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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mushy on October 20, 2008, 01:37:12 PM
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Question for assessors...
If you were asked to carry out a FRA during a building renovation stage, could you do it?...or have the people got to be up and running before you could properly carry out the assessment?
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An FRA is required so somebody will have to do it.
It will need to be updated when the work is completed.
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Thanks for the reply Wee Brian
can you just clarify mate, a FRA has to be done even though the building is not yet occupied and work is being carried out?
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Yes building sites are covered by the Fire Safety Order. During the building phase relevant persons could be affected by fire- builders, members of the public etc
A fire risk assessment is required under the Fire Safety Order for the construction phase.
Who enforces this - it could be Fire Authority if there there are several organisations sharing a site or HSE if a site occupied only by the builder.
There are also fire safety provisions within the CDM Regs that may also apply depending on the size/ value/ duration of the project. Again these may be enforced by either one of the agencies depending on the circumstances as explained above.
PS theres an ACOP to the CDM Regs so these prescriptive requirements will have to be considered alongsidde the fire risk assessment
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Thanks Kurnal is an ACOP a code of practice?
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An ACoP is an Approved Code of Practice and it has a quasi legislative imperative in that where an ACoP exists you have to be able to prove you either follwed the ACoP or put into place alterantive risk reduction and risk management provisions which taken together provide an equal standard of protection as if you had followed the ACoP. you will find this statement inside any ACoP in the Introduction.
Code of Practice does not have this legal statement within them but they do have a habit of being refrerred to and quoted when a point needs proven.
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An ACoP is an Approved Code of Practice and it has a quasi legislative imperative in that where an ACoP exists you have to be able to prove you either follwed the ACoP or put into place alterantive risk reduction and risk management provisions which taken together provide an equal standard of protection as if you had followed the ACoP. you will find this statement inside any ACoP in the Introduction.
Code of Practice does not have this legal statement within them but they do have a habit of being refrerred to and quoted when a point needs proven.
Is there such thing as a list of UK ACsOP?
What actually makes a COP subject to approval? How is it approved? Who approves it?
How do Jacobs get the figs into fig rolls?
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I can answer a bit of this for you NT,
ACOP's are approved by the HSC with the consent of the S of S, and provide a recognised interpretation of how an employer may comply with the associated legislation. Its not legislation and has no binding force, however it can be cited as evidence and a person who breaks it is likely to be held negligent.
The HSE will at times issue guidance notes, which are purely advisory but generally more practical than that contained in an ACOP.
As for the Jacobs one, I think thats a closely guarded family secret
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I can answer a bit of this for you NT,
ACOP's are approved by the HSC with the consent of the S of S, and provide a recognised interpretation of how an employer may comply with the associated legislation. Its not legislation and has no binding force, however it can be cited as evidence and a person who breaks it is likely to be held negligent.
The HSE will at times issue guidance notes, which are purely advisory but generally more practical than that contained in an ACOP.
As for the Jacobs one, I think thats a closely guarded family secret
Awe shucks. The mystery surrounding the fig roll continues. That was the important question.
Thanks R. Is there a list?
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Take a look at this, and see if its any use, cant seem to find one for our shores yet
http://www.hseni.gov.uk/index/information_and_guidance.htm
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So when you do your FRA for a building that is being renovated/refurbished, you do it for the situation as it is then and then do another one when its complete and occupied?
I take it the same criteria is involve in the first FRA...ie means of escape, some type of emergency lighting, fire warning, ffe, evacuation, assembly point, Pat test etc etc
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The FRA during construction phase can be totally different. And of course it can vary during the course of construction. Thats why the interaction with the CDM Regs is critical and the role of the principal contractor so important.
During construction phase theres often less life risk, sometimes less fire loading sometimes more, theres always missing fire resisting construction, different means of escape, temporary alarms and lighting, different emergency plan.
