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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: alfi on October 13, 2008, 11:32:10 AM
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Has anyone any information on "staff handsets" in relation to fire alrm systems or procedures on how to use these in an office complex, need some information for study puposes and struggling to locate anything besides sales information
Appreciate any help guys
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do you mean like a paging system?
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Our Fire Alarm system sends a signal to our Dect phone system. The Dect phones have an LCD screen and are carried by key personnel. The script that appears on the phone is the same as appears on the fire panel itself.
It's worth noting that we treat this as a nice-to-have but don't rely on it soley to raise the alarm.
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Gents,
I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
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Gents,
I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
Based on your post quoted above I would assume the question is about a method of only alerting staff (at least initially) to a fire alarm condition. This might take many formats.
Based on the mention of 'staff handsets' in your original post I might guess the question is actually asking about a Fire Marshall Communications System using handset style fire telephones. If so, try www.c-tec.co.uk for more info on their SigTel system.
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Tony,
I think you will get a more detailed reply if you explain your question in more detail. Why do you need to know this, what is the application. My immediate reaction is that in an office the alarm goes off and everyone evacuates, the use of such a devise is not normal, so please explain so we can help better.
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Tony,
I think you will get a more detailed reply if you explain your question in more detail. Why do you need to know this, what is the application. My immediate reaction is that in an office the alarm goes off and everyone evacuates, the use of such a devise is not normal, so please explain so we can help better.
Correct, if what Grame stated is the case, I have seen EMS pager useful for walk test you can see on the pager what device you are triggering with its Ident., address, location text...etc
It can be used by security staff when patrolling the building too... etc
If is not the case then I haven’t got a clue!
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sorry gents,
this is a question for the FPA eurpoean diploma and it states"
Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building"
I've wrote about DDA for deaf people, and maybe for key staff such as fire wardens so they can possible investigate while in pre alarm, but can't find any more information.
thanks for the help guys
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sorry gents,
this is a question for the FPA eurpoean diploma and it states"
Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building"
I've wrote about DDA for deaf people, and maybe for key staff such as fire wardens so they can possible investigate while in pre alarm, but can't find any more information.
thanks for the help guys
You are I think, at the junction between; panic alarm, nurse alarm, fire alarm, burglar alarm, …what ever alarm…etc, but sorry this seems to be 4th dimension dilemma it needs a differential equation to guess certain solutions with less certainty… etc
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sorry gents,
this is a question for the FPA eurpoean diploma and it states"
Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building"
I've wrote about DDA for deaf people, and maybe for key staff such as fire wardens so they can possible investigate while in pre alarm, but can't find any more information.
thanks for the help guys
You are I think, at the junction between; panic alarm, nurse alarm, fire alarm, burglar alarm, …what ever alarm…etc, but sorry this seems to be 4th dimension dilemma it needs a differential equation to guess certain solutions with less certainty… etc
Tonyfog, then it is a staff alarm facilty you are talking about i.e. something that warns the staff of a fire condition before a general evacuation signal. In a building where everyone knows the different signals, the staff alarm might be a different alarm sound. In other circumstances it might be just a visual signal. Wireless signals may also/or instead be used to contact staff directly by radio/pager.
I don't know much else about staff alarms although my experience is that many fire officers are wary of the delay they add to the evacuation process and don't recommend them except in buildings with large numbers of the general public, where mass evacuation can be disrupting or needs to be carefully controlled.
p.s. pre-alarm is normally a function of analogue addressable systems only, where a signal is generated at a detection level just slightly lower than the detection level of a full fire condition. This pre-alarm may or may not be an indication of an impending full fire condition, but where it is, it normally follows just seconds after the pre-alarm.
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thanks for all the info chaps, appreciated, think I've got the idea now
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My responce to someone asking me that question would be "please explain exactly what you are asking".
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Christopher, I wrote that question for the diploma paper. I thought it was clear enough! What is the ambiguity? It was simply asking under what circumstances are staff alarms used in buildings. Contrary to what is suggested many f&RS actually adovocate a staff alarm nowadays by the way. However, there is a need for various safeguards to ensure that the arrangement does not increase risk unduly. (The intention was that diploma candidates read the standard, which has all the answers quite explicitly.)
