FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Davidrh on September 19, 2008, 07:48:19 PM
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Can anyone tell me what technical problems I might have simply changing over HD' to SD's
ie. Is it a job for a competant handyman, an electrician or a certified fire alarm installer.
Can it be done in small amounts (ie say 3/4 at a time)
Does it have any effect at all on the system installed (non addressable)
I ask because I have so much contrary advise.
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I'd say any work on a fire alarm system should be done by a fire alarm engineer.
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Can anyone tell me what technical problems I might have simply changing over HD' to SD's
ie. Is it a job for a competant handyman, an electrician or a certified fire alarm installer.
Can it be done in small amounts (ie say 3/4 at a time)
Does it have any effect at all on the system installed (non addressable)
I ask because I have so much contrary advise.
Firstable what's the reason making you changing the HD to SD?
I think what ever the reason, the risk assessor who can tel you if you can do so! I used to see, boiler room, bathroom...etc, converted to offices, bedrooms...etc. if it's the case, the risk assessor would avice you to do so. or if the smoke free policy is your main reason...etc
As for; who should do so? I would recommend the service company itself, who is in charge of servicing your system, pay her the right amount of money, and avoid any problems that might come up, if the job is carried out by none competent person!
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Devices will need to be fully tested for fire condition and fault condition. A certificate issued to say that the system has been commissioned in accordance with the British Standard.
At the end of the day, it's a life safety system... To save lives !!! Not to cut corners
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Can anyone tell me what technical problems I might have simply changing over HD' to SD's
ie. Is it a job for a competant handyman, an electrician or a certified fire alarm installer.
Can it be done in small amounts (ie say 3/4 at a time)
Does it have any effect at all on the system installed (non addressable)
I ask because I have so much contrary advise.
Davidrh, technically, the simplest method is to ensure that you choose detectors of the same manufacturer and range, and the job should basically just be a matter of unplugging one and plugging in the other (this is not the case with addressable systems and possibly not with non-addressable detectors of other manufacture or range). Any amount of replacements could be carried out at the same time with due consideration to the impact of having detectors 'missing' from the system at any time.
Also you are talking about HD to SD. It is not so straightforward doing it the other way around.
Also there are different types of SD and it could be argued that one type is better than the other in certain locations, so this might be a consideration.
However the most important part of the project is testing that the new smoke detector is working properly. Since engineers generally only use a smoke aerosol to check the detector generates a fire condition I can't see that this anything particularly difficult for anyone to do.
The final check would be to ensure that removal of the detector from the base generates a 'detector removed' fault at the control panel. Again this is not technically difficult to check!
However, as other posts have alluded to, whoever carried out this work would be legally responsible for doing it. If something went wrong, that person may have to prove in a court of law that they were competent enough to have carried out the work.
n.b. - all of the above advice is totally based on changing a heat detector to a smoke detector whilst retaining the existing mounting base in a non-addressable system.
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Would you ask your handyman to do the gas on your boiler ?
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Can anyone tell me what technical problems I might have simply changing over HD' to SD's
ie. Is it a job for a competant handyman, an electrician or a certified fire alarm installer.
Can it be done in small amounts (ie say 3/4 at a time)
Does it have any effect at all on the system installed (non addressable)
I ask because I have so much contrary advise.
David
No such thing as a competant handy man for fire alarms. No to an electrician as they are mostly as competant as a handy man with fire alarms.
As Wiz mentioned pretty straight forward to do if you can source the same detectors that fit the same base. Although if it was me and i found cheapo(not saying this is the case) detectors,i would install quality ones in which i would also need to change the bases.
If we are talking about bedrooms which i think we are then i would recommend installing mutisensors to reduce on unwanted alarms.
The effect on the system would be only to improve it as heat detection should only really be installed where smoke can't.
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You will also have to be wary of the location of the present heat detector if it is (as is most likely) outside trhe bathroom and at the door in.You change this to a smoke and you are liable to get false alarms due to steam (wouldn't like someone getting stung £1600 for accidentally setting the fire alarm of due to a design fault - sorry,couldn't resist!).
Allen
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You will also have to be wary of the location of the present heat detector if it is (as is most likely) outside trhe bathroom and at the door in.You change this to a smoke and you are liable to get false alarms due to steam (wouldn't like someone getting stung £1600 for accidentally setting the fire alarm of due to a design fault - sorry,couldn't resist!).
Allen
You mean there was a design fault with the cigarette? They gave off too much smoke for the detector or something? Thats shows a complete lack of common sense by the smoker not to take into consideration the limitations of the system. No excuses, she should have checked. I'm sure its says something about the maximum permitted smoke concentration in the bedroom's information booklet. Ain't that right David?
Maybe she could sue the cigarette manufacturer, say for £1600 plus costs.
