FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Benzerari on September 21, 2008, 10:19:51 PM
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Guys;
I would like to know, which makes of analogue addressable systems, recognizing if a device is sitting on the loop and not yet configured, before the loop is scanned or auto-learned.
Does that sort of analogue addressable system, need to be of soft addressing type only?
Thank you
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Most panels will look for devices at unconfigured addresses. They won't necessarily do it on every 'scan' so as to save a bit of time (why look for something that shouldn't be there!) but it could scan all potential addresses every 5th scan or once an hour or whatever.
With Apollo protocol, devices can also end up being addressed 0 or addressed 127 (all bits on or all bits off) with are not really 'valid' addresses. So a further question is does a panel look for these 'never used' addresses as well, just in case a device has been accidently addressed to these? (n.b. Apollo has recently started using address 0 as a path to synchronise loop-powered sounders that have synchronisatioon facility)
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Most panels will look for devices at unconfigured addresses. They won't necessarily do it on every 'scan' so as to save a bit of time (why look for something that shouldn't be there!) but it could scan all potential addresses every 5th scan or once an hour or whatever.
With Apollo protocol, devices can also end up being addressed 0 or addressed 127 (all bits on or all bits off) with are not really 'valid' addresses. So a further question is does a panel look for these 'never used' addresses as well, just in case a device has been accidently addressed to these? (n.b. Apollo has recently started using address 0 as a path to synchronise loop-powered sounders that have synchronisatioon facility)
Thanks wiz but this is not my main concern, What I am asking is:
Which makes of analogue addressable systems, does see a device is sitting on the loop which is not yet configured, before the loop is scanned or auto-learned? And does that sort of analogue addressable system, need to be of soft addressing type only?
Most available systems wouldn't see any thing even, devices are sitting physically on the loop, but I am pretty sure some makes does and point out that a devices is on the loop and needs proper configuration and so on...etc :)
I am talking about BEFORE LOOP AUTOLEARN and NOT AFTER
Thank you
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I'm not sure if anyone here on Firenet would know how every panel operated.
It is my understanding that most panels will scan every possible address on power-up (and at other times as previously indicated) and indicate something like: EXTRA DEVICES DETECTED or UNCONFIGURED DEVICES DETECTED and even before anyone has carried out programming by autolearning or any other method.
There is a school of thought that considers that programming a system by only using the Autolearn function is not the best method on a new installation anyway. When you autolearn the panel it just accepts everything it finds, rather than what you expected. Many people believe you should write the programme, load it and then the panel will tell you how the installation differs from what you expected.
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I'm not sure if anyone here on Firenet would know how every panel operated.
Not necessary every, but the usually they dealt with !
It is my understanding that most panels will scan every possible address on power-up (and at other times as previously indicated) and indicate something like: EXTRA DEVICES DETECTED or UNCONFIGURED DEVICES DETECTED and even before anyone has carried out programming by autolearning or any other method.
Wiz;
I think, here you have to reverse your analogy, very few (and NOT most) systems works in this above described method, and that's the type I would like to know an example of makes, and if necessary has this some thing to do with soft addressing only type of systems.
Most panels try to scan themselves the loop as you discribed, (not through manual auto-learn or scan) but will not find any thing even devices are physically sitting on the loop, call it (Blind Patroling), the devices are just behaving as terminal blocks to insure continuity in the loop but NOT seen at all by the processor till manual autolearn is carried out, then the system start to see none-yet-Configured devices and start to talk to them requiring their output analogue values, type, address for confirmation...etc, these are the usual and mostly I have seen...etc
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Benz, One panel example that does is Ampac.
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Benz, One panel example that does is Ampac.
...Minerva..
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Kidde Vega does something similar I believe, you have to agree the logon count after a scan, on some sites where the maintenance team take out a detectr head for whatever reason and a logon count is carried out the detector is then removed from the count.
When the detector is put back it generates a fault and an error message (from memory it has been a while)
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As an aside to this (and before I forget!) - put a wrong polarity on a Morley and you get an earth fault on the -ve up.
This I know because I gave the wrong terminations for Apollo Xp95 as L1 Pos and L2 Neg,due to the fact I have had a run of non-addressable installs over the last month where this is the case!Had the sparkey all prepared to strip down his nice cabling until the penny dropped that none of the new devices had been autolearnt.
