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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Chris Houston on August 24, 2008, 04:02:14 AM
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I was very surprised to see a crowd of gents dressed in fire service clothing drinking in a nightclub in Stirling this morning. It is illegal to serve police officers in uniform intoxicating liquor, would of not be forbidden for fire service staff to drink and party in uniform?
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Fancy dress?
A few years ago for a local transport show a fire service contractor for special events - you know an old red fire engine and a volunteer crew in old fire service uniform- went out on the town in the appliance, parked it on double yellow lines outside the night club and painted the town red. Gave us local fire guys a real bad name - the organisation could not understand why I complained about it.
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maybe with the new family friendly shifts that seem to be coming in everywhere,they were having one on the way home from work!
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I'm pretty sure it was not fancy dress. The were a few hundred miles from home, so prob not on their way home from work, but either way, youngont see ambulance or police staff drinking in uniform. So is it prohibited? Does seem odd to me. They managed to avoid the long queue at the entrance, as enforcers of legislation you wonder how the club management felt about their visit. Seems unprofessional to me.
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As far as I know it's not illegal.
My Brigade have a policy than bans staff entering buildings where alcohol is served Except on official business, and drinking alcohol (in any circumstances) whilst wearing 'recognisable LFB uniform'. Seems fair enough to me.
I think this mirror's Police drinking policies as it's not rare to see off duty coppers with jackets or jumpers over their police shirts in boozers whatever the weather. Although everyone in the pub knows they're coppers, it's clear that they are off duty.
However I have been warned by a senior officer that if I have a drink on the way home even wearing my Brigade shoes, as they have LFB stamped into the side, this makes them 'recognisable uniform' and I'd be in contravention of the rules. - Mind you, he is an absolute pillock and jobsworth, so it didn't surprise me he would interpret the rules anally!!
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They were in stirling for the extrication challenge, as was i. As the event finished late at Stirling castle and it was pouring with rain i imagine they probably chose to go straight out in uniform rather than delay further a very well earned bit of 'r and r'. Why is this bringing the service into disrepute? Most people drink dont they?
Door staff were making exceptions to dress codes and inviting crews to queue jump, they seemed to want to welcome us for some reason.
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Yeah but I think the Public assume if you're in uniform you are on duty and it weakens the integrity of the role model we expect of public servants.
Yes there are exceptions such as retirement functions where it is clear that it is a special event and someone has to be on duty and will not want to miss it but as a general rule I think it more likely than not to reinforce old stereotypes that the service is keen to distance itself from.
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I think thats a fair enough point about old stereotypes but lets not forget that most of the guys up there were doing at least part of it in their own time (not to mention the hours of training they did in their own time to qualify) and they had no choice but wear uniform to the ceremony, only a few of them stayed in uniform for whatever reason.
There was not a bit of trouble in Stirling that night and everyone seemed in no doubt whatsoever about the integrity of hundreds of fire service staff who were letting their hair down after giving so much over the last 3 days, the people of stirling seemed happy to join the party.
I know its about public perception but even if there were complaints, and i doubt there was, whats wrong with an explanation?
I'm sure i would feel differently if there had been ill feeling or problems in Stirling that night but there wasn't, it was a town centre full of some of the best PR money didnt have to buy.
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Good points well made chappie.
How did the challenge go?
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It was the first one we have attended and we got through to the final day so we were made up. The organisation, facilities, atmosphere and standards on show were outstanding. Bring on next year.
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Aside from skipping the queue, everyone seemed on their best behaviour, I am not suggesting otherwise, but it does seem odd for them to attend an event like this and not bring a shirt to change into, unless of course they made a concious choice to go out in their uniforms, which to me seems surprising.
I've never seen soldiers, police offiers or ambulance staff clubbing, drinking and dancing in their uniforms, I just wonder why the fire service consider it acceptable when the others don't.
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I blame the Labour Government and their modernistaion agenda, turning a professional job into something that anyone does. AND that is said with no disrespect to the serving staff at all, its just that it is a different job now. I attended a fete today with a fire appliance there and they had all the lockers open. My first Guv would have died rather than let us out with the equipment in the state they had it. Fire Safety leaflets were left in a pile on the ground and the crew, some with LS medal ribbons up, sat on the grass drinking tea and coffee and let the public get on with it, climbing in and out of the cab, touching gear and playing with BA sets.
The public and children loved it of course and went away happy, I was saddened though by the issues I saw.
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I've never seen soldiers, police offiers or ambulance staff clubbing, drinking and dancing in their uniforms, I just wonder why the fire service consider it acceptable when the others don't.
Havn't you seen the old war time films on the telly Chris? If they are a true representation of the time the soldiers and airmen lived in their uniform even when on leave. But you are right about Policemen.
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Hi Chris
Whilst not illegal it is a disciplinary offence in both the brigades I serve to be seen wearing uniform whilst drinking in a public bar. Private functions are subject to different policies and wearing of uniform is permitted in specific situations.
