FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: TFEM on December 19, 2008, 09:15:24 AM
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Thought you may like to know that we've just picked up a new customer. It was not hard to convince him that he wasn't getting the best service from his existing supplier! See attached photo! :o
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Blimey, haven't seen one of those green cans for a while. WOuld be interesting to know what application this was being used for etc?
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Went in for a bacon sandwich off Regents Street in London last week , and one of these old girls was still hanging on the wall , I hope he is more updated with his food regs than his can.
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Went in for a bacon sandwich off Regents Street in London last week , and one of these old girls was still hanging on the wall , I hope he is more updated with his food regs than his can.
Heard about your liking for old girls. Dissapointed not to see a photo though.
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Its the non Gary Glitter Effect
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Good 2 see they have had such regular and prompt service on this can LOL ::)
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Its the non Gary Glitter Effect
Let's try and keep this thread on topic, or at least away from that one. Thanks.
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Month late in 2007,do you think this guy keeps up to date.
Dont mension any names but give a few details about the old company.
Does he claim service to BS5306 etc
His it a memberof any bodys
etc etc.
Not trying to crusify anyone just interested in what sort of company services green cans
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Just out of interest as extinguishers isn't my fortay.... what sort of tests would need to be conducted on this Halon extinguisher for it to be deemed as 'been serviced'?
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Firstly the possession or servicing of a Halon extinguisher other than on the 'Excepted Uses' list is a criminal offence under the The Environmental Protection (Controls on Ozone-Depleting Substances) Regulations 2002.
To correctly service the extinguisher (if you were legally permitted to) would involve first ensuring a safety pin was securely in place (safety). You would see if 10 years or more had elapsed since the last Extended service (if so the unit would be withdrawn and sent to a recovery station for halon recovery and then recharged). If within 10 years an external visual inspection for dents, cracks and gouges in the cylinder & any similar damage to the head cap/valve. If no significant damage you would see if the weight of the cylinder was that marked on the previous service as the full weight (to a tolerance of 10% of the extinguishing mass, so a 1.5kg extinguisher has a 150g margin of error before requiring a recharge). The pressure gauge would be checked visually and then with a testing tool (to ensure that it is telling the truth and is not stuck) and a test dot sticker applied. The safety pin would be pulled to check for free movement and then refitted with a new seal. You would ensure any operating labels were still legible and if all is well fill in the service label for a Basic Service.
The only halon that should be in use is on an airplane or helicopter, police or military use, and fire service use for the initial extinguishment of persons on fire. In practice the military have stopped using halon in portables anyway (may still be in some systems), The police only use it mainly for equipping riot officers in disorder where petrol bombs may be being used, the fire service don't seem to use it at all and the air industry remains the biggest user (for numbers of extinguishers) although the police probably consume the largest amount of halon as they still use it in training whereas the air industry don't using water filled units on an LPG rig.
Several one/two man bands still 'service' according to 1970's standards, I've mentioned Town & Country Before and there are several others.
Digressing a little I've noted several major companies are slimming down the parts they use as they don't seem to keep 55g cartridges on the vans any more - time and time again I see 'due ES - no carts on van' on service labels. Also very few people use the frangible Chubb & Ceo-Deux safety pins properly any more, reusing broken ones and tagging intact ones.
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Resuing 'broken' Chubb pins makes perfect sense. The cost compared to using it again with a seal, not to mention the environmental impact, seems entirley sensible.
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The problem with not using the correct pins & ok indicator is that it is not being serviced with accordance with the manufactures instructions.
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Yes and so? Using the correct pin, but without their indicator?
Do you, religously, use the car polish, oil, screenwash, car wash etc that the manufacturer recommends?
As long as the pin fits, there is a tamperproof seal and the extinguisher is serviced correctly then there is no problem.
What about a pin and indicator not of Chubb manaufacture, but identical in operation, there are plenty of replacement makes available, or maybe just reuse the pin and use a tamperproof seal instead - oh a circle argument
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It also invalidates the extinguisher's BSEN approval as the combination results in the need to use too much force to break.
