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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Alan Keith on December 23, 2008, 12:51:20 PM
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Users of this forum involved in previous discussions regarding B&Bs and FRS audits in Scotland may be interested to learn that after pressure from MSPs and representatives of the tourism industry, the Scottish Fire & Rescue Advisory Unit has now withdrawn existing guidance information for small B&Bs (those operating from a private home) pending revision of the guidance after consultation with the tourism industry. It has also been recommended that fire and rescue services reschedule their routine audit and enforcement activity in this sector until such time as the revised guidance is available.
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We sassenachs have the benefit of new guidance notes for the operators of the smaller B&B. Presumably this is the nature of guidance that you eagerly await. I suppose as usual the Scots will iron out the bugs before publication.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/payingguests.pdf
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There version will have some better info on FFE no doubt.
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Kurnal benefit of the guidance is questionable.
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Can I ask what exactly has been withdrawn with regards to existing guidance information for small B & B's in Scotland? is it the sleeping accommodation guide for small premises? if not then what?
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Ricardo. The text of the letter being sent to Chief Officers throughout Scotland is as follows:-
"You will be aware that concerns have been raised with Ministers about the enforcement of
fire safety for small bed and breakfast accommodation providers. The concerns raised
suggest that the guidance on which compliance and enforcement is based may be resulting
in expensive and unnecessary fire safety measures being put in place which are not
proportionate to the risks. Similar concerns have also been raised by the Regulatory Review
Group and the Federation of Small Businesses.
At the recent Ministerial Advisory Group meeting, chaired by Mr Ewing and including
representatives of fire board conveners and Chief Officers, it was agreed that guidance for
this sector would be withdrawn. It was further agreed that a working group, including tourism
industry representatives, will be convened to produce new guidance, which will be subject to
full consultation. As a consequence, the scope of the existing guidance document 'Practical
Fire Safety Guidance for Small Premises Providing Sleeping Accommodation' (small guide)
will be amended.
Accordingly, the benchmarks in the small guide should not be used in respect of those bed
and breakfast establishments where guests are accommodated in the proprietor's own home
and which fell within the scope of the small guide in terms of size (paragraph 5 of Chapter 2
of the guide). However, the 'small guide' will remain in place for other sectors.
Chief Officers will wish to take this information into account in determining their Service's
activity in the enforcement of the fire safety duties in Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005,
as amended. To avoid conflict with the revised guidance, which shall be issued as soon as
practicable, enforcement officers should no longer rely on the benchmarks in the small guide
as being appropriate for small bed and breakfast type establishments. It is therefore
recommended that fire and rescue services reschedule their routine audit and enforcement
activity in this sector until such time as the revised guidance is available. However, cases
where serious risk is discovered should still be acted upon and prohibition notices issued
where appropriate and complaints regarding fire safety in premises should continue to be
investigated."
From the above it would seem that for the present, in practical terms, B&Bs are to be removed from the scope of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 legislation - at least that is my interpretation. This does not of course mean that B&B operators should not ensure the safety of their guests from fire, and indeed any other risks, as they have been doing all along as a legal obligation.
There is still the underlying situation as to whether such small B&Bs are indeed within the scope of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 law in any case, on the grounds that they are used by the owner as his private dwelling, which premises are exempted. Expert opinion from several legally experienced people strongly suggests that this is the case, despite the civil servants' opinion to the contrary. This has not yet been tested in court.
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Alan
Thanks for the info, it will be interesting to see what the amended scope will say regarding small B & B's, I wonder if it will follow the steps taken and guidance provided south of the border, lets hope this amended guidance is issued soon, whether or not it is of any benefit, maybe you can provide your thoughts on that.
I dont see B & B's being removed from the scope of the Act as you do, but fine tuning of what is deemed risk proportionate in each case will hopefully be made clearer for all, as you say yourself B & B owners need to ensure the safety of their guests in case of fire.
You indicate in your first post that the SFRAU, have withdrawn existing guidance already, If that is the case, cant see this mentioned yet in the SGov website for all to see.
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I dont see B & B's being removed from the scope of the Act as you do,
Ricardo, It's not whether they will or will not be removed, it's whether the law as drafted actually brings small B&Bs within its scope. As I said, several people, far more legally expert than myself have confirmed to me that, in their opinion, they are excluded. Only legal action in court will determine this by case law and clearly small owner-run businesses are not generally disposed to take on the might of the Fire Service in court. However, all it takes is one determined person to do so with good legal counsel behind him and there could well be a result hugely embarrassing for the Fire Service and government. It may be that government hopes that by easing the audit prescriptions (for that is what they are rather than any form of risk assessment as the law actually demands) they may forestall such a situation. If that is the case, however, it will remain as an unexploded bomb, so to speak, for the future, as even an action taken by the FRS with good cause, such as genuine negligence by a B&B owner, might be defeated using this "loophole". I am on record as having said that if the law is to cover small B&Bs it needs to be amended with those premises specifically included as for instance are HMOs. Whatever happens it does look as if sector representatives are going to be consulted, and hopefully listened to, something sadly lacking in the past.