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It seems to me that the term "staff alarm" could mean so many things that it is unclear. Is it a fire alarm, a disabled alarm, an intruder alarm, a gas release alarm.....
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UMMMMMMMMM no not really Christopher. Staff alarm is a defined term. See BS 5839-1
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.... Contrary to what is suggested many f&RS actually adovocate a staff alarm nowadays by the way.......
Interesting comment Mr T.. In my experience it is the customer who requests the staff alarm and after some negotiation the F&RS grudgingly agree to it!
Thereafter follows various rounds of negotiation as to how long a delay will be allowed before a full evacuation signal is initiated.
The final agreement normally involves the premises having to employ ex-olympic sprinters to assess the cause of the alarm condition before the delay expires! :)
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Gents,
I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
I can see lots of discussion about staff alarms but the answer to the original query is in Bs5839 Pt1 2002 section 19.2.2 page 40 as Colin says earlier, if you dont have a copy PM me and I will see how I can help.
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I know I've asked this before but I would still like it clarified.....
If the RP has done a risk assessment and concluded (in this case) a staff alarm is acceptable, on what grounds can the F&RS object??
Is it the case that if they say "No" the RP has to go to court to justify his decision if he feels that strongly... or does he wait for an enforcement notice and then go to court??
What is the procedure..??
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Gents,
I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
I can see lots of discussion about staff alarms but the answer to the original query is in Bs5839 Pt1 2002 section 19.2.2 page 40 as Colin says earlier, if you dont have a copy PM me and I will see how I can help.
GregC, I hope you are not considering making and distributing copies of a copyright document? :)
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I know I've asked this before but I would still like it clarified.....
If the RP has done a risk assessment and concluded (in this case) a staff alarm is acceptable, on what grounds can the F&RS object??
Is it the case that if they say "No" the RP has to go to court to justify his decision if he feels that strongly... or does he wait for an enforcement notice and then go to court??
What is the procedure..??
David,
As far as I understand the process, when the F&RS object to his precautions, if he is not prepared to modify them then the F&RS might issue an enforcement notice. In this case he gets the opportunity in court to convince the judge that his precautions are reasonable.
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.... Contrary to what is suggested many f&RS actually adovocate a staff alarm nowadays by the way.......
The final agreement normally involves the premises having to employ ex-olympic sprinters to assess the cause of the alarm condition before the delay expires! :)
I thought that there was a new ammendment in reference to search distances that those searching must be assessed to be competant at completing 60m in no more than 7 seconds?
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Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.
You still visiting Benedicts Colin?
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UMMMMMMMMM no not really Christopher. Staff alarm is a defined term. See BS 5839-1
OK. If the exam is specific to fire alarms or to BS 5839, then fair enough. But, like I said, if someone asked me that question without referring to fire alarms or BS 5839 then I would ask them to clarify what they are talking about.
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Gents,
I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
I can see lots of discussion about staff alarms but the answer to the original query is in Bs5839 Pt1 2002 section 19.2.2 page 40 as Colin says earlier, if you dont have a copy PM me and I will see how I can help.
GregC, I hope you are not considering making and distributing copies of a copyright document? :)
Of course not but my interpritation of said document isnt copyright infringement is it ?
(I remember a former employer once having a fellow engineer visit a library and copy the 1988 standards with chalk and a blackboard!!)
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GregC, I hope you are not considering making and distributing copies of a copyright document? :)
Of course not but my interpritation of said document isnt copyright infringement is it ?
Of course not. I really didn't think you would take the easy option, even if illegal !
(I remember a former employer once having a fellow engineer visit a library and copy the 1988 standards with chalk and a blackboard!!)
I don't know who/what you can be refering to. Anyway, what was wrong with the library's photocopier? ;)
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Anyway, what was wrong with the library's photocopier? ;)
He wouldnt pay 2p per page.............