Shopping in the local supermarket in uniform is very much frowned upon - infact as is any public activity when off duty wearing uniform and rightly so in my opinion.
I totally agree with you - I simply dont like seeing any member of the uniformed services drinking in uniform. It sends out the wrong message, and to me is totally unproffesional.
Furthermore it could be construde as either posing or worse, abuse of authority to some people.
Im 100% sure that was not the case with lads up in Scotland, but even still we have to think of the public's perception.
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Shopping in the local supermarket in uniform is very much frowned upon - infact as is any public activity when off duty wearing uniform and rightly so in my opinion.
Furthermore it could be construde as either posing or worse, abuse of authority to some people.
The government are asking the service men/women of the armed forces to wear their uniforms in public. I agree that they should be able to this and show off the fact that they do a job (that they are proud of) to the public. As long as they are not acting in a way to cause concern or damage the service in any way. If this is seen as posing so be it....they deserve it.
This will definately not cover them going to public bars etc!
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Shopping in the local supermarket in uniform is very much frowned upon - infact as is any public activity when off duty wearing uniform and rightly so in my opinion.
Furthermore it could be construde as either posing or worse, abuse of authority to some people.
The government are asking the service men/women of the armed forces to wear their uniforms in public. I agree that they should be able to this and show off the fact that they do a job (that they are proud of) to the public. As long as they are not acting in a way to cause concern or damage the service in any way. If this is seen as posing so be it....they deserve it.
This will definately not cover them going to public bars etc!
Hi Smokescreen
Sorry when I said uniformed services I meant the uniformed emergency services
As you say the armed forces are a different kettle of fish in this respect.
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Not a problem, just sticking up for the guys out there who serve!
I used to and never got the chance to wear uniform off the base although would have liked to, but things are finally moving on and hopefully the country will support the forces more and more in the future, and blame the people who send them places instead.
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Uniform is a t shirt and a pair of blue trousers for most guys I see on the run. Or would you put your posh uniform on just for the babes at the Kings Head?
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Although I totally disagree with members of all the emergency services drinking alcohol in public places while dressed in uniform, I think there is something to be said for mixing with the local community in which we work. I remember there was an initiative with the Police not so long back encouraging them to take their breaks in local cafes etc.
As we want to be seen as part of the community it seems to make sense that we should be seen doing the things everyone else does, buying a paper on the way to work, stopping for a tea break on the way to a fire safety audit etc. I think it shows us in a more sociable light, and will most likely present opportunities e.g. the lady in the newsagents "I didn't know you were a firefighter, my daughter is interested in joining how would she go about it?" etc.
As long as someone isn't trying to gain favour by wearing their uniform I can't see a problem. Is it 'posing' or is it being proud to show what you do for a living?
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I popped to the shop today to buy some milk, I saw a copper walking into the supermarket ahead of me. I assumed someone has been caught pinching. When I got to the checkout, he bought bread, then left. How silly of me.
Not really relevant, just tend to forget that the police need sandwiches too.
Seriously though, I shop quite a bit in uniform. Especially as it has been decided that at my (retained) station, that we should be turning out for firecalls in uniform underneath the PPE, involving getting changed into working rig either before or after getting to the station. Or wearing it all day anyway... No one seems to mind. The odd nosy person asks about the time when they last saw the appliance or whatever...
Pubs are a big no-no. Even the plain navy blue T-Shirts.
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Not even after drill night any more Toby? How times have changed ;)
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Seriously though, I shop quite a bit in uniform. Especially as it has been decided that at my (retained) station, that we should be turning out for firecalls in uniform underneath the PPE, involving getting changed into working rig either before or after getting to the station. Or wearing it all day anyway... No one seems to mind. The odd nosy person asks about the time when they last saw the appliance or whatever...
Pubs are a big no-no. Even the plain navy blue T-Shirts.
Here's a question...Do we actually need uniforms?
We need uniformity to look smart and professional, but in terms of UNDRESS uniform do we really need all the regalia or words and badges emblazened on our clothes? Or could all firefighters just wear plain blue t shirts and trousers and black shoes with no markings.
(im not talking about working rigs or any other situation where a persons role / seniority needs to be need to be identified at a glance - i.e. police officer / firefighter in fire kit for instance)
Do inspecting officers need uniforms or could they simply wear suits?
Are ranking markings really required ?
Do I really need the brigade badge plastered or big words proclaiming I work for the fire service? on my shirt?
I think uniforms can put up barriers and otherwise don't do very much.
Does the RP need to see me in a uniform to know who I am? No... HSE and other enforcing agencies dont wear uniforms, so why do I?
Toby,
I couldn't / wouldnt do that - I'd feel too self concious - would feel a poser if I was out and about in uniform doing my shopping.
And does your brigade state that (heaven forbid) if you got injured / burnt they would look at what you were wearing underneath your fire kit? Ive heard rumours they are looking at ways not to pay out on firefighters having to leave the job because of long term work related / sustained injuries etc
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And does your brigade state that (heaven forbid) if you got injured / burnt they would look at what you were wearing underneath your fire kit?