Re no mention on the website I expect that due to the Christmas holiday the staff are too busy partying! I can assure readers that the details already supplied are correct. I have had several letters from MSPs today with copies of the draft.
May I wish all the forum guys a Happy Christmas and a paucity of fires in the New Year.
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Yes Alan see what you are saying exactly, but for me small B & B's should not be exempted, or even removed from the scope at all. I await with great excitement as to the outcome, hope we are all satisfied with the outcome of this sorry mess.
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On a point of accuracy the then Scottish Exec, now Scottish Government, did a fantastic job in consultation on the guides, which is more than can be said for their chums in the CLG, who did very little useful consultation and, for example, never checked with the care industry as to whether, as recommended in the care homes guide, a sub-compatment in a care home can be evacuated in 2.5 minutes. This is not an invidious comparison between scotland and england but a mere matter of factual contrast.
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On a point of accuracy the then Scottish Exec, now Scottish Government, did a fantastic job in consultation on the guides
I'm afraid I must disagree most strongly with that statement where the B&B sector is concerned. If they had done so, the current fiasco resulting in withdrawal of the guidance would not have occurred. The devil being in the detail, the effects on that sector were not appreciated until the guidance information had been produced, following which their well-founded objections were totally ignored. I have written evidence of this from more than one source.
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Alan, I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement. The original consultees for the guides were as follows:
Local Government
Convenors of joint fire and rescue boards
Chief Officers of the fire and rescue services
Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA)
Chief Executives of local authorities
Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (CoSLA)
Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Manager (SOLACE)
Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) (ACPOS)
Scottish Parliament
Justice 2 Committee
Scottish Labour Party
Scottish Liberal Democrats
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party
Scottish Nationalist Party
Scottish Socialist Party
Scottish Green Party
Scottish Senior Citizens' Unity Party
Dennis Canavan, MSP
Ms Jean Turner, MSP
Ms Margo MacDonald, MSP
Scottish Youth Parliament
Scottish Parliament's Information Centre
European Parliament
Scottish MEPs
Other Government Departments/Organisations
Scottish Fire Services College
Fire Service College (Moreton-in-Marsh)
Health and Safety Executive
Ministry of Defence
Scottish Environment Protection Agency
Chief Executive, Scottish Prison Service
Scotland Office
National Assembly for Wales
Northern Ireland Executive
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
Historic Scotland
Health Protection Scotland
Scottish Commission for the Regulation of Care
Office of the Charity Regulator
Department of Health, Social Security and Public Safety
Scottish Building Standards Agency
Building Standards Advisory Committee
Scottish Enterprise
Highlands and Islands Enterprise
Trade Unions/Staff Associations
Fire Brigades Union (FBU)
Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC)
Retained Firefighters Union (RFU)
Fire Officers' Association
Association of Principal Fire Officers
UNISON
GMB Scotland
Transport and General Workers' Union
Professional Bodies/Trade Associations
Institution of Fire Engineers
Association of British Insurers
Emergency Planning Society
Forestry and Timber Association
Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in Scotland Building Control Forum
Scottish Association of Building Standards Managers
The British Hospitality Association
Scottish Personal Assistant Employers Network
Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland
Society of Chief Officers of Trading Standards in Scotland
Cold Storage and Distribution Federation
Equality and Diversity Groups
Positive Action in Housing
Commission for Racial Equality
Equal Opportunities Commission
Scottish Human Rights Centre
African and Caribbean Network
West of Scotland Racial Equality Council
Grampian Racial Equality Council
Tayside Racial Equality Council
Central Scotland Racial Equality Council
Edinburgh and Lothians Racial Equality Council
Scottish Gypsy/Traveller Association
Scottish Refugee Council
Black Community Development Project
BEMIS
Inclusion Scotland
Scottish Disability Equality Forum
Disability Rights Commission
Enable
SENSE Scotland
Capability Scotland
Royal National Institute for the Blind (RNIB)
Royal National Institute for Deaf People (RNID)
Scottish Association for Mental Health
Scottish Council on Deafness
Glasgow Women's Library
Engender
Equality Network
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Youth
Age Concern Scotland
Help the Aged
OUTRIGHT Scotland
Scottish Consortium for Learning Disability
National Autistic Society Scotland
The Scottish Society for Autism