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Ok Ok..I get the joke (you are joking Yes/No)
Come and s-t-a-y at my hotel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(and set your alarms for 3.00am)
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Ok Ok..I get the joke (you are joking Yes/No)
Come and s-t-a-y at my hotel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(and set your alarms for 3.00am)
Joking yes!
But check your locations before changing your heats to smokes.
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Would you ask your handyman to do the gas on your boiler ?
excatly. keep your handy man doing things like putting up pictures and repairing a tap washer.
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How come a qualified electrian cannot change an HD to SD.
For the record I am putting in Appolo 65 optical detectors which will mean replacing the bases.
Location (mostly) are in middle of room.
I suppose it would be best to keep the HD's where they are next to the bathroom
What do you folk think is a reasonable charge (per SD) to change and commision (incl supple)
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Sorry..I should have mention I have about 50 to change
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Electrical work and fire alarm work are different skills. You might find someone who has fire alarm skills and is also a qualified electrician, but you cannot assume competancy to work on fire alarm systems on the basis of electrical qualifications. I am sure many of us on here could list numerous examples of systems worked on by electrical contractors with the wrong type of cable, or smoke detectors stuck half way up walls etc.
I'd get a few quotes from independent fire alarm companies. The larger ones can sometimes put out silly prices for odd jobs that they are not really too keen on winning.
Maybe if you tell us your location you might even get some FireNetters happy to give you a quote????
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I would have thought your maintenance company , who you are using should be able to complete the above quite easily and for a realistic price .
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I have no idea what a realistic price is !!!
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How come a qualified electrian cannot change an HD to SD.
For the record I am putting in Appolo 65 optical detectors which will mean replacing the bases.
Location (mostly) are in middle of room.
I suppose it would be best to keep the HD's where they are next to the bathroom
What do you folk think is a reasonable charge (per SD) to change and commision (incl supple)
Anyone can change a HD to a SD as long as they are competent to do so i.e. they have the correct tools, training, experience and knowledge.
It is unlikely that a general handyman would be competent.
It is possible an electrician could be competent.
It is almost definite that a specialist fire alarm engineer would be competent.
I would budget estimate that the cost per point to suppy, install and commission would be between £35.00 and £50.00 + vat per point (based on a quantitiy of approx. 50 No. Apollo Series 65 Optical and diode bases depending on location of your site and the difficulty of the job, and assuming your existing system is capable and fit to accept the new devices.
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How come a qualified electrian cannot change an HD to SD.
For the record I am putting in Appolo 65 optical detectors which will mean replacing the bases.
for a little extra i would recommend you consider using Apollo Orbis in which you will have the option to use mutisensors.
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Just by the by and out of general interest.... assuming these are bedrooms we are talking about, do you have an alarm sounder in each as well??
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Hi all
Yes..we have alarm sounders in each room. Would that be a problem ???
That would seem a reasonable price to me Wiz. ie around the £35.00 mark
and here I come to it.................
All you good folk giving me Jip because I defended some unknown hotel for charging £1600.00 due to a false alarm
Lets have some comments on...........
£95.00 per SD from a respected specialist fire alarm engineering company (not a national company)
So who's doing who here
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£95.00 per point sounds very excessive for the work as you have described it. Maybe the quotation includes for something that we are not aware of.
If not, you are probably being done! Don't accept the quotation and thank your lucky stars that you found out about Firenet where you can find out about these things!
I have no qualms in denigrating fire alarm companies who overcharge as much as I think taking £1600 from a customer's payment card because a smoke detector activated in a smoking room due to smoking is scandalous, probably fraudulent practice and reflects badly on any hotelier who agrees it is a reasonable action.
The general advice for obtaining quotations remains the same as always.
1) Ask friends for recommendations of companies to obtain quotations from.
2) Obtain quotations, based on your written specification detailing the work you require and what you are trying to achieve, from at least three companies.
3) choose the quotation from the company who best show an understanding of what you are expecting (not necessarily the cheapest!)
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You see my point though Wiz.
From my (the hoteliers) point of view its coming at us from all angles including those we thought we could trust.
I take your point on Firenet and appreciate the comments
I will get my SD's in (at the right price)...even if I didn't know I needed them
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Davidrh, you are a businessman. You should know better.
Extracts from the Businessman's Survival Guide:
Rule 7 - Trust no-one until they prove they are worthy of it!
Rule 8 - Never trust the Government or any it's representatives under any circumstances. Their prime concern is to squeeze as much money out of you to pay for their own existence. They would take everything if they could, but that would leave them with no-one generating any income. These people certainly don't know how to generate business income themselves. In fact they could hardly arrange a p**s up in a brewery!
I'll be contacting you directly tomorrow with an idea to help you with your smoke detectors.
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Hi all
Yes..we have alarm sounders in each room. Would that be a problem ???
That would seem a reasonable price to me Wiz. ie around the £35.00 mark
and here I come to it.................