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Staff alarms are becoming virtually normal practice in very large installations with significant numbers of smoke detectors. They may be entirely appropriate in some premises but not in others. Fire and rescue services love the use of staff alarms in relation to summoning of the FRS. One (happily recently retired) SFSO even threatened to use the powers of enforcment to require res care establishments in the county (ies) to investigate fire alarm signals at all times before summoning the FRS, including at night when there were few staff on duty. I did offer to go chat to the magistrates about it, as it would be an interesting diversion for them from fining unsuspecting motorists for speeding on the highway, but I still await the carrying out of the threat with bated breath.
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Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.
You still visiting Benedicts Colin?
Always!!! At my age, its the only place I can still have a dance with under 30s. We are throwing a large party next Sunday for the 25th anniversary of the practice, and will be having the Untouchables from NI to provide the entertainment.
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Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.
You still visiting Benedicts Colin?
Always!!! At my age, its the only place I can still have a dance with under 30s. We are throwing a large party next Sunday for the 25th anniversary of the practice, and will be having the Untouchables from NI to provide the entertainment.
Excellent - I'll buy you you're anniversary drink next time you're in Belfast.
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Staff alarms are becoming virtually normal practice in very large installations with significant numbers of smoke detectors. They may be entirely appropriate in some premises but not in others. Fire and rescue services love the use of staff alarms in relation to summoning of the FRS. One (happily recently retired) SFSO even threatened to use the powers of enforcment to require res care establishments in the county (ies) to investigate fire alarm signals at all times before summoning the FRS, including at night when there were few staff on duty. I did offer to go chat to the magistrates about it, as it would be an interesting diversion for them from fining unsuspecting motorists for speeding on the highway, but I still await the carrying out of the threat with bated breath.
One assumes the SFSO was trying to reduce the number of attendances to unwanted alarms. Many years ago a fire officer explained to me that he loved unwanted alarms because the Government's calculation of the need for number of appliances and men at any fire station was based on the number of times that station was 'called out' and not what type of incidents they were 'called out' for.
Therefore 'unwanted alarms' kept the call out level up and the Government couldn't reduce the staffing level of that fire station. He further explained that his attitude was shared by most full-time firemen, but not by retained firemen since they found unwanted alarms a waste of their time. Full time personnel found them an interesting diversion in an otherwise quiet shift!
I wonder if anyone can advise what the current thinking, at various levels of the F&RS', is regarding the 'benefits' to the FRS of attendance to unwanted alarms?
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Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.
You still visiting Benedicts Colin?
Always!!! At my age, its the only place I can still have a dance with under 30s. We are throwing a large party next Sunday for the 25th anniversary of the practice, and will be having the Untouchables from NI to provide the entertainment.
Excellent - I'll buy you you're anniversary drink next time you're in Belfast.
I still say Benedicts has the best beds I've ever slept in......!!
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Always!!! At my age, its the only place I can still have a dance with under 30s. We are throwing a large party next Sunday for the 25th anniversary of the practice, and will be having the Untouchables from NI to provide the entertainment.
Excellent - I'll buy you you're anniversary drink next time you're in Belfast.
I still say Benedicts has the best beds I've ever slept in......!!
You may get booking then!!
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I will be in Belfast on my birthday 6th november. Does that mean it will be a double drink? The princess has never been to NI and, as she has, with my assistance and copious amounts of alcohol, overcome her fear if flying, I am hoping to introduce her to the delights of Belfast, Alas, you could not afford her drinks bill!! The mortgage for her fear of flying drinks does not expire until I am 120.
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The mortgage for her fear of flying drinks does not expire until I am 120.
Not long to go then.
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Kurnal, This is true. I have done my 33 years, and am wondering about retiring on a good pension and, in a form of reverse osmosis, becoming a fire-fighter. Of course, now that any Tom, Dick or Harry can be a CFO, that will be the job I will want to start with. If I keep my nose clean, am nice to the elected members of the authority and keep in with these nice people at the CLG, I should end up in whatever the Inspectorate will have been replaced with by then, before I need to settle the mortgage on Princess' drinks bill. Please send all CFO application forms to the address on the website.
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Thats exactly how it seems to be working for many of the top brigade managers these days. Straight into the job as an ACO and maybe if we are lucky we may make a fire fighter of them by the time they retire.
Or maybe not.
I find it quite interesting to watch the news stories showing firefighters pouring water on the outside of buildings and very well educated senior managers explaining to the news teams that the building is lost and we are in the business of containment.