Deafblind Scotland
Deaf Action
British Deaf Association Scotland
EMPOWER
Black Environment Network
Scottish Council for Minorities Rights
Religious Groups
Action of Churches Together in Scotland
Scottish Interfaith Council
Scottish Catholic Education Service
Church of Scotland Education Department
Evangelical Alliance (Scotland)
Free Church of Scotland
Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
International Society for Krishna Consciousness (Scotland)
Methodist Church
Scottish Churches Parliamentary Officer
Scottish Council of Jewish Communities
UK Islamic Mission
Radio Ramzan
Glasgow Central Mosque
Care Sector
Woodlands Education Trust
North West Elderly Day Care Center
Scottish Institute for Residential Child Care
Relatives and Residents Association
Alzheimer Scotland
Key Housing Association
Community Care Providers Scotland
CrossReach
Aberlour Child Care Trust
Barnardos
Scottish Care
Abbeyfield Society for Scotland Ltd
Quarriers
BUPA Care Homes
BUPA Care Services
Scottish Social Services Council
Association of Directors of Social Work (ADSW)
Association of Headteachers of Residential Special Schools
NCH (formerly known as National Children's Home)
Turning Point
Scottish Out of School Care Network
Business Sector
Confederation of British Industry (CBI) Scotland
Federation of Small Businesses
Forum of Private Businesses
Institute of Directors Scotland
Scottish Chambers of Commerce
Scottish Retail Consortium
Scottish Food and Drink Federation
Fire Industry Confederation
Scotch Whisky Association
The Malt Distillers Association of Scotland
The Cinemas Exhibitors' Association
British Greyhound Racing Board
National Greyhound Racing Club Ltd
British Horseracing Board
National Federation of Retail Newsagents
Scottish Beer and Pub Association
Scottish Business in the Community
Scottish Consumer Council
Scottish Football Association
Scottish Grocers' Federation
Scottish Licensed Trade Association
Scottish Premier League
Scottish Rugby Union
Scottish Council for Development and Industry
Association of British Bookmakers
National Association of Bookmakers Ltd
Scottish Independent Bookmakers Association
Bar, Entertainment and Dance Association
British Casino Association
Association of British Theatre Technicians
UK Warehousing Association
NHS Scotland/Other medical
Chief Executives, NHS Boards
Chief Executives, Special Boards
British Dental Association (Scottish branch)
British Medical Association (Scottish branch)
British Heart Foundation
British Lung Foundation
Cancer Research UK
Macmillan Cancer Relief
Marie Curie Cancer Relief
Chest, Heart and Stroke Scotland
Diabetes UK, Scotland
The State Hospitals Board for Scotland
Scottish Ambulance Service
NHS Scotland (Property and Environment Forum)
NHS Quality Improvement Scotland
The Scottish Health Council
Royal College of Nursing
Royal College of Physicians
Royal College of Surgeons
Royal Society of Edinburgh
Education sector
Scottish Council of Independent Schools
Association of Scottish Colleges
General Teaching Council for Scotland
Universities Scotland
Scottish Parent Teacher Council
The Scottish School Board Association
Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council
Learning and Teaching Scotland
Head Teachers Association of Scotland
Transport
Confederation of Passenger Transport
First Scotrail
Virgin Trains
GNER
Scottish City Link
National Express
British Ports Association
UK Major Ports Group
Caledonian MacBrayne Ltd
Northlink Orkney and Shetland Ferries Ltd
Orkney Ferries
P & O Scottish Ferries
Stena Line Ltd
BAA Edinburgh
BAA Glasgow
BAA Aberdeen
Glasgow Prestwick International Airport
Dundee Airport
Highlands and Islands Airport Ltd
British Midland
British Airways
Easyjet
Loganair
Ryanair
Scotairways
British European
The National Taxi Association
Strathclyde Passenger Transport
The Chamber of Shipping
Clydeport Ltd
Forth Ports Plc
Stagecoach Scotland
Shipping Services Advisory Committee North
Shipping Services Advisory Committee South
Shipping Services Advisory Committee Clyde
Voluntary
Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations (SCVO)
Volunteer Development Scotland
Learning Link Scotland
Association of Chief Officers of Scottish Voluntary Organisations
Salvation Army Scotland
Voluntary Sector Services Workforce Unit
Scottish Civic Trust
Others
Scottish Civic Forum
Fire Protection Association
Fire Service Research and Training Trust
Fire Services National Benevolent Fund
Building Research Establishment
Arson Prevention Bureau
Direct Payments Scotland
National Trust for Scotland
Association of Scottish Community Councils
Citizens Advice Scotland
Scottish Houses in Multiple Occupation Network Group
Scottish Youth Hostels Association
Scottish Association of Local Sports Councils
Sportscotland
Scottish Tourism Forum
Visitscotland
Association of Scottish Visitor Attractions
The Royal Highland Agricultural Society
The Royal Highland Education Trust
Keep Scotland Beautiful
Friends of the Earth Scotland
Copyright Libraries
I do, however, acknowledge that they forgot the Californian Hostel for Fallen and Wayward Women and the Japanese Scotch Whisky Association. However, both of these organizations only had to ask and they too would have received the consultation pack, and could have it in their own language if they wanted.
