,
late eighties you old bugger. were you still using slate and chalk then?
perhaps you were at School with Buzzard?
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I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school,
late eighties you old bugger. were you still using slate and chalk then?
perhaps you were at School with Buzzard?
...tumbleweeds,tumbleweeds....
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Well Im stuffed then, I was at school in the 70's
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I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school,
late eighties you old bugger. were you still using slate and chalk then?
perhaps you were at School with Buzzard?
I am 42, what's ashame to me :cool:
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Well Im stuffed then, I was at school in the 70's
Had you ever seen Dinosaurs that days then? :D
Just Joking Thomas
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I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school,
late eighties you old bugger. were you still using slate and chalk then?
perhaps you were at School with Buzzard?
sarcasm sarcasm
i was at School then too.
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I remember when studding technical drawing in the late 80s in high school,
late eighties you old bugger. were you still using slate and chalk then?
perhaps you were at School with Buzzard?
I am 42, what's ashame to me :cool:
42....
i was at School in the late 80's but i would have been 14 in 88.
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late eighties you old bugger. were you still using slate and chalk then?
perhaps you were at School with Buzzard?
I am 42, what's ashame to me :cool:
42....
I was at School in the late 80's but I would have been 14 in 88.
Sorry it was 1986 my last year at the high school and had my baccalaureate, and not later
In 1988 I was at the second year at University, just about to finish the General Engineering Studies, I can even remember the mostly remarkable thing that days, is the equation of ‘Schrödinger’ which we (all students) hated, its solution is a differential equation that gives the probability of the existence of an electron in a given space and time, a lot of headache to get that module but at the end of the day none has ever used it at work...
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I must admit for every day ready reference the various design guides that manufacturers produce to make things easier for their customers are great & Hochiki have done a pocket version.
However for anything other than the everyday you need the full technical detail of the BS - it can be heavy going, but that's mainly because the technology has advanced so - I have a copy of the 1976 Home Office Educational Guide for fire alarm systems and it's a far simpler read not just because of style & layout, but the systems themselves were far simpler.
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I must admit for every day ready reference the various design guides that manufacturers produce to make things easier for their customers are great & Hochiki have done a pocket version.
However for anything other than the everyday you need the full technical detail of the BS - it can be heavy going, but that's mainly because the technology has advanced so - I have a copy of the 1976 Home Office Educational Guide for fire alarm systems and it's a far simpler read not just because of style & layout, but the systems themselves were far simpler.
Thanks Anthony for this, I agree technology is advancing in every bit of life and sectors, why other fields have got a simple data book to be used full of data and also updated a long with technology advancement?
The fire industry and in particular alarm industry is not considering that? The fact manufacturers of fire alarm equipments tried to make their own simple one?
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I must admit for every day ready reference the various design guides that manufacturers produce to make things easier for their customers are great & Hochiki have done a pocket version.
However for anything other than the everyday you need the full technical detail of the BS - it can be heavy going, but that's mainly because the technology has advanced so - I have a copy of the 1976 Home Office Educational Guide for fire alarm systems and it's a far simpler read not just because of style & layout, but the systems themselves were far simpler.
Thanks Anthony for this, I agree technology is advancing in every bit of life and sectors, why other fields have got a simple data book to be used full of data and also updated a long with technology advancement?
The fire industry and in particular alarm industry is not considering that? The fact manufacturers of fire alarm equipments tried to make their own simple one?
The thing is that you can have a book with simple diagrams showing typical solutions,detector spacing etc. but there are other factors that you have to consider when a situation arises that is not typical.
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I must admit for every day ready reference the various design guides that manufacturers produce to make things easier for their customers are great & Hochiki have done a pocket version.
However for anything other than the everyday you need the full technical detail of the BS - it can be heavy going, but that's mainly because the technology has advanced so - I have a copy of the 1976 Home Office Educational Guide for fire alarm systems and it's a far simpler read not just because of style & layout, but the systems themselves were far simpler.
Thanks Anthony for this, I agree technology is advancing in every bit of life and sectors, why other fields have got a simple data book to be used full of data and also updated a long with technology advancement?
The fire industry and in particular alarm industry is not considering that? The fact manufacturers of fire alarm equipments tried to make their own simple one?
The thing is that you can have a book with simple diagrams showing typical solutions,detector spacing etc. but there are other factors that you have to consider when a situation arises that is not typical.