If you are purely bothered about cutting costs the Ceo-Deux frangible pin is replaceable by a steel pin and ring type safety pin that fits exactly & one national company demanded this of their maintenance company for all the extinguishers across their UK premises after a nasty incident where someone rotated the frangible pin whilst pulling and the pin body stuck (the hole in the head and the original pins were D shaped, not round) & the plastic ring bit snapped off. The body of the pin was stuck and until someone found some pliers to extract it the extinguisher couldn't be discharged. Problem was this wasn't at a training session, but a real fire!
I'll admit the reuse of broken pins is low down on the scale of slack practices (unless you charge the customer the price of a new frangible pin!) and companies like that in the original post are the real problem
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The snapping off of the D ring pins is a real issue with this type of pin i.e. the pull ring area (D) of the actual pin snapping rather than the snap off part of the pin allowing the release of the pin. Anthony is quite correct in his summary regarding this being of low importance for a client until of course you point it out and the subsequent problems caused from a snapped plastic pin stuck in the operating handle of an extinguisher. It them becomes an issue.
As for adding a plastic snap off seal to a plastic D ring type pin, this too leads to similar problems and should be avioded. Especially if a D ring has not been pulled (poor servicing) and this safety feature then has the original D ring with the circular part holding it in coupled with a metal pin plastic seal. Trying to release a D ring pin with two seals fitted is bloody difficult rendering the operation of an extinguisher impossible and only leaves a fire situation with a potential fire fighter (staff member for example) struggling to release a pin and putting themselves at further risk.
In my opinion these D ring type pins are a safety risk and a sales con for unscrupulous engingeers, who deems a unit unfit for use and replaces it with a new unit at uneccessary cost to the client.
Unfortunately my humble opinion doesn't travel to the upper echelons of the manufacturers who are only interested in unit sales not safety. >:(
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As long as the pin fits, there is a tamperproof seal and the extinguisher is serviced correctly then there is no problem.
My opinion is that this is not good practise. A plastic pin should never be used with a tamper tag. As mentioned before if the pull part of the pin breaks then you are left with an extinguisher which cannot be used when required. You may have liability insurance but are the consequences and the in depth questioning from your insurance company, health and safety, your customer really, really worth the saving in cost from not replacing the pin and indicator?
I wouldn't stick my neck on the line for £2.
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That's the point though isn't it? Saving money. How many firms' sales reps are out there are winning contracts on a desparation £3.50 fee per unit basis, parts included? As you know there are a hell of a lot but you just try telling the client what a **** service they are getting just to find the're not interested in petty things like extingishers. (arguably the most visable fire protection/ H&S example in view in ANY company's premises) Then try to tell the same client that to get a decent service he's gonna have to pay for it.
With that sort of all in contract they (the "service" co.) ar'nt going to replace a D ring plastic pin that has cost them £2 or even carry out the basics for the unit by removing the pin in the first place. We can waffle on forever but the cowboys, large and small will still carry on. Looks like wer'e back to the company policing/ regulator thread again with all those arguments... :-\ ;D
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You would not believe me if I told you which company I have seen for an all inclusive price of £2.25 per extinguisher, How can small companies compete against this sort of below cost servicing.
Its one of the big ones.
And they will use genuine chubb pins, hint hint!!.
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I know what you mean - the Govt contract prices for servicing, supply, etc from the firm with the hot air balloon are amazingly low and barely above the trade only price.
With the credit crunch, standards risk slipping in order to cut costs and survive - if you are too dear then the work goes elsewhere from larger customers or they don't have it done at all if they are small customers
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Yes but the Govt prices are probably subsidised very heavily by their smaller customers. I can often save my clients more than the cost of my risk assessment fee jus by looking at their invoices for extinguisher maintenance and finding some more realistic quotes. One small shop was paying £48 per extinguisher per year hire fee.
I was in a local chemist who subscribe under the government scheme - interesting to note that their old black CO2 has just been serviced and is in its 12th year since hydraulic test.
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Their prices for government or local authority work is below cost if you take in consideration wages fuel etc. I complained a few years ago to the mergers and monopolies commission that they were carrying out work at below cost, they said although they could see they were possibly losing money on the extinguishers it would be hard to prove they were using their monopoly unfairly as they may be making money on another side of the contract.
Has anyone tried to complain about them to Feta (now FIA) ?.