Whether the guidance is right or wrong, it got one helluva consultation, which I reiterate was not offered to the public in england and wales.
It could not perhaps be that some of the B&Bs have fallen below the radar of fire legislation in the past and now dont like having to provide fire precautions could it? I agree that the AFD recommendations are very onerous, but there was plenty of time for people to say so.
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I think you missed one - didn't they consult you as well?
Princess
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yes but that was cos i am one of scotland's sons!!!!
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Colin,
What about a weekend at Mr Keith's B&B in the New Year - it looks very nice on the website?
Princess
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Could do but there are nicer areas of scotland than D&G, though the local fire and rescue service are a very nice bunch of chaps in my experience.
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Alan, I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement. The original consultees for the guides were as follows
Colin. Thanks for proving my point. Out of the whole list you provide not one B&B nor trade organisation specifically supporting B&Bs is included, with the arguable exception of the FSB who have of course many other trade sector members. Even so, as I pointed out before, the prescriptive details that specifically caused the problem were not apparent until the guidance itself was produced.
P.S. Re latest posts, any of you will be welcome to book in with us for a stay in this beautiful region of Scotland - Sorry Colin - There are no areas nicer than D&G - just different, and yes, some of the local FRS guys are very decent. I've had a number of discussions with them recently.
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Alan, Visit scotland and as you say the FSB were perfectly able to represent your views, or alternatively you could have obtained the consultation document yourself. Also, what about the scottish tourist forum???? I cannot see how an alleged problem was not obvious at the consultation stage. To the exent that the guides are a bit heavy for small premises (which they may be), it is not to a very great extent, nor is it likely to break the bank unless the piggy is almost empty in any case. With regard to the beauty of scotland, can i suggest that you visit torridon or the north west coast? Having said that, after hertfordshire, i suppose most areas of scotland seem great?? If we have time going to the most beautiful parts of scotland, can the princess and i divert from the M74 and drop in for afternoon tea in january?
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Alan, Visit scotland and as you say the FSB were perfectly able to represent your views, or alternatively you could have obtained the consultation document yourself. Also, what about the scottish tourist forum???? I cannot see how an alleged problem was not obvious at the consultation stage. To the exent that the guides are a bit heavy for small premises (which they may be), it is not to a very great extent, nor is it likely to break the bank unless the piggy is almost empty in any case. With regard to the beauty of scotland, can i suggest that you visit torridon or the north west coast? Having said that, after hertfordshire, i suppose most areas of scotland seem great?? If we have time going to the most beautiful parts of scotland, can the princess and i divert from the M74 and drop in for afternoon tea in january?
VisitScotland are a public sector body and my informants tell me they weren't interested (except for one lone individual). The FSB aren't specifically focussed on B&Bs. Relatively few B&Bs are members. The fact is that few B&Bs actually knew about the new legislation. None were directly informed to my knowledge. At risk of repeating myself, the law appears to exclude them anyway. Part-time businesses grossing only a few thousand per annum can't afford the expensive alterations often demanded and a number here have already closed. All the foregoing is now history however as the authorities here, recognising they have made a mistake (though they are unlikely to admit that as such in public) have agreed to go back to the drawing board. It remains to be seen whether the eventual solution is a worthwhile improvement, but at least now proper consultation is on the cards. For your information I am now a board member of the STF, representing South Scotland, but not early enough to be involved in the original consultation which I can't really comment on here. I have seen most parts of Scotland, including the places you mention, but still prefer D&G. You are of course most welcome to call in and have a coffee with my wife and me in January on your way to (allegedly) more beautiful parts of Scotland, assuming I am not away at the time. Just give us a ring. (number is on our website). Interestingly we lived in Hertfordshire till 1997 (St Albans).
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Alan:
It is hardly the fault of the then Scottish Executive if VisitScotland (allegedly) were not interested in the excellent work the civil servants did in trying to ellicit as much stakeholder comment as possible. (Bad things, you will recall, are what happens when good people stay silent). Also, the fact that they are a public body does not make them bad people! The role of the FSB is to represent small businesses of all sorts. If the B&B industry wanted representation, it is no one's fault if they chose not to be members. Other than sending civil servants on holiday to the remote areas of Scotland, it is difficult to see how they were expected to seek consultation directly. They also spent a small fortune laying on seminars to educate microfirms, such as B&B owners once the legislation came into force. One might ask how the little B&B people learned of food hygiene legislation as it was coming along (they do know about food hygiene, I hope!). The interpretation of the law is a matter for people with wigs and doubtful nocturnal activities. I did not read in the epistle from Scottish government that they realised that they had made a mistake. There is not perhaps an element of spin here, is there? I am sure now that you are involved it will all end happily. The Princess and I look forward to partaking of afternoon tea. Could you please ensure that there is some Talisker on tap, along with freshly baked scones. I know you lived in Hertfordshire- that is why I made the comment. The only thing good to come from there is the Fire Research Station (as was) and, of course, the Princess herself.