Roughly, how many special situations are they? Comparing to the current and usual ones, I guess the special cases that need special engineering sound solutions are minor say 20% of the cases, the buildings are in general quite similar, but that should not be an obstacle for the usual 80% cases to be set out in a simple and clear technical pocket data book, why not?
Also the BS5839 printout could be programmed as an Expert system software style, with a help browser, which can display any possible case just by the click of mouse, with more drawings, diagrams, tables and so on, and more to the particular point searched... and this Expert system can be easily updated by the relevant experts, and just be published in a web site based application...
I think there are many ways to make things easy for use
The actual print out looks in my opinion full of paragraphs referenced in a law and legislation books style, it might be necessary to keep this classic style as the blue print but the practical one should be presented in more technical and easy way.
This is just my opinion.
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Obviously there are legal ramifications in respect of the wording used in any BS. The choice of the right words and punctuation is of paramount importance. Despite this there are still so many recommendations that are open to interpretation and I agree that it can be 'hard to get your head around' BS5839 Part 1 2002.
I believe that simplification might be achieved by recommending only one way of doing each thing. However, this might be somewhat restrictive to practices that have been around for years and work. Therefore BS often allows many ways of achieving the same objective by describing that objective in quite general terms.
The question I ask is 'Has anyone on Firenet got their head aound BS7273-4* yet?
This is an important standard for anyone involved in fire alarm systems and it even includes recommendations that vary recommendations of BS5839 part 1 2002.
Is anyone on Firenet in a position to give us all a summary of all, or maybe, the most important parts of it?
* BS 7273-4:2007 - Code of practice for the operation of fire protection measures. Actuation of release mechanisms for doors[/b]
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Obviously there are legal ramifications in respect of the wording used in any BS. The choice of the right words and punctuation is of paramount importance. Despite this there are still so many recommendations that are open to interpretation and I agree that it can be 'hard to get your head around' BS5839 Part 1 2002.
Thanks Wiz for this comfirmation, I though I am the only one who couldn't get my head around... , when trying to interprete BS5839...
I believe that simplification might be achieved by recommending only one way of doing each thing. However, this might be somewhat restrictive to practices that have been around for years and work. Therefore BS often allows many ways of achieving the same objective by describing that objective in quite general terms.
What is preventing BS to be programmed in sort of expert system and help browser style, and what could be left as special situations would be very minor...?
The question I ask is 'Has anyone on Firenet got their head aound BS7273-4* yet?
This is an important standard for anyone involved in fire alarm systems and it even includes recommendations that vary recommendations of BS5839 part 1 2002.
Is anyone on Firenet in a position to give us all a summary of all, or maybe, the most important parts of it?
* BS 7273-4:2007 - Code of practice for the operation of fire protection measures. Actuation of release mechanisms for doors [/b]
This enquiry is definitely not for me :)
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Wiz, in answer to your question, No. The set up in the BS is strange anyway and the content not consistent with other standards and that is of a concern as it seems to happen more often now. I wonder whether there is any xreferencing done between the standards or guidance before they are issued.
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I found it easy to read and understand.
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benz
why would you want a idiots guide to 5839-1. I personally don't want to make it easy enough for any tom,dick or harold to be able to do and if they can't get their heads round it as it is,then that should be a good indication that this is not the career for them.
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benz
why would you want a idiots guide to 5839-1.
Data books have never been idiot in all disciplines Grame, and will never be...
I personally don't want to make it easy enough for any tom,dick or harold to be able to do and ...
'Simplification' or 'Ease of use' is among the main purpose of the development of technology.
if they can't get their heads round it as it is,then that should be a good indication that this is not the career for them.
None can be expert in all bits of any sort of discipline... including 'you' and 'me' also your claim may dismiss every body from any discipline…
If you achieve to get your head round and know BS5839 by heart, this would not be all about fire alarm industry career, it's just part of it!
None is perfect mate :)
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I found it easy to read and understand.
Chris, if you are talking about the Sun newspaper, I agree. :) (I just look at the pictures!)
If you are talking about BS7273, can you please find time to provide us all with a summary.
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I found it easy to read and understand.
Chris, if you are talking about the Sun newspaper, I agree. :) (I just look at the pictures!)
If you are talking about BS7273, can you please find time to provide us all with a summary.
and Grame too :)
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Not read 7273, was talking about 5839. Sorry.
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Not read 7273, was talking about 5839. Sorry.
Shame. We could do with having an expert on it available.
Anyone else available?