A few years ago I took a massive hotel off them and their local engineer went in to see the owner and was slagging my company off saying that our engineers were not qualified (and Chris before you remove this post I have documented evedence of all this). I had to go and see the Owner and take our certification etc with me. The best bit was that up till then I had always sent my engineers on a FETA course by using aRep I still new from when I was their 10 years ago, So all my paperwork for engineers feta courses had their company name on it.
So when the hotel owner saw this he just went mad calling the engineer who had slagged us off.
So after this I complained to FETA that one of their members was slandering my company and told them the full story. The lady said she would look into it and get someone to call me back. Eventually after several more phone calls over the next month Peter Bollands phoned me to deal with the complaint, I asked Peter why he was dealing with this as he was the BAFE man?, he said we all work in the same office so they asked him to deal with it. (Hang on I thought, arnt Feta and BAFE supposed to be seperate bodies). Any how after more badgering I finally got threatening letters from the said company saing that if I wanted to take this accusation further I would have to deal with there solicitors. And we all know they have more money than a small company, in civil courts.
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Take them to the cleaners. You have the documented proof and the hotel owner (independent witness), you can be sure there are plenty of firms who will specialise in this sort of case and freely advise you which correct action to take. My bet is "they" will want to settle quietly, which may go toward the staff Christmas do ;D
On another note: The low all in prices are often thrown in by firms to get the service co. in the door. The large balloon lot who pay my wages probably do it to get contracts in all services - mechanical/electrical/security often as a loss leader. I'm convinced the specific part of the department (Ansul servicing) I work in doesn't make a penny, quite the opposite probably! But the hierachy must obviously look at the bigger picture, all the clients are large nationals and of the "all in" type so following the all disipline service and new installs on an annual basis there will be a viable profit margin.
There is plenty room for the smaller co.s out there but where the big boys walk in with these crazy loss leaders (Iv'e spent many years servicing exts and trying to fight these prices) everyone loses out. The smaller guys have to beat these prices and inevitably service quality diminishes.
My philosophy was always pretty simple: You get what you pay for. Sometimes worked, sometimes not, but I don't believe in dropping standards to win or keep a contract.
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To be honest what angers me more isn't always the cheap cowboys (a la 'get what you pay for') but the ones who charge extortionate prices and use underhand practice to gain work ,sell equipment not required & scrap good kit, preying on the good faith of those willing to do right by their fire safety responsibilities.
I'm advising a tenant run management company for a small flat block who have just been triple stung by the famous Elland firm with (1) Scrapping perfectly servicable kit (2) Charging £250 for each replacement (3) Using their infamous carbonated service report with the different second copy so the customer actually signs for new equipment when on his copy he thinks he's only signed for the service visit.
When Joseph Blakeborough & Sons put a Cobra snake on their extinguishers in the 1910's, 20's & early 30's they obviously knew what the future foretold.....
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Just to show that it isn't restricted to extinguishers,I've given up trying to get local council maintenance contracts on fire alarm systems.
The company currently doing it are charging the client half of our cost price.The first year they replaced bells for electronic sounders on a very adequate system because "they weren't loud enough"!This was followed up by replacing a control panel installed just over a year because the key had went missing (never heard of RS or Maplins obviously for new keyswitches).This list has continued up to now where they have changed two bells in the reception area of a leisure facility for sounders,while the rest of this substantial complex is still bells.
I have tried pricing the contract as tight as possible (to the point that I would have to wear trainers to get round the sites!) but to no avail.I have seen fire escape routes compatmentised with the detectors either side but still the service company signs it off - and there's the problem.If these "professional" independant companies are prpared not to rock the boat then the client seems happy enough to accept their signatures on the report sheet.
Makes me flamin' seeth that it's my rates that are paying for this!!
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Yes Buzz local councils are so prone to this sort of thing.We are appointed fire safety consultants to one particular district council, done all their fire risk assessments and commented on exactly what needs to be upgraded and how, and then they bring in contractors who over our heads who ignore the findings of the risk assessment, rip oit prefectly adequate systems and put in an L1 everywhere from small offices to blocks of flats.
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We pay £3.62 for services, new between £28-41.
No discharge fee as they are replaced due to it being cheaper.