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I know you lived in Hertfordshire- that is why I made the comment. The only thing good to come from there is the Fire Research Station (as was) and, of course, the Princess herself.
H'mm How much more do you know about me? Not that my former history is any sort of secret.
We could discuss in detail all the various points you make some of which I at least partly accept, but I default to the realities of life, i.e. that ordinary people usually know how to manage thing by commonsense and experience rather than because of imposed regulation. B&Bs have successfully supported tourism is Scotland for many years without poisoning, burning to death or otherwise harming their guests to any significant degree before the onset of any modern-day legislation. It is a fact that the imposition of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 has caused and will continue to cause serious damage to the industry unless its interpretation is amended. I should perhaps say that I have no specific complaint about the law as such. The issue is the manner in which it is being interpreted and enforced. I suggest we call a truce here and wait and see what transpires.
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I know that you are older and not half as good looking as me, nor do you have my rapier wit and sparkling repartee.
Sadly, if everyone followed common sense there would be no need for enforcement of anything, heavy handed, lighter touch or otherwise.
When I did my post grad degree in fire safety, we were taken to a works in edinburgh (a city of the likes D&G and indeed the rest of the known universe can only wonder at and admire) which had suffered a whacking great fire because, in the course of shot blasting, they needed to heat the air to reduce moisture content and did so with an amateurish little burner with a domestic-style rubber hose, which, surprise surprise got worn, leaked gas and started a fire. "But..." they lamented, "we did it that way for years and there was never a problem".
It was first of 374834774 times I have heard about how there has never been a fire, never had anyone killed until of course they had a fire and sometimes had people killed. The first time I heard it in professional practice was when I recommeded lightning protection for a giant chapel, one of the most architecturally important buildings in Europe (allegedly), and I was told that, ever since King Henry built it, it had never been struck by lightning. Now, as you know, Alan, I am a man of quick thinking and rapier wit, and so I told the assembled committee of highly brilliant academics that, in that case, their time must be just about up and they should get it installed as quickly as possible. All of us in fire safety, Alan, spend our careers listening to people telling us it will never happen until it does. Then we have Draconian legislation that we all refer to as "stable door" legislation because we need to wait for people to die before we impose fire precautions. London Underground had small fires on escalators that they failed to address because they had never got out of control... well until King's Cross.
To be fair, if there is a very large estate of properties with a very large number of nights spent safely, that is a form of risk assessment, based on massive data. However, it goes to the extent of precautions required, rather than leaving premises below the radar of legislation. And think of it this way, Alan, proper hotels have a fantastic fire safety record (well they did until the Penhallow fire), and, statistically, you are much safer in a hotel than a domestic dwelling, which is where around 75-80% of fire deaths occur. So, its true that you are as safe in your wee B&B as you are in a simple domestic dwelling........ sadly that does not say much for your safety.
The princess and I shall, instead, be staying in the five star Caley Hotel, in the city that forms the heart of the known universe and that never ever leaves my own heart, which is a Hilton hotel the likes of which can only be approached by that in Belfast, a city to which I intend to trot off next week possibly for some of the amber nectar. We will, nevertheless, take you up on your generous offer of a complimentary afternoon tea en route.
Ps I never accept a truce, only ignominious defeat.
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I live in sunny Skegness on the East Coast, and I deal with litterally hundreds of B&Bs, hotels etc (skegness and the east coast is full of them).
Anyhow I have the same story "this building has been here since Moses was a lad, and we have had a fire".
The sea front is a lovely place full of bars with accomadation above them, again in the last 100 years none have had a fire. So on your theory why should any of these have to comply with fire safety requirements.
Well in the last year we have had two massive fires on the sea front, One completely demolished an amusement arcade, bars/night club and the accomadation above. The second two bars and two lots of accomadaton. Now none of these accomadation buildings had 100s of rooms, no just a few rooms each.
The second one has been commented that had it not been for a fire alarm through out every one might not have made it.
So after seeing this first hand I would like to say why should your guests have less fire protection.
I have my hoops I have to jump through to run my buisness and you have yours, I just hope that if in your life time someone dies in a small B&B you will go and visit their family and explain why you feel fire precausions are not required in a small accomadation block. In my eyes if the fire reform order saves just one life it has been worth it.
