FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: Benzerari on September 09, 2008, 09:20:20 PM
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Guys; little enquiry
For some one to start his own alarm business, is LPCB registration a must, to carry on alarm jobs, just as a service company doing; servicing commissioning, and fault finding... etc
And is there any other registrations, that has to be considered?
Thank you
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Is it a must? Most alarm companies are not LPCB registered. What does it cost to join and how does the cost benefit analysis work for a new company starting his business? What about the FIA?
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Is it a must? Most alarm companies are not LPCB registered. What does it cost to join and how does the cost benefit analysis work for a new company starting his business? What about the FIA?
Question explained by other questions, some one once said, what is water? the answer was it's just water :)
Indeed waiting for other feedbacks...
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Ive been in this industry quite a while and have never been asked for LPCB registration ever. I always ensure that the products i use have the registration but not as an engineer.
I feel things like having the British Standard Kitemark and being ECA approved or BAFE etc would be more benificial.
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Ive been in this industry quite a while and have never been asked for LPCB registration ever. I always ensure that the products i use have the registration but not as an engineer.
I feel things like having the British Standard Kitemark and being ECA approved or BAFE etc would be more benificial.
BAFE! indeed, also I have been told that LPCB registration is for manufacturers of fire alarm systems's equipments and not for service companies! is that correct?
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LPCB encompasses LPS1014, which the installed, commissioning and servicing company would obtain.
Unlike BAFE approval scheme SP203, which is modular... i.e. a fire alarm company could gain SP203, in just installation or just commissioning or just servicing etc, LPS1014 is unlike this and therefore you must prove competenance in all these areas.
A fire alarm company may claim to have the BAFE SP203 certificate, but one should then as them which modules this covers.
Generally I find Government projects will require a company certified to LPS1014, although more and mroe 'major' organisations are asking for it, i.e. banking chains, and also insurance companies are increasingly requesting the fire detection system is installed to LPS1014.
Incidentelly, ince a new system is installed to LPS1014 and certified to this it must then be maintained by an LPS1014 company to validate the certificate.
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LPCB encompasses LPS1014, which the installed, commissioning and servicing company would obtain.
Unlike BAFE approval scheme SP203, which is modular... i.e. a fire alarm company could gain SP203, in just installation or just commissioning or just servicing etc, LPS1014 is unlike this and therefore you must prove competenance in all these areas.
A fire alarm company may claim to have the BAFE SP203 certificate, but one should then as them which modules this covers.
Generally I find Government projects will require a company certified to LPS1014, although more and mroe 'major' organisations are asking for it, i.e. banking chains, and also insurance companies are increasingly requesting the fire detection system is installed to LPS1014.
Incidentelly, ince a new system is installed to LPS1014 and certified to this it must then be maintained by an LPS1014 company to validate the certificate.
Thanks Bigfella for this bit of light,
1 - Would SP203 covering all modules be equivalent to LPS1014?
2 - On what basis Government projects requires a company certified to LPS1014 rather than SP203?
3 - Is BAFE more Government related rather than LPCB?
4 - Why BAFE and LPCB are not setting up one standard certification rather than two?
5 - If the FIA (Ex-BFPSA) is in charge to train engineers to do install, servicing, commissioning by the book, why should a company needs extra certification (as a company) such LPS1014 or SP203?
6 - Why FIA, BAFE, LPCB are not acting to setup one single standard certification?
I just would to understand how things are sewed!
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benz
your little smilie in your avatar says it all......:D
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Why are they not working to set up a single standard ect ?.
It is this simple, They
a) All think they have the best idea's
b) make to much money to let any control go to someone else.
You also have to tip your hat to BAFE as being the best at marketing, they claim to be the governing body and are approved by everyone and usually have a massive presence at every fire exhibition or show going. All this and up to recently only had two employees.
Although the FIA and Bafe claim to be separate bodies, with them both using the same offices and sharing some of the staff I can not see how they can be separate.
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I for one will hopefully be retired gracefully before all this nonsense becomes an eventual reality.
I am all for a level playing field , but until you stop selling branded gear over a trade counter to all unsundry it makes a complete joke of the matter.
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Sales??
Oh no, please don't tell me these Must Have membership bodies are in it just for membership sales and backslapping???......Surely not..the, the, the dream of Quality has just been ruined!!!!!!
:(
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benz
your little smilie in your avatar says it all......:D
I am still stack in many issues these last days, will tel about in due time, that's what the avatar picture reflects :)
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Only Thomas brook's answer was centralized into the gravity center, and thanks Thomas for that. However:
Guys; I am still more concerned to know about the inquiries posted previously, so any positive answers are more than grate
Thank you
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'centralised into the gravity centre' .......... wow ........ impressed ........... intimidated!