Funny you mention that, as a fire fighter in the RAF we were issued boxer shorts, socks and t shirts that we were had to wear underneath our fire kit. Is that the same with other brigades?
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And does your brigade state that (heaven forbid) if you got injured / burnt they would look at what you were wearing underneath your fire kit?
Funny you mention that, as a fire fighter in the RAF we were issued boxer shorts, socks and t shirts that we were had to wear underneath our fire kit. Is that the same with other brigades?
Socks yes - boxer shorts no...which is a good job really as I much prefer to wear thongs (and occasionally g- Strings on a saturday night)
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I think many posters who do not like uniformed firefighters drinking in public are of the opinion that those who do will end up with their heads in the gutter by closing time. So having a glass of beer in a pub in uniform makes one a drunken slob then?
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters smoking in public? Smoking kills thousands of people every year.
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters driving a car in public? Cars kill thousands of people every year.
It is all about people's behaviour and conduct whilst in uniform. Some would seem to suggest that if you are in uniform you can't have good of either.
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I think many posters who do not like uniformed firefighters drinking in public are of the opinion that those who do will end up with their heads in the gutter by closing time. So having a glass of beer in a pub in uniform makes one a drunken slob then?
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters smoking in public? Smoking kills thousands of people every year.
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters driving a car in public? Cars kill thousands of people every year.
It is all about people's behaviour and conduct whilst in uniform. Some would seem to suggest that if you are in uniform you can't have good of either.
I think it's about perception. If I was to see a group of firefighters in uniform drinking in a pub (if I knew nothing about the fire service) I would probably think that they were on duty.
I think the problems of consuming even moderate amounts of alcohol are well documented; affected judgement, increased agressiveness (watch Street Wars on TV) hence drink driving laws etc. Smoking (unless its drugs etc) or driving a car doesn't have this effect.
Most of the watch nights out I have been on in the past have resulted in somebody being the worse for wear. Imagine if the Sun or Daily Mail got hold of a picture of a drunken firefighter lying in the gutter covered in his/her own vomit. They would have a field day, and the readers would think that was the way every firefighter behaved as we have seen from items posted on this site in the past.
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I think many posters who do not like uniformed firefighters drinking in public are of the opinion that those who do will end up with their heads in the gutter by closing time. So having a glass of beer in a pub in uniform makes one a drunken slob then?
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters smoking in public? Smoking kills thousands of people every year.
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters driving a car in public? Cars kill thousands of people every year.
It is all about people's behaviour and conduct whilst in uniform. Some would seem to suggest that if you are in uniform you can't have good of either.
I think it's about perception. If I was to see a group of firefighters in uniform drinking in a pub (if I knew nothing about the fire service) I would probably think that they were on duty.
I think the problems of consuming even moderate amounts of alcohol are well documented; affected judgement, increased agressiveness (watch Street Wars on TV) hence drink driving laws etc. Smoking (unless its drugs etc) or driving a car doesn't have this effect.
Most of the watch nights out I have been on in the past have resulted in somebody being the worse for wear. Imagine if the Sun or Daily Mail got hold of a picture of a drunken firefighter lying in the gutter covered in his/her own vomit. They would have a field day, and the readers would think that was the way every firefighter behaved as we have seen from items posted on this site in the past.
Perception is a personnal thing that should not be used to represent the views of the masses.
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Perception is a personnal thing that should not be used to represent the views of the masses.
Very philosophical.
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I think many posters who do not like uniformed firefighters drinking in public are of the opinion that those who do will end up with their heads in the gutter by closing time. So having a glass of beer in a pub in uniform makes one a drunken slob then?
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters smoking in public? Smoking kills thousands of people every year.
How do people feel about uniformed firefighters driving a car in public? Cars kill thousands of people every year.
It is all about people's behaviour and conduct whilst in uniform. Some would seem to suggest that if you are in uniform you can't have good of either.
Morning NT
Can't argue with anything you have said But lets face it perceptions / prejudices do exist and you can see the uproar that might ensue if the papers got hold of story / pics as John describes.Infact i suspect its one of the reasons Mrs Retty doesn't allow me out after work!
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And does your brigade state that (heaven forbid) if you got injured / burnt they would look at what you were wearing underneath your fire kit? Ive heard rumours they are looking at ways not to pay out on firefighters having to leave the job because of long term work related / sustained injuries etc
Yes. Thats the reason given. Fair enough to be honest, but it's only a recent thing and it obviously effects how fast you are able to get yourselves on the appliance and get mobile. A minor annoyance, that I have gotten used to.
They have given me socks, but I am at present still free to wear the missus' knickers while on fire calls.
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Just seems a bit of a big deal over nothing to me, firefighters are more than capable of lowering the publics image of the sercice, whether at a fete on duty or a pub off duty. That night was pouring down with rain, i reckon they just got caught between stirling castle and the university accomodation with no change of clothes. No big deal.