You have stated that it is not proportional to risk, can you please explain what you feel is out of proportion.
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I can see this from both sides , unfortunately there is a problem here called paying guests . As soon as you accept the coinage of the realm you are drawn into this .
The far off days of a week at the coast in a friendly B&B was lovely , people just got on with it , they are now switched on and aware throughout multi media .
Someone god forbid gets killed or maimed and there was no legislation in place , front page news.
So you are dammed if you do and dammed if you dont , its just the way it is Im afraid .
I wouldnt have thought 10 years ago I would be paying 8 quid for the privilege of driving into the smoke , and in excess of 40 quid to park the motor.
Hey maybe the 70s were better (with the exception of flares) Kurnal is still waring his I believe.
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Ps I never accept a truce, only ignominious defeat.
Colin, I was only trying to save you from that embarassment. Youth, good looks, rapier wit and sparkling repartee are, I fear, no match for my devastating logic, extensive life experience, huge database of information and vast network of highly qualified contacts and moles, some deeply inserted within your own camp. Little of this has, as yet, been deployed, but as a small return of fire, you may deal with the following.
I appreciate your anecdotes, but as you know, statistics can mislead. B&Bs cannot be separated from other dwellings in fire statistics and the figures for dwellings are pulled down by fires caused by factors relevant to - shall we say - lower social order housing. Smoking, chip pans and drink (the latter not however shown in statistics) cause most fires. (I don't need to tell you this, but you may wish to note that I have done my homework on causes of fire). Logic tells us that B&Bs overall are much safer than the average dwelling even though there are no figures to prove this. B&Bs are non-smoking and are generally better maintained than other homes. Owners have always taken a duty of care to guests and fire safety is only one aspect of that. What experts such as yourself do not appear to appreciate is that total removal of risk is neither possible, nor required, under HSE guidelines. Provided risk is managed to acceptable levels (not maximum possible) an owners duty is satisfied. Where a change in operation is envisaged (say by fitting extra smoke detectors etc.) the question is what reduction in risk is achieved against the cost of doing so? This is the concept of proportionality included in the Act yet so readily ignored by the FRS. Evidence such as it is more than suggests that safety levels are already well within acceptable levels - hence the protest against unnecessary costs. Prove to me that this is not so and I will admit I'm wrong.
I will look forward to meeting you and your partner if you are able to call in and may even produce one of my own selected malts (though Talisker is not one of them) for your pleasure, should I decide you are worthy of it.
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In my eyes if the fire reform order saves just one life it has been worth it.
You have stated that it is not proportional to risk, can you please explain what you feel is out of proportion.
Thomas, life is a risk business. For example, if motorway speed limits were reduced to 40 mph road deaths would be reduced by a significant factor. This isn't done, because the national loss of productivity involved would mean fewer resources would be available for the NHS, for instance, leading to an even greater loss of lives than those saved in the first place. That is why the term proportionality is used. Bluntly, it is acceptable for a small number of deaths by fire to occur if the cost of reducing that number was such as to cause a larger number of fatalities to occur elsewhere. HSE use a term VPD (value of preventing death) as a statistical tool to assist in decision-making where risk to life exists. Its current value is around £1 million/life, i.e. it is worth expending £1 million if 1 life is saved as a result. If the cost per (estimated statistical) life saved is significantly in excess of that, it is deemed to be disproportionate. The document "Reducing Risks, protecting people" available from the HSE website at http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/r2p2.pdf explains this.
Nothing I have said should be taken to mean that B&B owners should not ensure that their guests are at risk from fire nor that suitable and reasonable precautions should not be taken. The question is whether burdensome legislation and heavy-handed enforcement are necessary to ensure that. My belief is that it is not, and no evidence to contradict this has been offered from any quarter.
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I can see this from both sides , unfortunately there is a problem here called paying guests . As soon as you accept the coinage of the realm you are drawn into this ..
Who said this was the case? Why does receiving a consideration appear to make a difference? Why should your friends and relatives staying at your own home free of charge not be protected from the risk of fire?
I mean no offence - I am just pointing out something here to stimulate discussion.
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Alan ,
The bloke across the road from me started keeping Ostriches , and claimed to the Planning department his massive extension was a sanctuary , to get around the law . (Planning Denied)
What I was talking about was a premises where a fee is charged , your term consideration , is that different from the normal way of paying , can you enlighten me please?
My vehicle insurance does not cover me for hire or reward , if it did I would be a taxi or minicab , end of story.
By the way , just had a look at your drum , and it does look rather nice.
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Alan:
1. Is there some rule that prevents inhabitants of B&Bs being fed chips by the wee wifey who runs it, or that prevents her or her guests from getting ratted, thereby eliminating the risk?