It brings back to me those words by Captain Eyre Massey Shaw
A fireman to be successful, must enter buildings; He must get in below, above, on every side, from opposite houses, over brick walls, over side walls, through panels of doors, through windows, through loopholes cut by himself in the gates, the walls, the roof; he must know how to reach the attic from the basement by ladders placed on half burned stairs, and the basement from the attic by rope made fast on a chimney;
His whole success depends on his getting in and remaining there, and he must always carry his appliances with him, as without them he is of no use.
James Braidwood was one of the most successful innovators in setting up brigades in Edinburgh then London- he was a qualified bulding surveyor before making fire his career. The trouble of todays top tier entry is that whilst it may bring in managers well skilled in all the essentials such as elf and safety, diversity, media relations, corporate affairs they may have little understanding of what needs to be done at the sharp end.
Hey sorry Chris - gone way off topic again.
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Colin
The royalties from your new book on BS 5839 part 1 should cover my drinks bill.
Princess
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Kurnal, there's nothing like a good dynamic risk assessment to keep them all outside, far too dangerous to go in and do the job properly. Lots of water towers and jets to ensure that the basement gets flooded and they can keep those high volume pumps in work. Whats the point in providing internal access and shafts if they do not get used, might as well make disposable buildings.
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James Braidwood was one of the most successful innovators in setting up brigades in Edinburgh then London- he was a qualified bulding surveyor before making fire his career. The trouble of todays top tier entry is that whilst it may bring in managers well skilled in all the essentials such as elf and safety, diversity, media relations, corporate affairs they may have little understanding of what needs to be done at the sharp end.
Prof., there a great story by Littlejohn in the Daily Mail today about how well the Fire Service's resources are being used, and how it took two firmen to make a two-step stepladder safe enough for their third colleague to use in testing a smoke detector, and even then they said they were breaking all 'elf and safety rules in doing so. You couldn't make it up!
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Working at helghts regs menas that you have to keep 3 points of contact at all times. Can you do that when installing a smoke alarm?
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We employ a clever engineer for that called Dick
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Kurnal,
a life sized statue of James Braidwood has just been unveiled in Parliament Square, Edinburgh, opposite the City Chambers in the High Street. The statue is just around the corner from his first Fire Station (which nowadays is a museum for the Police). I suppose this really compliments the Tooley Street plaque in London which comemorates his death. Which gets us back to elf & safety mate!
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We employ a clever engineer for that called Dick
And I guess that using Dick provides one of the three points of contact!
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What you mean like tying yourself on?
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Colin
The royalties from your new book on BS 5839 part 1 should cover my drinks bill.
Princess
Princess, You are not allowed to plug my new book on BS 5839-1, available now from all good bookshops and a must for everyone in the fire safety profession, on these bulletin boards, as to do so would be advertising and Christopher would not be pleased, even if it is for a good cause such as your drinks bill.
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[
It brings back to me those words by Captain Eyre Massey Shaw
What hostelry were you and the Captain in when he said this to you.]
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Kurnal,
a life sized statue of James Braidwood has just been unveiled in Parliament Square, Edinburgh, opposite the City Chambers in the High Street. The statue is just around the corner from his first Fire Station (which nowadays is a museum for the Police). I suppose this really compliments the Tooley Street plaque in London which comemorates his death. Which gets us back to elf & safety mate!
More significantly, almost opposite the statue and up a bit is a wee shop that sells delicious whisky cake. I have just devoured one I bought there.
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If I recall we were but young sproggies attending as delegates on one of your courses. He kept copying my notes as I was trying to write down your formula for calculating the required quantity of the phosphorus content in a lucifer for standby purposes.
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I remember. You were the chap that I said should get a proper job. It took you 30 years to listen.
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It took me 30 seconds to listen and 30 years to start drawing my pension. Nice to have a bit of a buffer zone especially on the waistline. I notice that your buffer zone is looking a little diminished these days. Hard times or burning the candle at both ends?
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Loss of weight for the purpose of health enancement, probably assisted by worry that fire safety legislation and its enforcement by enforcing authorities has reached a new low in standards.