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Guys;
I would like to know, which makes of analogue addressable systems, recognizing if a device is sitting on the loop and not yet configured, before the loop is scanned or auto-learned.
Does that sort of analogue addressable system, need to be of soft addressing type only?
Thank you
we have already been through this before and i told you that an Aritech panel can do what you have mentioned.
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Patience is a virtue as well as an opera :-o
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don't have any Allen... an Opera--is that the chat show woman from America?
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Graeme, The only good thing about banging your head against a brick wall, is that it feels good when you stop! :)
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Graeme, The only good thing about banging your head against a brick wall, is that it feels good when you stop! :)
Yeah but bricks crumble....!!!
I think Kentec panels indicate if there is an unexpected device on the loop.....
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Graeme, The only good thing about banging your head against a brick wall, is that it feels good when you stop! :)
Yeah but bricks crumble....!!!
I think Kentec panels indicate if there is an unexpected device on the loop.....
They do but Im not sure if that only happens after you do an autolearn and it checks it with the config.
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Benz, One panel example that does is Ampac.
It seems you dealt with Ampac, does Ampac use soft addressing? I would like to know the link between soft addressing and system detecting devices, as soon as they are fitted on the loop, and before loop autolearn!
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Benz, One panel example that does is Ampac.
...Minerva..
The same question Buzz, does Minerva uses soft addressing, I would like to know the link between the soft addressing and detecting devices before loop autolearn!
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Kidde Vega does something similar I believe, you have to agree the logon count after a scan, on some sites where the maintenance team take out a detectr head for whatever reason and a logon count is carried out the detector is then removed from the count.
When the detector is put back it generates a fault and an error message (from memory it has been a while)
If it was not previously on the loop and fitted recently, does Kidde Vega detects a new device that has just been fitted and needs configuration?
Does Kidde Vega use soft addressing?
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Guys;
I would like to know, which makes of analogue addressable systems, recognizing if a device is sitting on the loop and not yet configured, before the loop is scanned or auto-learned.
Does that sort of analogue addressable system, need to be of soft addressing type only?
Thank you
we have already been through this before and i told you that an Aritech panel can do what you have mentioned.
When did you say that? Grame and in what thread?
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Graeme, The only good thing about banging your head against a brick wall, is that it feels good when you stop! :)
Yeah but bricks crumble....!!!
I think Kentec panels indicate if there is an unexpected device on the loop.....
Does Kentec uses soft addressing?
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On the VEGA you get a fault message "Device Unregistered" where a device has been added to the system without power down or autolearn.
And no,it doesn't use soft addressing.
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On the VEGA you get a fault message "Device Unregistered" where a device has been added to the system without power down or autolearn.
And no,it doesn't use soft addressing.
Very good answer Buzz, that's what I am looking for :)
Any technical info about their protocol would be grate
Cheers
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On the VEGA you get a fault message "Device Unregistered" where a device has been added to the system without power down or autolearn.
And no,it doesn't use soft addressing.
Very good answer Buzz, that's what I am looking for :)
Any technical info about their protocol would be grate
Cheers
Apollo or Hochiki
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Graeme, The only good thing about banging your head against a brick wall, is that it feels good when you stop! :)
Yeah but bricks crumble....!!!
I think Kentec panels indicate if there is an unexpected device on the loop.....
Does Kentec uses soft addressing?
No they dont....
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Benz, One panel example that does is Ampac.
...Minerva..
The same question Buzz, does Minerva uses soft addressing, I would like to know the link between the soft addressing and detecting devices before loop autolearn!
The Minerva panel doesn't use soft addressing either
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Thanks Guys, very good confirmation!
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Guys;
I would like to know, which makes of analogue addressable systems, recognizing if a device is sitting on the loop and not yet configured, before the loop is scanned or auto-learned.
Does that sort of analogue addressable system, need to be of soft addressing type only?
Thank you
we have already been through this before and i told you that an Aritech panel can do what you have mentioned.
When did you say that? Grame and in what thread?
can't rememeber where or when but i am 1000% you have asked before.