2. I just love it when people make assertions and then say that of course there is no evidence to prove it.
3. Forgive me for yawning, but I learned all the concepts of value of lives saved etc when you still lived in Hertfordshire, as has just about anyone else in the fire safety profession. It was subject of a fire research paper in the 1970s and it is something we teach to fire officers in explaining the concept of reasonably practicable. Even if we didnt, the Scottish Government explain it perfectly eloquently in guidance on enforcement, so you could simply have read their stuff, so saving you all that research and allowing you time to nip down to the cash and carry to get some Talisker in. It is also used commonly in CLG RIAs, so even they know about it, which tells you how simple and well known it must be.
4. Equally, I learned something that you have missed from your research or you would have been able to understand the point of Count Galleon of Battersea Rise, namely the difference between imposed risk and voluntary risk. You and your friends that you entertain at your home are free to climb the mountains (sorry, small hills) of D&G without any safety equipment, but it is not a risk that is acceptable for employees or for you to impose on people paying for your services. That is why it is often suggested that the expenditure for a life saved in rail safety should be more than that in the case of road safety, since road safety is to some extent under your own control whereas rail safety is not.
5. I note that you avoid telling young Tam what the disproportionate precautions are, or in what way enforcement is heavy handed. Hand waving is not objective. I do not agree that most F&RS in scotland ignore the concept of proportionality. You refer to evidence such as this, but earlier said there was no evidence, so which is it?
By the way, I dont really have a camp, just a modest 4 bedroom detached, complete with three cats, smoke alarms and a couple of quasi-emergency light fittings I currently have on extended life trials, nor do I have any axe to grind, since I neither flog accommodation nor enforce legislation.
The Princess and I are willing to have one of your own malts though it would please us greatly, if, in return for all the helpful advice i have given you above, you could nip down to the cash and carry and buy some Talisker in preparation for the royal visit.
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Galleon, Alan lived in Hertfordshire not the east end. Having not been acquainted with the kray twins, he will not understand terms such as "drum".
Alan, as your adviser, "bloke across the road" means neighbour.
"End of story" means quod erat demonstrandum.
Drum comes from cockney rhyming slang drum and bass=place.
Galleon, What happened to the ostriches?
I agree the drum , i mean place, looks rather nice. All it needs to set it off right is a bottle of talisker. At the caley hotel, they do three different vintages of talisker, only two of which i can afford.
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By the way , just had a look at your drum , and it does look rather nice.
Galeon, for the record, Colin continues to underestimate my knowledge base. Despite not having the Kray Twins amongst my circle of friends, I am well aquainted with southern terminology such as "drum" & "bloke" etc. so don't be concerned about using such terminology. The term consideration does just mean taking a payment. I meant only to point out the apparent illogicality of the situation where people are staying in identical physical situations, in a standard family house i.e. friends or family in one case and paying guests in another, yet in the latter case only, allegedly at such a risk that rigidly enforced legislation is deemed necessary to apply to safeguard them. I will deal with this also in response to Colin's later post when time permits.
Thanks also for your kind words about our place which, being of a larger size than the B&Bs I've been referring to was previously subject to a fire certificate and already has the usual alarms & fire doors fitted.
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Hello Alan,
Sorry if im being a little dim here but I still do not understand what you mean by disproportionate precautions.
I will explain what I mean and then perhaps you will explain your side.
Surely. These B&Bs have to do a fire risk assessment just like the tiny corner shops and the little workshops etc.
So in the risk assessment surely a competent assessor will consider risk against cost (real basic stuff) and come up with a plan. Sometimes it might just be a fire blanket in the kitchen and a couple of linked smoke detectors and a written plan of what to do in the event of fire.
I am assuming that the Fire and Rescue services in Scotland work in a simular fashion to England, they will come along and do an audit and as long as you have a robust fire risk assessment they will either accept it or you will have to justify it.Simple as that.
I have never had any of my risk assessments challenged yet.
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Tam. No doubt one of Alan's many problems (aside from the fact that its always freezing in D&G during the winter) is that the scottish government guide on small sleeping risks does not just ask for a couple of linked smoke alarms but one in each bedroom. Equally, a detector (of some sort) is also advocated in the English equivalent guide but no one is troubling big gordie on this matter in england or wales.
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Hello Alan,
Sorry if im being a little dim here but I still do not understand what you mean by disproportionate precautions.. Sometimes it might just be a fire blanket in the kitchen and a couple of linked smoke detectors and a written plan of what to do in the event of fire.