This from a National Company
What environmental crisis? :'( :'( :'(
davo
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Thanks Davo thats a good illustration to use. I bet you are charged for spares, seals,gauge stickers etc.
Many BAFE companies will give you a fully inclusive service for what is not a huge amount more than you are paying now, and include in the fee an element to cover the recharge at the required interval.
Take your current fee, say its replaced at 5 years by a new one at £30 - thats £6 per year plus the service fee- plus spares- probably costing you £11.50 per unit per year. You could get an all inclusive service for much less than that - but most customers only look at the headline figure.
And of course theres environmental considerations as well if you start to look at the carbon footprint of buying new.
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Of course several firms can afford an 'all in price' as when the expensive Extended service comes along they just fill in the label. I caught P****c doing this on several sites.
They can do this as they are often left to their own devices and with stored pressure extinguishers is far harder to prove they've done a shine and sign - in past years I've caught out people by the details on the cartridge and the state of the contents (e.g. stale 'living' water!)
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Prof
All parts are free, except head cap and hose charged, also environmental disposal two quid. ::)
However, see AB's comments on plastic on another thread
davo
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Absolutely Davo. And I agree with Anthony B as well on the shine and sign. I should have added that these all inclusive prices can work well as part of a maintenance package agreed at the time the extinguishers are first sold, be cautious about anyone who offers it after the initial sale unless they are very diligent in checking all test dates of your kit before giving their price.
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Agreed Kurnal but you know what happens once you've submitted your well intentioned report, you stick to the Standards and it is too costly for the client.
Due the now more and more common practice of companies bringing in "Facilities Management" firms to run their maintenance schedules for a limited budget (i.e. cheapest tender price) and a short term contract, a new circle of poor practice is becoming more aparant.
They have their own contacts for various disciplines and bring in their own fire servicing company. Usually a cheap and chearful wipe and sign service, so any previous good practice and expertise once enjoyed by the client is thrown out of the window, leaving the client distrustful of the fire protection industry as a whole.
Then following the contract completion another cheaper tender is made by a rival Facilities company and an even worse quality of servicing begins the rounds, ultimately leaving the client with cheap quality products and servicing.
We all have had experience of walking into a new build and being appalled by the quality and standards of protection hanging on the walls - I walked into a soon to be opened hotel today which is part of a National chain and could'nt believe what was sat there, but thats budgets for you. :-\
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Go on gives us a clue as to which kit!
FM companies service departments are notorious.
The one that is named the same as a travel agent can be particularly bad:
- missed terminal dents in extinguishers
- carry few spares and thus can't ES any cartridge extinguishers
- In one building in 2007 they sold the customer six 9 litre foam extinguishers as brand new (at a brand new price).
Being a bit of an extinguisher anorak I immediately identified them as MoD/NATO contract extinguishers by Chubb - 9 litre stored pressure foam branchpipe extinguishers with a 1" colour band around the shell instead of a 10% panel, red levers with standard steel pin in place of the plastic OK (still a version of Chubb premier head, not a TG one) & of course a NATO stock number. Made in 2000 and as with all Government kit released to surplus after a few years, so no doubt bought on the cheap as a pellet load by said FM company.
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AnthonyB
I trust Mssrs Sue, Grabbit and Runn are on the case ???
(or even Plod?)
davo
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:D Many moons ago I witnessed 200 brand new units installed a new build hospital having to be ripped out and sent back to the supplier as they were found full of rust and gauges corroded. The reason? Salt water washing into the container on board the ship transporting the "British" manufactured product from the Far East to the suppliers own "manufacturing plant" in er..well up North shall we say? The supplier was too arrogant to bother taking the kit out of the mashed cardoard boxes before delivering them. ::)
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HALON-BCF-FIRE-EXTINGUISHERS_W0QQitemZ130283730335QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Fire_Extinguishers?hash=item130283730335&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
Must be ok as they've been serviced ? ::)
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Goodsparks,
OMG!!.
I like the way he says they are a couple of years old!!! do you think he ment to say decades.
Dilema?
Should we not report this to ebay?
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Already informed the vendor. It will be interesting to see what happens!
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Made in 1978 - if only a couple of years old it must be a 'Life on Mars' moment.