All you good folk giving me Jip because I defended some unknown hotel for charging £1600.00 due to a false alarm
Lets have some comments on...........
£95.00 per SD from a respected specialist fire alarm engineering company (not a national company)
So who's doing who here
If you have asked the price to change one and one only then I would have to say that was nearly fair enough (travelling time + time on site + equipment).
However,if it is £95 per detector regardless how many they are doing then it is excessive.Taking into account that 3 detectors/bases per hour is comfortable (providing there are none at high access and that full access is available) then I'd say all 50 changed for around 2K (or less) would be a fair price.
Put me up fer a couple of nites with a bar tab and I'll see what I can do for you!!!!
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I am sure I could quote hotels who charge high rates per night. Their price is too high for me so I don't stay there. That is a fair comparison.
But imagine you agreed to pay £35 a detector and then because the contractor did something wrong, he then charged you an extra £1,000 per detector. Would that seem fair? Because that is a fair comparison of situations.
You have yet to tell us what the hotel customer who smoked in her smoking room did wrong.
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Your 95 per point does that allow disposal under the Weee directive ?
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Your 95 per point does that allow disposal under the Weee directive ?
I didn't think detectors came under WEE as yet?
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Buzz
I have been told over here now you cant even throw a heat in the bin , before ebay of course.
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Buzz
I have been told over here now you cant even throw a heat in the bin , before ebay of course.
.....oops!!!!!!!!
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Hi all
Yes..we have alarm sounders in each room. Would that be a problem ???
That would seem a reasonable price to me Wiz. ie around the £35.00 mark
and here I come to it.................
All you good folk giving me Jip because I defended some unknown hotel for charging £1600.00 due to a false alarm
Lets have some comments on...........
£95.00 per SD from a respected specialist fire alarm engineering company (not a national company)
So who's doing who here
Put me up fer a couple of nites with a bar tab and I'll see what I can do for you!!!!
That's going to be even more expensive than the £95 per head quote.
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Hi all
Yes..we have alarm sounders in each room. Would that be a problem ???
That would seem a reasonable price to me Wiz. ie around the £35.00 mark
and here I come to it.................
All you good folk giving me Jip because I defended some unknown hotel for charging £1600.00 due to a false alarm
Lets have some comments on...........
£95.00 per SD from a respected specialist fire alarm engineering company (not a national company)
So who's doing who here
Put me up fer a couple of nites with a bar tab and I'll see what I can do for you!!!!
That's going to be even more expensive than the £95 per head quote.
Two nights away from the wife and kids - feck,I'll pay for the heads myself!!!!!
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Your 95 per point does that allow disposal under the Weee directive ?
I didn't think detectors came under WEE as yet?
My price estimate to davidrh included redundant equipment disposal. Since the redundant equipment is HD, there is no disposal problem. Obviously ionisation smoke would have been a different kettle of radioactivity.
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Just a follow up to my "local difficulty"
You will remember that my local FB asked me to put strips and seals on all of my hotel bedroom fire door.....which I did not like at all
The bedrooms (40 odd) all had HD's fitted
The whole system worled fine and was inspected yearly
However, as I was against installing stips and seals the brigade asked me to change the bedroom HD's to SD's
As the whole hotel, including all bedrooms is NON SMOKING I reluctantly agreed and the work was done in January
You all know what I am going to say next
False alarms...not many but enough to cause inconvienence for all in the hotel ...caused by smokers in bedrooms. (and thats not to mention the old sock trick...what are people like ??)
We are doing our best and ask everyone to sign a registration document that confirms they will not smoke on penalty of a £150.00 "cleaning" fine
My problem now is making sure staff take alarms seriously...and as a matter of course we now do not automatically call the brigade
We had a system..it worked well....They fixed that
It was changed for changes sake !!!!!!!!!!!
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Everytime the alarm has activated, has it always been caused by smokers in the room?
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As far as we know...
They will deny smoking ....... bare faced lies
But then you find ash in the sink...and a lighter under the bed
I kid not
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There is always going to be an element of unwanted alarms caused by this in hotels, as standard smoke sensors are basically just doing there job.
Something on the back of the bedroom door saying about the sensors are very sensitive etc might be a good idea, and even on the desk adjacent the bed, just incase they dont look on the back of the bedroom door indicating this, may reduce this slightly.
Is a common problem across hotels, with smoking in potentially a confined space.
Bit of a tricky one, but there are always some people who wont risk the rain for a sneaky cigarette. But on the other hand it's weighing up the risk of a potential fire in the room and the loss of life against this.
You don't seem to have the problem of steam from the bathroom causing false alarms on the detector head, which can also be common, which shows good progress.
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However, as I was against installing stips and seals the brigade asked me to change the bedroom HD's to SD's
As the whole hotel, including all bedrooms is NON SMOKING I reluctantly agreed and the work was done in January
Why did you not challenge the FA?