I am assuming that the Fire and Rescue services in Scotland work in a simular fashion to England,
Tam, of course you're not being dim, but the nuts and bolts of this are quite complicated. In Scotland (or to be accurate in D&G as far as I know it) the FRS considers, as Colin has stated in his last post, that for even the smallest B&B, smoke detectors are necessary in every bedroom and most other rooms leading on to an escape route irrespective of the shortness or configuration of such escape routes etc. Fire resisting doors on these room are also required, though in some cases existing doors, if solid type may be accepted, perhaps with treatments such as fire retardand coatings etc. In many such cases the costs to comply are considerable and may also involve alterations such as removal of glazed screens etc. It is not just the cost, but the damage to the aesthetics and quality of the building that result which is causing owners to choose to cease the business rather than comply. These requirements are what I believe to be disproportionate. Also I don't say that owners shouldn't carry out a risk assessment and I believe that the general obligation to carry out risk assessment for safety should cover this, even if the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 does not apply. I am forever re-stating this, but I accept that B&Bs have an obligation to ensure their guests are safe. The issues are whether the more onerous prescriptions assumed by the FRS are necessary and whether the audit, enforcement and tick-box methodology is better than the commonsense approach which has been practised up to now. Hope that clarifies the situation.
As for Colin's comment about our wonderful region I must point out that Dumfries & Galloway enjoys the benefit of the gulf stream on its shores and is in places further south than parts of England. Semi-tropical plants grow in gardens in the region. see http://www.rbge.org.uk/the-gardens/logan
His comment regarding winter temperature is, as is the case with many of his assertions, flawed, to say the least. Don't take his (or my) word for it - come and see for yourself. www.visitsouthwestscotland.com
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Tam, As in many of Alan's comments, they are somewhat of a legend in that they are based on facts but have been somewhat distorted from reality. Plain glazing has no material fire resistance, so there is no point in having a glazed transom above a door of any appreciable fire resistance. And if you really want the gulf stream and tropical gardens you should go further north than D&G. I know that facts must be frustrating for Alan, but on a point of accuracy, the predicted temperature for Dumfries tonight is minus 1 degree, whereas in Torridon/Achnasheen, which I previously recommended to Alan, they will be rejoicing in 2 degrees of heat ABOVE Freezing. QED!!!!!
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Dumfries has a semi decent downhill mountain bike track at the Ae forest but take body armour if you go into town for a night out
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Tam, the predicted temperature for Dumfries tonight is minus 1 degree, whereas in Torridon/Achnasheen, which I previously recommended to Alan, they will be rejoicing in 2 degrees of heat ABOVE Freezing. QED!!!!!
Anyone with a minimal grasp of meteorology will appreciate that on any given day, anomolies on temperature between regions will occur. The average temperature in Scotland is higher in the south, see http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_temperature_in_Scotland
I fear with these feeble attempts to undermine my credibility, Colin continues to expose the weakness in his logic. How sad. I was hoping for a more challenging contest.
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Dumfries has a semi decent downhill mountain bike track at the Ae forest but take body armour if you go into town for a night out
Dumfries is no worse than many town centres, Graeme, but thanks for your credit for the 7-stanes mountain biking venue at Ae forest. Dalbeattie is considered excellent too. http://www.7stanes.gov.uk/forestry/achs-5rnffw This thread is becoming a good marketing opportunity for us in D&G. Chris - Hope this doesn't contravene forum rules.
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I think this topic has been enlightening with regards to fire safety in B&Bs and the climate of southern Scotland but has now run its course.
Locked.
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Alan, who started this topic, has asked me to re-open it. I'm happy to do so, but would request that posters keep on topic.
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Further Developments - http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=8372&viewcomment=1
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For those interested, it has now been agreed by the scottish government that the guidance information relating to self-catering premises will also be subject to review at the same time as that for small B&Bs, although no instructions to withdraw the guidance information as it affects self-catering have been issued. At this time it is believed that in Scotland no self-catering premises have been subject to an audit visit (unless someone knows to the contrary).
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By the way , just had a look at your drum , and it does look rather nice.
The term consideration does just mean taking a payment. I meant only to point out the apparent illogicality of the situation where people are staying in identical physical situations, in a standard family house i.e. friends or family in one case and paying guests in another, yet in the latter case only, allegedly at such a risk that rigidly enforced legislation is deemed necessary to apply to safeguard them. I will deal with this also in response to Colin's later post when time permits.
Thanks also for your kind words about our place which, being of a larger size than the B&Bs I've been referring to was previously subject to a fire certificate and already has the usual alarms & fire doors fitted.
My suggestion to you alan is to only have friends and family to stay as it seems you have little regard for the lives of those that would pay to stay at your "drum" and other "drums" like it. Some "reasonable measures" as in the scottish guides,is all that is required and these need not cost a fortune. Other than that you might wish to engage the services of a fortune teller with her crystal ball, to indicate to you when and if you're going to have a fire.. Or at lower cost check out the tea leaves in the bottom of your cup, after receiving the benefit of a warm refreshing beverage. Tiffin anyone?