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Outstandings: ( ? )
1 - Would SP203 covering all modules be equivalent to LPS1014?
2 - On what basis Government projects requires a company certified to LPS1014 rather than SP203?
3 - Is BAFE more Government related rather than LPCB?
4 - Why BAFE and LPCB are not setting up one standard certification rather than two?
5 - If the FIA (Ex-BFPSA) is in charge to train engineers to do install, servicing, commissioning by the book, why should a company needs extra certification (as a company) such LPS1014 or SP203?
6 - Why FIA, BAFE, LPCB are not acting to setup one single standard certification?
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Outstandings: ( ? )
1 - Would SP203 covering all modules be equivalent to LPS1014?
NOT DIRECTLY
2 - On what basis Government projects requires a company certified to LPS1014 rather than SP203?
BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR PREFERENCE
3 - Is BAFE more Government related rather than LPCB?
4 - Why BAFE and LPCB are not setting up one standard certification rather than two?
BECAUSE THEY EACH THINK THAT THEY ARE BETTER THAN THE OTHER ONE
5 - If the FIA (Ex-BFPSA) is in charge to train engineers to do install, servicing, commissioning by the book, why should a company needs extra certification (as a company) such LPS1014 or SP203?
PREFERENCE
6 - Why FIA, BAFE, LPCB are not acting to setup one single standard certification?
SEE 4!!
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1 I'd guess so
2 don't understand the question
3 nope. Both independent.
4 competition is a GOOD thing
5 I think FIA is a trade body - I.e. They are there to promote members interests first while the others should be more like regulators.
6 they are in competition with each other. This is a GOOD thing
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In my opinion; if (FIA, BAFE, LPCB) are unified in one strong body, they all will gain much prosperity, quality, and efficiency... and for all sides, this costs much better than individual profits gained through competition. But, I agree unification will take much time to occur till substantial requirements are well identified. Since building is much harder than splitting... :)
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i was asked yesterday what is the point of companies who sit the FIA courses and pass then have to go and get third party accreditation.
simple answer for me as i only had to look at half the numpties from intruder companies trying to make a few quid in fire who all struggled with the design course and only passed by help and looking over their mates shoulder.
It would be a joke if they then were fully qualified to do fire as it was blatantly obvious they were out their depths on a course that was easy if you already had a fire background.
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In my opinion; if (FIA, BAFE, LPCB) are unified in one strong body, they all will gain much prosperity, quality, and efficiency... and for all sides, this costs much better than individual profits gained through competition. But, I agree unification will take much time to occur till substantial requirements are well identified. Since building is much harder than splitting... :)
And presumably you also think it would be good for shoppers if Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and all the other supermarkets joined together to make loads more money and saves us having to choose between different shops?
Of course not, competition keeps the price down and gives buyers a choice.
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In my opinion; if (FIA, BAFE, LPCB) are unified in one strong body, they all will gain much prosperity, quality, and efficiency... and for all sides, this costs much better than individual profits gained through competition. But, I agree unification will take much time to occur till substantial requirements are well identified. Since building is much harder than splitting... :)
And presumably you also think it would be good for shoppers if Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and all the other supermarkets joined together to make loads more money and saves us having to choose between different shops?
Of course not, competition keeps the price down and gives buyers a choice.
This is a good example probably in the general business related..., but I think it doesn't totally much the case in here..., since getting certified to FIA, BAFE and/or LPCB, is like buying the trade mark, to get your business well considered by others (your customers), while shopping from Asda, Morison or Tesco..., is not going to influence much people, as the product will end up to be consumed (in the Tammy) or in some other ways...,
Otherwise some other group of experts from industry and academia and they actually exist, will carry on their own research in fire engineering and then setup other standard than BS, in which in your thought, it's part of the competition and it will be good...?
Therefore, we will be in a similar position..., this can happen, since not every thing is covered in BS, and not every thing is mentioned is clear enough to all users, it depends to their interpretations too...?
What do you think?
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Also in my understanding, none of them is better than the others, every one is just good enough, and every one could definitely be better off if unified with others... and the reasons as stated previously, since these bodies FIA, BAFE and LPCB are all nationals they do exist in the same country, and not in different countries and continents, Further more BS and EN are trying as much as they can to be one standard, and similar to other standards too, why still giving justifications by the name of competition..., to local (national) bodies FIA, BAFE and LPCB for not being one body.