They are in good nick for their age and I'd bet would perform fully, FFE primary sealed Halons are particularly robust and are still made today for the air industry.
The mystery service person if they actually exist had the good sense not to put a service label on identifying themselves, in fact they look like they were never serviced post purchase.
Rare to find 2.5kg's like those, I normally find elusive 1.5kg & 3lb sizes around. I do think these will still crop up for years, I still find 3lb Nu Swift Uni Flash liquid (Tippex thinners & CBM!) extinguishers from time to time.
The problem with the Ozone Depleting Substances regs is of course that no one enforces them - you'd have to be shifting bulk supplies or trying to import/export before you hit anyone's radar - in fact who does enforce it - the regs don't state whether it's HSE, DTI or the EA.
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Rare to find 2.5kg's like those, I normally find elusive 1.5kg & 3lb sizes around. I do think these will still crop up for years, I still find 3lb Nu Swift Uni Flash liquid (Tippex thinners & CBM!) extinguishers from time to time.
I've got a couple of Angus 2.5kgs in the garage that look pretty much the same, no gauge in the base though.
Out of interest, does BCF break down the headcap seals if left in contact for a prolonged period (extinguisher laying sideways), got a few units "waiting for disposal ;) ) and the 2.5 TG that was layed down has dropped pressure and is stains around the neck ?
Paul
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I've had and found leakers like that - BCF does appear to have a tendency to perish the 'O' rings over time, bear in mind it's one of a family of compounds used as solvents & degreasers. I've also seen it degrade the aluminium neck and oxidise it and split it causing a slow leak too.
The Angus version was their own clone of the FFE extinguishers, notable by a slightly different pistol grip head and a symbol that looked like an original series Star Trek Starfleet badge or the spaceship off the arcade game 'Asteroids' on a sticker attached to the head on 80's models.
Like the FFE models you could have gauged or gauge less variants. I still have the 1.5kg model given to me by Angus along with all sorts of other stuff on a factory visit I had in my teens at their place in Morcambe
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:o
Has anyone read the Questions and Answers? Have a look and ponder how "totally discharged in 2006" etc can be discribed as "only a couple of years old" or of course, how his mate managed to carry out this total discharge and recharge legally and manage to get hold of halon in 2006 or the correct pressure valve adapter? Are they ex special use units? Is the original owner aware of this disposal of their old units? Where did they get the safety seals from? Do Ebay allow stupidity as part of a sellers criteria? hmm...questions, questions... ::)
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It's quite obvious the sellers replies are total junk. A one or two man band that's been around a long time might still have the bits and pieces to recharge defunct stuff, although it's unlikely they ever went to the expense of having the stuff to refill FFE kit themselves.
It's just a couple of old extinguishers that have been lying around for decades in someone's workshop/garage/stores and someone's found them and decided to flog them to the ignorant eBay public.
There are loads of old extinguishers including halons lying around in workplaces - I find several each year on my travels.
Some of the junk sold on eBay (new and used) is scandalous, but we will have to live with it, just as some junk is still being serviced by the cowboys who don't know any better.
The last 'special user' stuff that filtered officially onto the market was MoD Graviner Swordsman & Pyrene/Chubb E-BCF units well over10 years ago - all are now gone and those still in circulation were released to surplus a long time ago.
You still see the odd nicked off a train yellow Firesnow BCF and a fair amount of ex motor sport stuff that is lapped up by the less regulated end of the motorsports field as any officially scrutineered variant has moved onto AFFF or Clean Agent. (if you want to make stupid mark up on 1 & 2 litre AFFF extinguishers sell them as motorsport models as they charge a silly price for their handhelds that aren't part of a plumbed system)
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You still see the odd nicked off a train yellow Firesnow BCF and a fair amount of ex motor sport stuff that is lapped up by the less regulated end of the motorsports field as any officially scrutineered variant has moved onto AFFF or Clean Agent. (if you want to make stupid mark up on 1 & 2 litre AFFF extinguishers sell them as motorsport models as they charge a silly price for their handhelds that aren't part of a plumbed system)
Now that brings back a few memories of recharging a couple of large BCF's for a guy's dragster. Unfortunatlely we lost his business when the daft bugger's death trap blew up at a meeting. He got out in one piece, but his missus decided that was one close call too many.