It looks like a licence to print money for the risk assessor. However risk assessments during construction phase are almost unknown. Because most fire brigades are unaware of their duty to enforce the CDM Regs on some sites, and the HSE arent interested in meeting their duties to enforce the Fire Safety Order on construction sites.
The HSE stick to the CDM Regs- in which a fire risk assessment is not even on the agenda- and the Fire Service wrongly think its someone elses job.
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Kurnal, I think you will find that the HSE are the enforcers of the RR(FS)O onnew construction sites whilst the FRS enforce for construction in existing buildings.
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Thanks for your answers fellas...continuing on a bit...lets say its a hotel being completely refurbished or even extended
If you are asked to do a FRA during the refurb/construction stage, would you recommend say fire alarm system, E/L etc at that stage to save them having to do it all again when it is up and running and after the second FRA?
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As others have said before, they would have to comply with the CDM regs which covers methods odf detection and warning. It would depend of course whether the existing building is still occupied or a completely empty site.
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Kurnal, I think you will find that the HSE are the enforcers of the RR(FS)O onnew construction sites whilst the FRS enforce for construction in existing buildings.
Yes thanks Jokar my last posting was rather garbled, If anyone wants I will dig out the actual definitions of who enforces what and when from the Fire Safety Order and for the ACOP to the CDM Regs.
As I say in practice the HSE know nothing about the Fire Safety Order and they just enforce the prescriptive fire related regulations of the CDM Regs, and the Fire Service tend not to be aware of their duties to enforce the fire related regualtions of the CDM Regs in addition to the Fire Safety Order on some sites.
Why is it important - In particular its important to make sense of the definitions of Responsible person / Principal Contractor, and whose collar to feel.
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Thanks for your answers fellas...continuing on a bit...lets say its a hotel being completely refurbished or even extended
If you are asked to do a FRA during the refurb/construction stage, would you recommend say fire alarm system, E/L etc at that stage to save them having to do it all again when it is up and running and after the second FRA?
Depends who the relevant persons are. Building sites usually are provided with temporary means of escape taking into account the lack of fire compartments inherent in buildings under construction, temporary self contained manual fire alarms, emergency lighting and fire fighting equipment.
If there are other relevant persons at risk, then it gets much more complicated and such basic temproary arrangements will not suffice.
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Thanks Kurnal...
I can understand that you would advise all the temporary stuff during construction...I was just wondering while you were doing this first FRA if you would recommend all the requirements for a permanent fire safety solution while you were at it...to save the occupier having to do it once it is up and running after the second FRA...or is that the job of building control
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With a refurb/extension you would also need to see any building control plans to see what has been included in the application which could include fire alarm, E/L etc. You should not then need a second bite of the cherry when work has finished.
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Thanks The Colonel
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Mushy,
I comment on the situation as it is applied in Scotland, (and make the presumption that similar arrangements apply in E&W). Applying fire safety provisions in compliance with the Building Standards usually follows the Technical Handbook explaining how to achieve the needed compliance. In the Introduction to the Technical Handbook, Part 2 Fire Safety is the caution " Persons with obligations under the Act (the Fire (Scotland) Act)require to carry out a fire safety risk assessment which may require additional fire safety precautions to reduce the risk to life in case of fire. For example, measures to reduce the risk and spread of fire, means of escape, fire-fighting equipment, fire detection and warning, instruction and training. Other measures are prescribed by regulation. The risk assessment should be kept under review."
Once the building or refurb is completed, the building may comply with Building Control approval (by whatever approval route is applied) but the FR Assessor may actually find the situation after occupancy requires some additional fire safety provisions. (the difference between the 'paper design' and the reality of a working environment).
As our colleagues have stated earlier, some fire safety elements rightly derive from the BC approval such as fire alarm systems and emergency lighting etc., and normally by following guidance from elsewhere, such as ACoP's, CoP's or British Standards these systems will be right, even after occupancy.
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Thanks afterburner