What do you think? :)
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i was asked yesterday what is the point of companies who sit the FIA courses and pass then have to go and get third party accreditation.
simple answer for me as i only had to look at half the numpties from intruder companies trying to make a few quid in fire who all struggled with the design course and only passed by help and looking over their mates shoulder.
It would be a joke if they then were fully qualified to do fire as it was blatantly obvious they were out their depths on a course that was easy if you already had a fire background.
Also, the fundamental difference is that fire industry is well backed by the legislation..., while Intruder industry is NOT, since it still down to the tenant to cover their property from burglars. If they don’t, they would blame only themselves if… :)
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There are already plenty alternatives to British Standards. NFPA standards, FM Global standards, UL standards, LPCB standards.
Alternative approval bodies is not unique to the fire alarm trade either. Intruder alarm contractors can seek NSI or SSAIB accreditation. Electricians can choose between ECA and NICEIC.
I still think that competition is good, that it keeps the service providers on their toes and costs down.
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There are already plenty alternatives to British Standards. NFPA standards, FM Global standards, UL standards, LPCB standards.
Alternative approval bodies is not unique to the fire alarm trade either. Intruder alarm contractors can seek NSI or SSAIB accreditation. Electricians can choose between ECA and NICEIC.
I still think that competition is good, that it keeps the service providers on their toes and costs down.
Thanks Chris this is new to me I found it in: http://www.fmglobal.com/page.aspx?id=50010102
But; one single course that costs about £300 just to tell me what's written in BS and tels me his own version of interpretation, didn't cut the cost down, didn't? Also the cost of each BS printout is still even more than £300. where is the benefit of this competition?
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The concept that "the more people selling something, the lower the price will be" is basic economics. I think greater minds then myself have adequatly proven the theory over the years without me needing to explain it on FireNet.
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The concept that "the more people selling something, the lower the price will be" is basic economics. I think greater minds then myself have adequatly proven the theory over the years without me needing to explain it on FireNet.
You don't need to explain the general theory, it's fairly clear, it's rather its application to the issue we are talking about which is not ???? :)
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the prices seem reasonable to me. You suggestion of mergers seems unlikely to result in the merged organisation choosing to drop prices after eliminating what competition previously existed.
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the prices seem reasonable to me. You suggestion of mergers seems unlikely to result in the merged organisation choosing to drop prices after eliminating what competition previously existed.
If merging up the businesses will soar up the prices, because of no more competition, I would be the first to drop out, the idea of merging businesses... :)
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Nearly; £3 Billion/year have been spent, but are we doing enough? To prevent fire from killing, damaging, struggling businesses... etc?
Does it deserve?
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Chris, I tried going in a supermarket recently, but couldnt find anyone to take my shopping list and go and fetch thinks like when my mum used to go to the coop when I was a kid. I wont be going back to one whether it is tescos or sainsburys so as far as I am concerned thay can amalgamate them all. Where did the shop asistants all go.
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Benz when we looked at joining LPCB about 8 years ago it was going to cost around £20k just to join.
I was told recently that since it came in there are still less than 100 LPS1014 certificates ever been issued.....!!
The joining fee alone made it good sense to join the BAFE scheme.....!!
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You were told wrong. Its weapons of mass destruction all over again.
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Benz when we looked at joining LPCB about 8 years ago it was going to cost around £20k just to join.
I was told recently that since it came in there are still less than 100 LPS1014 certificates ever been issued.....!!
The joining fee alone made it good sense to join the BAFE scheme.....!!
So the main issue of their differences, is the joining fee then? :)
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which bit...... the £20k ish which we were quoted or the number of certs (admittedly this came from the BAFE man.....) ??
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which bit...... the £20k ish which we were quoted or the number of certs (admittedly this came from the BAFE man.....) ??
It's in fact lots of issues..., which are not obvious; fire industry is not really yet dealing with high tech! And who knows if it will remain in the same trend or take other directives..., it occupies actually an important part of the UK’s economy, due to the legislation which is strongly backing it, main while so many institutions have been set up while in fact they are doing the same thing and every one says, ‘I have better cooking beans’.
While it should be one single institution dealing with standard’s matters and audit for their applications..., some see it as competition..., other would like BS to remain published such as a legislations books, instead of more technical data books, illustrating information in more technical ways with diagrams, figures, tables..., just like in any other disciplines...etc!
What about the registration issue, why should it be a third party to assess a company, in fact the third party read the same print out of BS, exactly the way a non-literate read it, certainly it's the issue of interpretations too, but why should a company follow some one else interpretation, and on what basis?
And … and … and … will never end!
(http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr87/BenzFerari/violent41.gif)